is the AR-15 reliable enough for SHTF
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wheelgunslinger
Member
Is it just me, or is that display kind of awesome?
Nice.
Nice.
cracked butt
Member
Its not just you
My AK required a break-in period and my AR (and my wife's AR) did not.
The only malfunction I've had in my AR was caused by reloaded ammo that had a flared shoulder from too much crimp. (I.e., it was out of spec.)
My AR is lighter, more accurate, and has better sights than my AK and it is easier to shoot and operate. I'll grab the AR and be sure to keep a bottle of CLP and a cleaning kit in the ammo can or BOB.
The only malfunction I've had in my AR was caused by reloaded ammo that had a flared shoulder from too much crimp. (I.e., it was out of spec.)
My AR is lighter, more accurate, and has better sights than my AK and it is easier to shoot and operate. I'll grab the AR and be sure to keep a bottle of CLP and a cleaning kit in the ammo can or BOB.
leadcounsel
member
Is the AR15 reliable enough for SHTF?
No.
+1
My personal experience: I bought my Bushmaster AR15 new in '02. It will not reliable feed Wolf steel ammo. On my last range trip, due to failure to keep clean (probably shot about 1000 rounds between cleanings, and weapon stored in midwestern climate inside house - no dirt, water, mud, sand, etc. straight from the safe to the truck to the range), the weapon completely froze/locked up and needed 10 minutes of prying to get the bolt out of the star chamber. That would equal dead on the battlefield or SHTF. And that is unacceptable. Considering 1,000 rounds really isn't that much ammo to shoot, and my storage conditions were pretty much ideal, that's a poor performance for a BATTLERIFLE.
In recent tests, the US Military tested the M4 (essentially the same mechanics as the AR15 save 3 round burst) in dirty conditions. The M4 did not fair well.
Soldiers have vocally complained about the gas system of the M16/M4 since its inception. It's failure has directly and indirectly led to the deaths of many US Servicemembers.
I have a personal problem with a BATTLERIFLE that needs to be pampered when it's wet, cold, dirty, sandy, muddy, humid, not perfect ammo or mags, etc... A battle rifle should be RELIABLE, accurate, easy to use, have high capacity and be deadly. The AR15/M4 is most of these things, and we could argue the merits of the 5.56 all day. But the weapon is NOT RELIABLE.
For instance, my Glock handgun will function in the most adverse conditions with minimal cleaning over looooong periods of time. The same is true with the venerable AK47. The AR15 is just plain finiky.
I won't buy another gas AR15.
But I will consider and probably buy a piston driven type AR15 platform system. The platform is an excellent platform and once the reliability is fixed it has excellent potential, even in 5.56.
No.
+1
My personal experience: I bought my Bushmaster AR15 new in '02. It will not reliable feed Wolf steel ammo. On my last range trip, due to failure to keep clean (probably shot about 1000 rounds between cleanings, and weapon stored in midwestern climate inside house - no dirt, water, mud, sand, etc. straight from the safe to the truck to the range), the weapon completely froze/locked up and needed 10 minutes of prying to get the bolt out of the star chamber. That would equal dead on the battlefield or SHTF. And that is unacceptable. Considering 1,000 rounds really isn't that much ammo to shoot, and my storage conditions were pretty much ideal, that's a poor performance for a BATTLERIFLE.
In recent tests, the US Military tested the M4 (essentially the same mechanics as the AR15 save 3 round burst) in dirty conditions. The M4 did not fair well.
Soldiers have vocally complained about the gas system of the M16/M4 since its inception. It's failure has directly and indirectly led to the deaths of many US Servicemembers.
I have a personal problem with a BATTLERIFLE that needs to be pampered when it's wet, cold, dirty, sandy, muddy, humid, not perfect ammo or mags, etc... A battle rifle should be RELIABLE, accurate, easy to use, have high capacity and be deadly. The AR15/M4 is most of these things, and we could argue the merits of the 5.56 all day. But the weapon is NOT RELIABLE.
For instance, my Glock handgun will function in the most adverse conditions with minimal cleaning over looooong periods of time. The same is true with the venerable AK47. The AR15 is just plain finiky.
I won't buy another gas AR15.
But I will consider and probably buy a piston driven type AR15 platform system. The platform is an excellent platform and once the reliability is fixed it has excellent potential, even in 5.56.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
My M14 jammed on cheap crappy imported ammo and some el cheapo magazines.
My G3 jammed up on the same crappy .308 ammo.
