Is the Militia Appropriate for Our Time?

[Werewolf]

This thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=171865 about the Mississippi Militia got me to wondering:

Are unorganized militias or non-state supported organized militias appropriate to our time?

There was a definite need for the militia 225 years ago but as time passed it seems history has shown the need for them in the USA to pretty much have gone away.

What purpose could a militia organization serve today? Of what use could the unorganized militia ever be?

I see no use for either.

What say you?

 

[The Drew]

Unfortunately, back in the 90's the militia movement was vilified and in many states it is outlawed in one form or another. Whether that be laws against paramilitary training, or the prohibition of unorganized "militias"

 

[Henry Bowman]

but as time passed it seems history has shown the need for them in the USA to pretty much have gone away.

I would say that the need is the same now. What has changed is the appreciation of its role and the general value shift of safety provided by "others" over liberty ensured by ourselves.

 

[boofus]

I see no use for either.

Hurricane Katrina & New Orleans. Nuff said.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I think one of the surest ways to get the government to spy on you, and perhaps eventually kill you, is to join a militia.

I assure you that a militia today would be viewed by our government, and this administration in particular, as a domestic terrorist group.

 

[hayseed]

I think a distinction needs to be made between the "militia" (which in my mind means the whole of the armed populace, the "people" mentioned in the 2A if you will), and para-military groups that call themselves "militias". The armed populace? Definately. Para-military groups? Not sure.

That being said, I think if some folks want to form a group, train and "play army", as long as they're not breaking the law, let 'em have at it. I don't know why some people get their shorts in a wad over this. If you think it's rediculous and get a kick out of the idea of bubba and his SKS, you're entitled to your opinion, and it's not without some basis in reality. OTOH, there may be some legitimate "civil defense" type groups who could be called upon to help out in natural disasters and such. I will agree that racist bubba groups have tarnished the gun owner image.

The question that goes along with this is, what is the appropriate use of 2A? When does one cross the line between exercising a constitutionally recognized right and becoming a "militia bubba"?

My apologies to anyone actually named Bubba.

 

[WT]

Our county emergency management system is setting up an 'unorganized militia' to handle victims of WMD's. Training is being given to volunteers - triage, bioweapons, radiation, etc.

I won't go into details but it scares the livin' cr*p out of me.

 

[Old Dog]

Werewolf, I'm in total agreement with you here. Fact is, the National Guard and the various armed forces' reserve components constitute the de facto militia.

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

There's a good article in Guns and Ammo this month about how the concept of militias have been taken out of context in modern times. Personally, I don't see any harm in having citizens who choose to put in extra time for training and preparedness in the event that they should face an adverse situation. Heck, I even do it myself. I have a survival pack always ready to go, a rifle that's dialed in for 100 yards, at least 200 rounds of ammo, and marksmanship training regularly. It's the media that have given militias a bad name. They only show the extremist groups doing bad things. That's what the general public sees, which is what they form their opinion from. Change that and we change the general opinion.

 

[boofus]

What happened in New Orleans is a textbook example of the unorganized militia. When responsible citizens formed neighborhood watches and looked out for each other while the chaos was going on in the rest of the city.

The National Guard is closer to a standing army than militia. They wear US military uniforms. They use US government owned equipment. They train on US government owned property. They hold ranks in the US Military. They are paid by the US government and answer to the Commander-in-Chief and go overseas to fight with the rest of the standing army.

Texas has the Texas State Guard, which is not part of the NG.

 

[oldfart]

I don't believe the need for the militia has changed appreciably but the public perception of it has.
Three hundred years ago there were no police forces to call upon when savages attacked the village so the militia manned the walls. In present times the 'savages' are just as lethal as ever, but now they mingle among us, mostly unnoticed until one of them grabs your wallet and runs. To make things worse, the government-- which in former times supported the militia, now uses every opportunity to disparage it, urging us to "call 911 and get away," as was reported yesterday.
There are a few semi-organized local militias, but they are almost universally infiltrated by the FBI. Probably the most effective groups will be those made up of three to five members, perhaps a group of hunting buddies, who have known each other long enough to have built a bond of trust between them. Who, if the need were to arise, could and would support each other.
In spite of all the chest-thumping, no viable militia will ever be formed on or through the internet though it could be useful for a short time as a means to call out the various units. If an emergency were to last for very long though, either the net would go down or it would be compromised beyond being useful.
JMNSHO

 

[antarti]

I happen to like freedom of association with other firearms owners, whether they choose to call themselves a "militia" (or gun club, hunt club, shooting association, range membership) or not. Demonization of "militias" is a toehold and media cover for breaking up other groups/congregations of firearms owners IMHO.

"The militias go to these gun shows and use loopholes to trade deadly assault weapons"
"It looked like a target range, but it was really a militia sniper training center"
You can see where that is going... demonize and rationalize...

