chabanais
Member
not that i would keep it loaded without the safety on just curious.
Is the 91/30 drop safe?
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TimboKhan
Member
Well, I suspect he was talking about if the gun would fire unintentionally if dropped, not if it would break in half. To the best of my knowledge, the answer is yes. I might be grossly misinformed, but I don't recall ever hearing a story about a AD in a Mosin due to anything but shooter error.
chemist308
Member
Uh...given how the safety works, I wouldn't think of trying it at all. BTW you mean you can actually work the safety on your's?
xsquidgator
Member
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91/30 and drop-safe
Sounds like a good "science experiment"!
My 91/30 safety is difficult but not terrible to operate. My local gunsmith told me that the red army soldiers who had it in the field (how he knew this, I don't know but what he says makes sense) did not use the safety.
Try this: rather than load a round in the chamber and then operate the safety, instead *gently* let the firing pin down by holding the safety thingy and letting it down slowly while you pull the trigger. Then, when you're ready to shoot, cock the spring by pulling back on the safety thing.
Now, I don't know if it's drop safe when the firing pin spring is "down" like this, in fact I bet it's not since the firing pin ought to be sticking out of the bolt face by 0.075" to 0.095" at that point. But if you're holding or carrying the rifle, it's a lot faster to bring it to ready to fire this way, than by struggling with pulling back and rotating the safety.
I don't suspect that the 91/30 was designed to be safe in this sense. As I saw on William Sanders' web site, their philosophy was probably more like 'is not safe, is GUN!"
Sounds like a good "science experiment"!
My 91/30 safety is difficult but not terrible to operate. My local gunsmith told me that the red army soldiers who had it in the field (how he knew this, I don't know but what he says makes sense) did not use the safety.
Try this: rather than load a round in the chamber and then operate the safety, instead *gently* let the firing pin down by holding the safety thingy and letting it down slowly while you pull the trigger. Then, when you're ready to shoot, cock the spring by pulling back on the safety thing.
Now, I don't know if it's drop safe when the firing pin spring is "down" like this, in fact I bet it's not since the firing pin ought to be sticking out of the bolt face by 0.075" to 0.095" at that point. But if you're holding or carrying the rifle, it's a lot faster to bring it to ready to fire this way, than by struggling with pulling back and rotating the safety.
I don't suspect that the 91/30 was designed to be safe in this sense. As I saw on William Sanders' web site, their philosophy was probably more like 'is not safe, is GUN!"
The Deer Hunter
Member
Well, avoid dropping it.
armoredman
Member
Only French rifles are drop safe.
silverlance
Member
the m91/30 does nto have a bayo perm attached. the m44 does.
that said, the m91/30 was meant to be used first as a volley gun (everybody shoots at the same time) and then as a PIKE. as in, long piece of steel with a lance tip to impale CHARGING HORSES on as they came over the trench.
it is VERY drop safe as there is no decocker and it is a tricky business letting the "hammer" i(t's not really a hammer, the trigger is actually sort of a latch release that releases the cocked back cocking piece) down on a chambered round.
HOWEVER if you do manage to let the hammer down gently you have a VERY un-drop safe gun as the firing pin by that point is protruding from the face.
on that note you would have to be a real wierdo to walk around with a "decocked" and chambered m91/30. it would take longer to wrestle the cocking piece back than to simply flip the bolt and chamber a round.
as for whether dropping the gun will damage it any - sure, no such thing as an invincible gun. any gun properly mistreated will blow up, break, etc.
but do remember that the m91/30 had at least HALF its military role designated as a hand-to-hand combat weapon - spear, pike, polearm - what have you.
as such it would have been designed to withstand the brunt of battering stabbing and dropping from bleeding lifehands hands.... yikes.
that said, the m91/30 was meant to be used first as a volley gun (everybody shoots at the same time) and then as a PIKE. as in, long piece of steel with a lance tip to impale CHARGING HORSES on as they came over the trench.
it is VERY drop safe as there is no decocker and it is a tricky business letting the "hammer" i(t's not really a hammer, the trigger is actually sort of a latch release that releases the cocked back cocking piece) down on a chambered round.
HOWEVER if you do manage to let the hammer down gently you have a VERY un-drop safe gun as the firing pin by that point is protruding from the face.
on that note you would have to be a real wierdo to walk around with a "decocked" and chambered m91/30. it would take longer to wrestle the cocking piece back than to simply flip the bolt and chamber a round.
as for whether dropping the gun will damage it any - sure, no such thing as an invincible gun. any gun properly mistreated will blow up, break, etc.
but do remember that the m91/30 had at least HALF its military role designated as a hand-to-hand combat weapon - spear, pike, polearm - what have you.
as such it would have been designed to withstand the brunt of battering stabbing and dropping from bleeding lifehands hands.... yikes.
chabanais
Member
My safety works fine, although it takes some finger strength to turn it. I installed a safety with a ring on it so it's much better and easier to use. I recommend this modification.