My 1918 BAR jammed up when some Korean surplus PS stuff has a case head separation.
My AR has jammed with Wolf.
See any common symptoms here?
ANY rifle can be made to fail if you fed it crappy enough ammo.
The AR platform isn't any more or less sensitive to junk ammo than anything else.
Arguing that ARs suck because one jammed up after 1000 rounds of Wolf, probably the older style with the lacquer on the case, is hardly any proof of a bad rifle design.
Soldiers have complained about their food and equipment since before the Caesars. That's what soldiers do.
That alone does not mean that every complaint is valid, or invalid.
leadcounsel, I'll take that unreliable hunk of junk off your hands.
As for Wolf, I don't think the M4 or M16 is designed to run for extended periods on Wolf. Testing is probably done with M193 and/or M855 since that is mil-spec ammo and Wolf is not.
I've never served, but would a current or past solider or Marine comment on this? How much ammo do soldiers carry at once? I suppose in exceptional circumstances, a battle might consume 1,000 rounds per rifle, but I'd guess these fights are few and far between. How likely is it that an average soldier will fire 500-1,000 rounds in a single battle?
As for Wolf, I don't think the M4 or M16 is designed to run for extended periods on Wolf. Testing is probably done with M193 and/or M855 since that is mil-spec ammo and Wolf is not.
jahwarrior
Member
if you want a rifle that will work no matter what, get eastern bloc hardware; ie., AK47s or SKS rifles. i've never handled one that didn't work they way it was supposed to.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Reading through this silliness, I get the impression that some folks think SHTF means unending battles and firefights. No time to eat, sleep, clean weapons, nada: Only run, run, run, shoot, shoot, shoot.
And the only determinant of reliability is a weapon that never fails, no matter how dirty, no matter how grungy the ammo?
Late-night B movies on TV about post-Armageddon violence are NOT training films...
And the only determinant of reliability is a weapon that never fails, no matter how dirty, no matter how grungy the ammo?
Late-night B movies on TV about post-Armageddon violence are NOT training films...
My franken ar has been through its break in and not a single malf.As far as these shtf "fantasies" they are silly at best.In a real emergency food,water,and shelter are much more important than your weapon choice."Amateurs study strategy,professionals study logistics."
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kcshooter
Member
Oh really? We'll see if you change your opinion when the Zombies are knocking at YOUR door!
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Didn't fare well? Well, it didn't perform as well as the other three rifles in the test. It did however fire 6,000 rounds through ten rifles with a 98.6% success rate despite the equivalent of being in a sandstorm for two hours and being cleaned only every 600 rounds. I think it is also worth noting that many of the failures happened towards the end of the testing cycle and that none of the 40 examples of the four different types of rifles were safe to fire after that particular test due to headspace and wear issues.
That doesn't strike me as something I would call "fragile" or "dainty"; but that is just me.
cracked butt
Member
Toyotas are supposed to be reliable cars as well. If you took a Toyota, fed it garbage gasoline, drive it 75,000 miles without an oil change, never wash it even after driving it though icey salted roads, never checked or changed the battery or coolant, and stored it outside for a year, would you expect it to run flawlessly and reliably when you need it?
The last time I cleaned my AR was after a match a few weeks ago. It had 300+ rounds through it that I had shot in the previous 2 weeks but I kept it well lubed with CLP. What rolled out of the bolt carrier looked like black mud. I would imagine if I left it stored like that, even in 'ideal' storage conditions, I might be complaining about how poor of a battle rifle it is because it was locked up due to hard petrified carbon deposits in the action.
Take care of your stuff and it will take care of you.
Neo-Luddite
Member
The BEST 'SHTF' rifle set up, AR or otherwise, to my thinking, is a set of twins. That, and practice in all aspects with the platform.
No matter what, malfunctions happen; a complete back-up weapon of the same type + spare parts is a good idea in my book.
I've been leaning, more and more, toward E Bloc lately.
M-1's are my first and best choice for, but even THEY like TLC and rub downs with special grease, etc.
My $150 Yugo SKS (still with a cracked firing pin installed) works with O care and concern. I'm considering an AK purchase also for a bit more 'ooomph' and lighter weight to lug.
No matter what, malfunctions happen; a complete back-up weapon of the same type + spare parts is a good idea in my book.
I've been leaning, more and more, toward E Bloc lately.
M-1's are my first and best choice for, but even THEY like TLC and rub downs with special grease, etc.