I happen to also like the Founders idea of the militia being all the people at large, along with t he cautions against a standing army, and (especially) keeping only a small navy, and on and on. Seems like we might have all the "bad" and none of the "good" from their perspective.

That being said, I think if some folks want to form a group, train and "play army", as long as they're not breaking the law, let 'em have at it. I don't know why some people get their shorts in a wad over this. If you think it's rediculous and get a kick out of the idea of bubba and his SKS, you're entitled to your opinion, and it's not without some basis in reality. OTOH, there may be some legitimate "civil defense" type groups who could be called upon to help out in natural disasters and such. I will agree that racist bubba groups have tarnished the gun owner image.

Agreed, being a criminal makes you a criminal, not wearing a jacket with some bike-club name on it, and not meeting-up with other shooters to play weekend-warrior in the woods. Sadly, the "weekend warriors" are at least taking their citizenship duties seriously, and for that, they are taking it in the shorts, being hit with all manner of seditious slander. If the ones demonizing them took their obligations as seriously, they'd be looking elsewhere for bogeymen to infiltrate, and camera time for arrests.

The President and many governors have really missed a chance to get the public involved after 9-11 by calling up the militia for protecting select installations like ports, utilities, schools, and the like. Who wouldn't pull a turn standing at a fence or gate in their own backyard making sure that their own neighborhood was safe from lunatics set on poisoning their water, shooting kids, or creating chemical spills? Instead, we are supposed to sit on our butts (after duct taping and plastic-sheeting our windows) and hand over our nail-clippers when flying. So much for the "ownership society" mantra... Seems like a good use of the militia to me though.

I know, I know, government isn't supposed to make sense anymore....

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Unfortunately, back in the 90's the militia movement was vilified and in many states it is outlawed in one form or another. Whether that be laws against paramilitary training, or the prohibition of unorganized "militias"

I always wondered about that. Since the U.S. Code specifically establishes and defines an "unorganized milita," how can any law prohibiting same be legal?

 

[yonderway]

There was a definite need for the militia 225 years ago but as time passed it seems history has shown the need for them in the USA to pretty much have gone away.

On the contrary, as our federal government becomes more and more tyrannical, the relevance of the unorganized militia increases. Witness the usurpation of civil liberties through the USA Patriot Act, and the revelation that GWB authorized the NSA to spy on American citizens without a warrant (in direct contradiction to constitutional protections against this very act)

We need to be vigilant now more than ever before.[/QUOTE]

 

[Biker]

It's a sad commentary on the times, or maybe just a sign of my paranoia, but I try to be 'noticed' as little as possible nowadays. Whenever I speak on a phone or post on the 'net, Im always conducting myself under the rule of "whatever you say can and will be used against you". How does this pertain to a modern militia?
In my neck of the woods, most of us are gunowners and many are hunters and more than a few are military Vets. In a Katrina type situation, a natural Militia of sorts would form. Folks who needed help would be helped and BGs would be on the endangered species list and none of us would need uniforms or Generals to make these events a reality.
None of us want publicity nor the attention of any "alphabet agencies". We're just westerners.
Biker

 

[yonderway]

Werewolf, I'm in total agreement with you here. Fact is, the National Guard and the various armed forces' reserve components constitute the de facto militia.

This is a legal fallacy. Legally, the National Guard represents a component of the organized militia. Most of the rest of us, whether we like it or not, represent the unorganized militia.

 

[Preacherman]

I think we need to distinguish between "the" militia (which is Constitutionally defined, and includes all of us) and "a" militia, which is a local body calling itself by a name which includes the word "militia".

Unfortunately, some of the local bodies tend to talk about themselves as if they, and they alone, were "the" militia. This is not only untrue, but unwise.

 

[yonderway]

I think it is important to train in militia drills so that, if we have to pull together as a community (like post-Katrina NOLA), we'll be able to do so efficiently. I think it's worthwhile for a trusted group of friends to form a cohesive unit so that they can better work together if community duty calls. But I think a lot of "militia" groups are over the top. A surefire indicator of this is when they assign rank. Or if the militia becomes their overriding focus in life.

Take care of your family. Live a normal life. But prepare for disaster "just in case". Learn practical skills from one another, but leave the politics, racism, and religion out of it.

Every now and then I'll hook up with some other like-minded guys and do some cross-training or camping out. But I walk away as soon as someone starts talking about a great white nation, or how to convert an SKS to full auto, or how to build a pipe bomb. I have no time or patience for that. I'm more interested in helping my neighbors (and the local cops) in the wake of a tragedy, or being ready if there is some other localized SHTF to respond to.

 

[Pilgrim]

Anyone for a military history study group?

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

I think it is important to train in militia drills so that, if we have to pull together as a community (like post-Katrina NOLA), we'll be able to do so efficiently.

Another such scenario would be the president publicly declaring himself above the law and assuming dictatorial powers. Oh, wait a minute. I think that happened yesterday...