I meant a round in the chamber, the bolt has been brought back and closed and you drop the rifle on its butt. The same thing they test for in California. I have tried this with my 91/30 and if you drop it high enough it will fire.
My rifle was built in 1943 so I'm not surpirsed. Just wondering what other people's experiences were.
I meant a round in the chamber, the bolt has been brought back and closed and you drop the rifle on its butt. The same thing they test for in California. I have tried this with my 91/30 and if you drop it high enough it will fire.
My rifle was built in 1943 so I'm not surpirsed. Just wondering what other people's experiences were.
silverlance
Member
They do this with handguns, not rifles. And they do this mainly to get money from handgun manufacturers. the odds of anyone getting shot by a chambered run with a safety on and hammer down is so low that anyone who does get shot by their own gun so is an **#*# and anyone who gets shot by someone else's gun was shot by an ((#$(%#. here i talk of modern handguns and exclude only the lowest quality crap from like the khelber (sP?) pass etc. lets put it this way... you know those hi point 9mm? the really crappy 130$ ones? they passed the CA test with flying colors.
dude... please do this in your concrete basement...
of course the damn thing will fire, buddy.. when the bolt is uncocked the firing pin is sticking all the way out! hell i don't even knwo if it is possible to "let down" the cocking piece on a live round without at least dimpling the primer. please do not ever do this again, and anyone foolhardy enough to "decock" their mosin.. please do so ina safe direction and far away from anyone you care about.
chabanais
Member
Chill out buddy. There was no round in the chamber. I 'dropped' it from a distance of 1 foot from my livingroom floor.
Thanks for politics about California but that wasn't really my question.
Thanks for politics about California but that wasn't really my question.
kcmarine
Member
No, Italian rifles are drop safe, too.
You know, that's why you can get a WWII era Italian rifle cheap.
"Never fired and only dropped once."
rocklock
Member
It varies from rifle to rifle
I have a 91/30 and two M38 rifles. None of them will discharge when dropped butt first from a foot above the floor, a very good "accidental discharge" test, by the way. However, A 91/30 I bought for one of my sons last Christmas, would. It had a very sweet trigger that seemed too good to be true, and it was. The sear engagement points were worn, and would let loose when not only dropped, but when given a smart rap on the side of the receiver. It was corrected by stoning the contact points back square and giving them a slight positive engagement. Yes, this was a rearsenaled model.
I learned about drop testing a number of years ago when I started fooling with triggers, to use as kind of an insurance policy in my ignorance then. Since I started collecting milsurplus, it is standard procedure for me before the rifle ever makes it to the range. Not to sound too preachy, but never assume anything mechanical won't fail, especially safeties. As a hunter safety instructor, we teach never to chamber a round until ready to shoot. Walking around with the firing pin exposed, on top of a live round, will just enforce Darwin's Theory eventually.
I have a 91/30 and two M38 rifles. None of them will discharge when dropped butt first from a foot above the floor, a very good "accidental discharge" test, by the way. However, A 91/30 I bought for one of my sons last Christmas, would. It had a very sweet trigger that seemed too good to be true, and it was. The sear engagement points were worn, and would let loose when not only dropped, but when given a smart rap on the side of the receiver. It was corrected by stoning the contact points back square and giving them a slight positive engagement. Yes, this was a rearsenaled model.
I learned about drop testing a number of years ago when I started fooling with triggers, to use as kind of an insurance policy in my ignorance then. Since I started collecting milsurplus, it is standard procedure for me before the rifle ever makes it to the range. Not to sound too preachy, but never assume anything mechanical won't fail, especially safeties. As a hunter safety instructor, we teach never to chamber a round until ready to shoot. Walking around with the firing pin exposed, on top of a live round, will just enforce Darwin's Theory eventually.
chabanais
Member
I appreciate your clear answer! I only plan to take this rifle to the range for target shooting as I don't hunt and the trigger is very nice on mine. I suppose I can live with the "not drop safe" part. I banged on the side of the stock and it stayed cocked but the 1 foot drop test produced different results.
So it sounds like it's not an unheard of situation. In your opinion, if it were your rifle, would be worth having this situation addressed or not?
So it sounds like it's not an unheard of situation. In your opinion, if it were your rifle, would be worth having this situation addressed or not?