My $150 Yugo SKS (still with a cracked firing pin installed) works with O care and concern. I'm considering an AK purchase also for a bit more 'ooomph' and lighter weight to lug.
leadcounsel
member
Well, it's certainly not something to sing praises about either!
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I cannot feed the Bushy AR Wolf AT ALL. I tried, believe me, I tried everything. No dice. Can't even get through a single magazine (yes, new Bushy magazines) without several jams. One embarrasing and frustrating trip after another to the range and finally I just gave up with Wolf in .223. And that was back when I cleaned it after every outting.
I don't think I can answer that because of the OPSEC, even though it is common knowledge. But I will say that 1,000 is not a lot of ammo. And in a military firefight, 1,000 rounds might be chewed up quickly.
My typical shooting and storage habbits are what I like to put a weapon through to see how reliable it will be or see what it will endure - a rather mild torture test. I go months without cleaning my Glock, for instance, just to ensure that it will function. The same can be said about the AR. The only difference is the AR fails.
My catastrophic AR failure occurred on Winchester white box brass .223 ammo from Walmart. The bolt froze in place and needed complete tear down and tools to get it un-stuck.
Think about a SHTF scenario where you would need your weapon. Let's take historical ones: LA Riots and Katrina. Maybe you have to pull guard duty on your home or business rooftop all night or wade or swim through deep foul water. Maybe you never even fire your weapon, but it rains all night. Are you confident your wet AR is going to function? Maybe you have to fire it a few times. Do you have time or supplies to tear it down and clean it?
The point I'm trying to make is that I bought a top of the line AR, mags, and know how to clean a weapon. Yet I would want a weapon that doesn't need constant pampering and ideal conditions (mags, ammo, sunny 75 degree day at sea level with 15% humidity) to function as it should.
I've been to plenty of rifle ranges with Soldiers and the failures of the M4 are too commonplace to instill a lot of confidence in the weapon.
Here in Iraq with the talcum powder like dust that covers everything DAILY, you are subjected to cleaning the thing nonstop to make sure it works. That's a high maintenance weapon.
Finally, the M4 had a failure rate of 1.5% in the tests. Yes that's 1.5%!!!! So if your weapon is fouled, meaning after you've begun shooting it and it's spitting carbon into the star chamber, you can EXPECT 1 malfunction every three magazines! 882 stoppages in 6,000 rounds is unacceptable (compared to 226 in the piston driven version)!
Many thousands of rounds thru a M16A2 while in the 82nd. #1 issue=bad mags. Any other problems could be attributed to seriously dirty weapons (generally from firing blanks, which are many times dirtier than real ammo).
Unapproved method, especially for sandy conditions. If functionality is more important than resale value, you can run one bone dry. As in scrub it dry with laundry soap or degreaser and blazing hot water. You'll have rust issues, and I assume it greatly accelerates wear, but it doesn't get sand in the action. For cleaning just scrape the carbon off however you can (knife, nylon scrub pad, whatever).
An operating-rod rifle (AK, etc) won't stand up to that kind of treatment.
Unapproved method, especially for sandy conditions. If functionality is more important than resale value, you can run one bone dry. As in scrub it dry with laundry soap or degreaser and blazing hot water. You'll have rust issues, and I assume it greatly accelerates wear, but it doesn't get sand in the action. For cleaning just scrape the carbon off however you can (knife, nylon scrub pad, whatever).
An operating-rod rifle (AK, etc) won't stand up to that kind of treatment.
Any common symptoms? Jamming... common problem? Guns with tight tolerances so they can shoot 1-2MoA instead of 2-3MoA.
I have two AK rifles. One in 7.62x39 and one in 7.62x51. They both run brass and steel cases, they both go through hundreds of rounds without cleaning, they don't care if they sit in the open air in the FL Humidity or if they sit in a controlled climate box.
when clean, they both shoot 2MoA easily. When hot (REALLY HOT) and dirty, they open up to 3Moa (the x39 to 4).....
But you're right, it's all an ammo thing. Cuz when I'm in a situation where I have run out of ammo and I find a store that has 2 boxes of my caliber left, i really want to have to worry if that ammo will work in my gun. No thank you.
If you're thinking about a situation where you have to bug-out, your gun AND ammo will be stored in humid and hot conditions. You may run out of cleaning supplies, lube, etc. I just can't trust my life and future in a weapon that won't function without the perfect ammo, and perfect maintenance.
DO what you want, it's your money.