 

[Kaylee]

It seems to me from a practical standpoint, if we were strating from a blank slate, that a militia would be ideally suited to our present conflict, at least the defensive end of it. Who knows a community more than its members? Who else would be better at spotting something unusual that might portend an attack? A modern "Civil Defense" militia makes a lot of sense.

That said.. the polictical realities of this day and age make it unlikely, given both popular fear of "those militia crazies" and the large federal agencies that have taken over a good deal of the job. But I suppose our local police and guard agencies have the field covered pretty well, all things considered.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Unfortunately, some of the local bodies tend to talk about themselves as if they, and they alone, were "the" militia. This is not only untrue, but unwise.

Preacherman, isn't this somewhat akin to "the church" which is made up of many local groups that call themselves "churches" and have subtle (or dramatic) differences in their approach?

 

[yonderway]

I really think that we ought to take a hard look at the Swiss model. No standing army. A nation in reserve. All able-bodied males have compulsory service peppered throughout their lifetimes (front-loaded with more duties in their younger years, less when they are older) and have to check in with their rifles annually. Everybody has an assault rifle in their home with an emergency pack of ammo. Shooting sports are a part of daily life. It is not alarming to see some guys heading to the range with rifles slung over their shoulders.

No standing army, but no one dares to invade them. Gun-related crimes are exceedingly rare. And it's hard to find any country that really hates them the way the USA is hated by so many.

 

[Jeff White]

From my post in the other thread:

There is a big difference between a sanctioned state guard force and the Michigan, Missouri, of Mississippi militia. The state guard units are in keeping with the true spirit of the militia as it's defined in the constitution. Volunteers who respond to the call of the electedd authority in times of need.

These other militias have a political agenda of their own and are waiting for the time that they are they authority. They claim to stand by to protect their particular version of the constitution. Did you catch Attala_County's post about having to re-read the federalist and anti-federalist papers before he could come up with an answer to a question?

These groups are nothing more then armed political parties. Armed political parties belong in Russia in 1917, Germany in the 1930s and places like Somalia today. They are not a legitimate part of the American political system.

We have a system that allows the average citizen more opportunity to participate in his government then any other place on Earth. Yet the members of these so called militias seem unable to work within the system. It never occurred to them to join the local Democrat or republican party and to try to advance their agenda by conventional means. Perhaps their agenda, which could be anything from racism, anti-semeticism, or the establishment of a Tailban like Christian theocracy in the US is so out of the of the mainstream of political thought they can't function within the system. Then there is the fun factor, the Democrats and republicans don't have secret meetings where they show off their new Ram Line 30 round magazines for their Ruger 10-22s and discuss the best way to modify a Yugo SKS to accept an AK magazine. The Democrats and republicans don't talk about taking over by force when things get too bad. As bad as things are loooking for the DNC these days and as upset as the Democrats are at being out of power, I doubt Howard Dean is planning on arming the party rank and file to win the next election by force.

There is still a place for a true militia. One that steps forward in a time of crisis to assist the elected authorities. The volunteers who train in the various state guard units, the county and local emergency management agencies and ESDAs are the modern militia in the spirit of the law.

Jeff

 

[atk]

My apologies to all those in this thread. I'm getting tired, and I haven't read any more than the opening post, and probably will not read any more for a few days (I expect to be away from the computer for a short while, as I have vacation time and intend to use it *grin*).

Therefore, I apologize in advance if I repeat anything, or if I omit anything that I should have stated (in deference to later comments), and for whatever length of delay there is for any future responses on this thread.



There are several states that have state guard organizations - as easily called state militias. I cannot speak for other states, but, here in Massachusetts, the Massachusetts State Guard (MASG - www.mastateguard.org) operates for the flag (for those that don't know what that means: we're volunteer our time, we pay for our own uniforms, equipment and food - anything the National Guard gives us we cannot request).

Our purpose is to support the National Guard in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

We usually drill at the Massachusetts Nation Guard Joint Forces Headquarters. Each and every time we're there, the NG uses us to supplement base security.

We have assisted with troop activations and with deactivations.

We are supposed to be developing a quick reaction team, though I'm unclear about the intended use.

If the NG were ever pulled entirely from the state, we'd take their place until they came back.

The National guard has made formal requests to the MASG to do OPFOR exercizes, but we haven't been used for that, yet. I'm told that the previous organization (the Massachusetts Military Reserve) did OPFOR exercizes with the National Guard on a regular basis.

--
atk

This thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=171865 about the Mississippi Militia got me to wondering:

Are unorganized militias or non-state supported organized militias appropriate to our time?

There was a definite need for the militia 225 years ago but as time passed it seems history has shown the need for them in the USA to pretty much have gone away.

What purpose could a militia organization serve today? Of what use could the unorganized militia ever be?

I see no use for either.

What say you?