Cosmoline
Member
WITHOUT the safety on? NO! As Rocklock notes, sometimes the sear is worn. Sometimes the screw has backed out. Don't run around cocked and unlocked!! Aside from the risk of dropping, if a branch or anything grabs that trigger it will of course discharge. This nonsense about how Russians never used the safety gets repeated over and over again, and I'm afraid people are running around out there with a hot chamber but won't use the safety. That's reckless!
WITH the safety on, the pin is totally locked out to the receiver itself by the mainspring, and the three-part bolt is shifted out of alignment so firing is impossible. The trigger no longer does anything, and no longer has anything to do with the bolt. I don't know of any other rifles that have as safe a safety. The only risk is if it's not quite engaged, then a sharp blow can take it out of safety. Just wiggle it to check and make sure it's seated.
LEARN TO USE THE SAFETY OR GET A DIFFERENT RIFLE! Even if you only go to the range with it, you MUST know how to operate the safety on your firearm. Esp. a rifle.
WITH the safety on, the pin is totally locked out to the receiver itself by the mainspring, and the three-part bolt is shifted out of alignment so firing is impossible. The trigger no longer does anything, and no longer has anything to do with the bolt. I don't know of any other rifles that have as safe a safety. The only risk is if it's not quite engaged, then a sharp blow can take it out of safety. Just wiggle it to check and make sure it's seated.
LEARN TO USE THE SAFETY OR GET A DIFFERENT RIFLE! Even if you only go to the range with it, you MUST know how to operate the safety on your firearm. Esp. a rifle.
chabanais
Member
Interesting how I asked a simple question yet the answers seem to be about me not the rifle.
Let's try this again...
For people who own a M-N 91/30... if you pretend to chamber a round, drop the rifle on its butt from a distance of 1 foot above the floor... will it "discharge"?
Cheers.
Let's try this again...
For people who own a M-N 91/30... if you pretend to chamber a round, drop the rifle on its butt from a distance of 1 foot above the floor... will it "discharge"?
Cheers.
Cosmoline
Member
It shouldn't, but it might. No rifle I know of is drop safe when unlocked unless it has some kind of integral hammer block like a handgun. Very few long guns, even modern ones, are truly drop safe. This is true even when they have the safety on. One reason I like to hike with Mosins is that they have a rare safety that locks the bolt out of operation, and does not rely on some small part blocking the trigger.
trueblue1776
Member
If you disassemble the bolt on a 91/30, you will see a wee latch on the bolt which gets sprung by the trigger lever which extends >1mm ish. I would say it is not drop safe, even with the safety. The safety could probably be disengaged by the energy of the heavy bolt jarring back. I may try and prove it, if someone will let me borrow a pos Mos Nag (I love mine).
Bazooka Joe71
Member
How is this about you and not the rifle???
chabanais
Member
Reason I ask is when I bought it I dropped it from 1 foot above my floor and it "fired" (well no ammo in it but if there was it would have gone off). I figured old rifle, that's how they were. I installed a different trigger with the ball bearing, which is adjustable, and this did not alter anything really. But I did get a good look at that bar that the trigger "trips" when you squeeze it.
Nobody here ever tried dropped their rifle on its butt from 1 foot above the floor? My S/S shotgun doesn't fail this test.
Is the Mauser K98 the same way?
Interesting discussion!
Uuuhhh....
"LEARN TO USE THE SAFETY OR GET A DIFFERENT RIFLE! Even if you only go to the range with it, you MUST know how to operate the safety on your firearm."
Nobody here ever tried dropped their rifle on its butt from 1 foot above the floor? My S/S shotgun doesn't fail this test.
Is the Mauser K98 the same way?
Interesting discussion!
Uuuhhh....
"LEARN TO USE THE SAFETY OR GET A DIFFERENT RIFLE! Even if you only go to the range with it, you MUST know how to operate the safety on your firearm."
Cosmoline
Member
chabanais, the "you" is a general one. My concern isn't with you, but goes back to a lot of comments on other threads about how nobody ever uses Mosin safeties. It makes me nervous someone will lose a body part, or worse.
chabanais
Member
I maybe phrased it wrong. Thanks for your help guys.
I think the design philosophy at the time (late 1880s) was basically "If you are going to be shooting it, why would you have the safety engaged? If you aren't going to be shooting it, why the hell do you have a round chambered?"
The safeties on my MNs all work, but I can see why soldiers wouldn't use them. Frankly, they are just about impossible to disengage quickly, or without having to fiddle around while you may be under fire.
The safeties on my MNs all work, but I can see why soldiers wouldn't use them. Frankly, they are just about impossible to disengage quickly, or without having to fiddle around while you may be under fire.
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