(oh and I have a handgun too... 45XD. 500rds through it right now without a cleaning and hasn't missed a beat and is still dead on accurate to 25yrds.... One day I'll clean it... when it fails to reliably feed... then I'll know its limitations. . . . buy yourself 1000 rds and go through it all without cleaning your rifle... I'd say if it makes it all the way through, it's reliable enough for SHTF.)
kcshooter
Member
Knowing how and actually doing it are two different things.
Any firearm that you abuse and do not take proper care of will fail. Period.
I don't understand, a "SHTF situation" means you are going to be shooting upwards of 1000 rounds without cleaning?? What kind of disaster are you folks expecting? LeadCounsel, your examples were the LA riots and Katrina. Do you thing you would have needed to go to a even a second magazine in either case? Did anyone actually fire more than a few rounds in SD in either of your examples??
These scenario threads just get more and more unrealistic, and some people just seem to fuel that fire.
They seem to be doing fine in Iraq. I can't imagine a domestic situation that is more dire than this.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Dude, the 1918 BAR is a MACHINEGUN. It's hardly tight tolerances. It was made in 1952 and it's been well abused.
There's nothing left on that thing that's "tight".
And G3's are about the most reliable things around.
ANY ammo can jam up your gun. The point is that it's hardly a failing of the weapon design.
1) There's not a firearm ever been made that can't be stopped with crappy enough ammo.
2) If things are so bad that you're in such dire need of more ammo, which store are you expecting to be open for business?
If Wal Mart is open, it's not SHTF time yet.
Selecting the right tool for the job.
I don't think that AR's are quite as reliable as AK's or an H&K 91's (which you just about have to intentionally break in order to get them both to quit running), but I think that it's reliable enough to defend your home from intruders, looters or rioters with if some sort of civil unrest breaks out.
Besides, the term SHTF means different things to different people. Some people are just thinking that it would just be a matter of a few days and others imagine that society will never return to normal (I don't think that that's very realistic even if something did happen). To some gun owners like me it could just mean that there's a little bit of looting and rioting after a natural disaster, after a power outage or urban unrest which occurs after a certain ethnic group thinks that they're being discriminated to the point where they lash of violently in mass civil unrest. To others it simply means some sort of Mad Max scenario where civilization collapses completely and it's every man and his dog for themselves. To me the Mad Max scenario seems pretty unlikely to happen though since it hasn't happened yet.
Are people going to riot and loot after a natural disaster or power outage? They sure will.
Is it possible or likely that at some point in the future that some sort of military conflict will be fought on US soil?
Again, I'd have to answer that at some point it's probably pretty likely given the odds and considering frequency that other countries have gone to war with a neighbor or had a civil war crop up. As US citizens we've had a pretty good run of luck to not have a full scale war being waged on US soil since the American Civil War and/or Pancho Via's raids (take your pick) and at some point that incredibly lucky run of peace will end. The odds are in favor of something happening at some point in the future, we've been damn lucky to avoid it for as long as we have.
However, do I think that as a planet that civilization will totally implode to the point where there isn't any sort of government and/or military infrastructure at all and do I think that civilization won't end up righting itself with just a few months (even if some sort of major conflict did rear it's ugly head to begin with)? No I don't.
Even when nations are fighting the nastiest of armed conflicts where the whole world seems like it's going nuts for years on end (WWI/WWII/conflict in the former Yugoslavia, Chechnya and the all out tribal warfare in Rwanda) things righted themselves at some point and people return to their normal boring lives just like they always have.
Since the AR15/M16 platform had the bugs worked out of it in the late 1960's and the early 70's US troops have been using it. Alot of people would like for the AR/M16 platform to have more 'Ummph' in order to penetrate through obstacles, body armor and to provide a higher probablitity of a one shot stops, but to be fair the M-16 A1, A2, A3, A4 and M-4 weapons have all worked well enough to be kept in service this whole time. If they didn't work and if it was so horrible then the military would have ditched it by now in favor of something else instead of just improving it.
Plus even if it was ALOT more finicky (instead of just a little finicky) in regards to reliability than some of the other assault carbines and battle rifles out there the AR platform is usually more accurate than either one of the above (AK and H&K 91). Depending on what the occasion was I might reach for an AR and in other defensive situations I might reach for some other military style semi-auto rifle that better filled that specific role. It just depends on what I intended its role to be and how it was to be used.
Even if some sort of civil unrest were to pop off in the US I just can't see the conflict going on for so long that you'd end up breaking an AR because you were just constantly shooting so many looters and rioters. Human wave attacks by rioters and looters is the stuff of fantasy. Even if that were to happen most AR's can go for 10,000 rds without any sort of parts breakage just so long as the owner/operator stays on top of preventive maintenance and uses decent ammo. Or even if it did end up breaking because you were shooting it so much that you wouldn't be able to fix it for lack of spare parts because we were living in what could be a sequel to the Mad Max trilogy you could always just store the spare parts yourself.
I don't think that AR's are quite as reliable as AK's or an H&K 91's (which you just about have to intentionally break in order to get them both to quit running), but I think that it's reliable enough to defend your home from intruders, looters or rioters with if some sort of civil unrest breaks out.
Besides, the term SHTF means different things to different people. Some people are just thinking that it would just be a matter of a few days and others imagine that society will never return to normal (I don't think that that's very realistic even if something did happen). To some gun owners like me it could just mean that there's a little bit of looting and rioting after a natural disaster, after a power outage or urban unrest which occurs after a certain ethnic group thinks that they're being discriminated to the point where they lash of violently in mass civil unrest. To others it simply means some sort of Mad Max scenario where civilization collapses completely and it's every man and his dog for themselves. To me the Mad Max scenario seems pretty unlikely to happen though since it hasn't happened yet.
Are people going to riot and loot after a natural disaster or power outage? They sure will.
Is it possible or likely that at some point in the future that some sort of military conflict will be fought on US soil?
Again, I'd have to answer that at some point it's probably pretty likely given the odds and considering frequency that other countries have gone to war with a neighbor or had a civil war crop up. As US citizens we've had a pretty good run of luck to not have a full scale war being waged on US soil since the American Civil War and/or Pancho Via's raids (take your pick) and at some point that incredibly lucky run of peace will end. The odds are in favor of something happening at some point in the future, we've been damn lucky to avoid it for as long as we have.
However, do I think that as a planet that civilization will totally implode to the point where there isn't any sort of government and/or military infrastructure at all and do I think that civilization won't end up righting itself with just a few months (even if some sort of major conflict did rear it's ugly head to begin with)? No I don't.
Even when nations are fighting the nastiest of armed conflicts where the whole world seems like it's going nuts for years on end (WWI/WWII/conflict in the former Yugoslavia, Chechnya and the all out tribal warfare in Rwanda) things righted themselves at some point and people return to their normal boring lives just like they always have.
Since the AR15/M16 platform had the bugs worked out of it in the late 1960's and the early 70's US troops have been using it. Alot of people would like for the AR/M16 platform to have more 'Ummph' in order to penetrate through obstacles, body armor and to provide a higher probablitity of a one shot stops, but to be fair the M-16 A1, A2, A3, A4 and M-4 weapons have all worked well enough to be kept in service this whole time. If they didn't work and if it was so horrible then the military would have ditched it by now in favor of something else instead of just improving it.
Plus even if it was ALOT more finicky (instead of just a little finicky) in regards to reliability than some of the other assault carbines and battle rifles out there the AR platform is usually more accurate than either one of the above (AK and H&K 91). Depending on what the occasion was I might reach for an AR and in other defensive situations I might reach for some other military style semi-auto rifle that better filled that specific role. It just depends on what I intended its role to be and how it was to be used.
Even if some sort of civil unrest were to pop off in the US I just can't see the conflict going on for so long that you'd end up breaking an AR because you were just constantly shooting so many looters and rioters. Human wave attacks by rioters and looters is the stuff of fantasy. Even if that were to happen most AR's can go for 10,000 rds without any sort of parts breakage just so long as the owner/operator stays on top of preventive maintenance and uses decent ammo. Or even if it did end up breaking because you were shooting it so much that you wouldn't be able to fix it for lack of spare parts because we were living in what could be a sequel to the Mad Max trilogy you could always just store the spare parts yourself.
waterhouse
Member
I don't doubt that in a military firefight, with a bunch of guys and a bunch of guns, 1,000 rounds total will get chewed up quickly between all those involved.
Is it common for any one person to go through 1,000 rounds in a fight using an AR/M16 type of weapon? If I'm doing the math right that is over 33 magazines. That is a lot of mags and ammo weight for one guy to be hauling around, much less using in one firefight.
I don't think you understood the test. You seem to equate fouling caused by firing as the same as being in a sandstorm. I don't need to look to government tests to tell me that fouling from firing will cause my AR to jam every 3 magazines. I know from experience that that is a lie. I have no experience firing in a sandstorm, so I'll take the governments word on that one. Do you really believe that the fouling caused from firing will cause a malfunction every 3 magazines?
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