Is There Such A Thing As A Semi-Auto long-distance Rifle in .308 For Under $1000?

[DonNikmare]

Is There Such A Thing As A Semi-Auto Sniper Rifle in .308 For Under $1000?

I'm looking at buying a Rem 700 PSS closer to the end of the year but can't quite get over having to use the bolt action yet, so I had to ask this question first.

Nik

 

[Hkmp5sd]

You can get a HBAR or National Match AR-10 starting right at $1000.

 

[Foreign Devil]

I think the DPMS 308 is just a hair over $1000...

AR-10 for 1000? I thought even th eagle arms versions were around 1500. I bought one of their 308 carbines for under 1000 but they are not in the "sniper" class.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Yep, $1,000.

Go check out GunsAmerica. They're even listing an Armalite National Match AR-10 .308 with 20" stainless barrel for $1,225.

 

[DonNikmare]

Thanks for the info and links.

Looking at the prices I'll probably still end up with a Rem 700, just can't stomach an addtional $300 to $500 just for the convinience of semi-auto, but it was an option I needed to look at and get closure on.

Nik

 

[ksnecktieman]

Don? Do you want to play??????? Or did you come to dance???????

Remember the disposible .45 that the government of the US air dropped into europe?????? We do not have enough information to answer your question???????????????

You have ONE weapon,,,,,,,, You can find it between your Ears..... IT WILL DETERMINE CALIBER AN TIMING

 

[ctdonath]

ksnecktieman:
Relax.

Don:
What is the purpose for a "semi-auto sniper rifle"? While such arguably do exist, the two phrases are a bit contradictory.

Semi-auto loses a bit of accuracy from the rough/inconsistent movement of the action (esp. first vs. subsequent rounds), and the additional complexity raises the chance of malfunction. This trades off for the convenience of the next round being "right there".

Bolt-action is a bit slower and requires more training/practice. This trades off for accuracy and reliability.

With proper practice, one can work a bolt before the gun comes out of recoil. At distances usually attributed to snipers, one can work the bolt before the bullet hits the target; at shorter distances, a sniper should not need a second shot.

There's a reason the Remington 700 is preferred by snipers.

 

[Psssniper]

Loosen that necktie KS ......geez

I live in Kalif. I like my Rem 700 PSS alot and it's Kalif. approved!!

Buy the Rem 700 and spend $$ on a good scope and then practice practice practice.

 

[Zundfolge]

Vepr in .308

http://www.robarm.com/

 

[artherd]

With proper practice, one can work a bolt before the gun comes out of recoil.

Uh, I have a semi and a bolt action. I am nowhere NEAR good enough to work the bolt that fast. My hat is clean off to you if you are. I can probally shoot the semi 2-5x as fast on target. Depends on range.

I recomend:



Used Armalite AR-10.

Or DPMS Panther version in .308

Shooters are getting 1/2MOA or LESS from the Panther. (it's getting KAC SR-25 good, or better.)

These are fine weapons that are at least the equal in reliability to their bolt-action counterparts. Equally accurate as well.

They give up NOTHING to a bolt-action, and have the availability of rapid follow-up shots.

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Don, my Stg58 you saw over at JFRuser's house a couple of weeks ago isn't a sub-moa rifle, but it's not that bad. I have a lot less than a grand in it, too.

The DPMS .308 is a good choice. With some judicious work a FAL could be better than one expects.

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[chapperjoe]

308

get a remington 710 ADL and then a saiga in 308. spend money on glass and bipods!!!!!!!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Being semi-auto and used for sniping are not contradictory. The action of the gun is just that, the action, and it is just how the gun mechanically is cycled. "Sniping" is an application. Many rifles used for sniping are bolt action because they are a little more accurate, but for some better semi-autos, the difference in accuracy as compared to a bolt action is pretty darned small.

The difference in function and application can be summed up with examples. In various wars in which the US has participated prior to 1980, 'sniper' rifles were simply hunting rifles pressed into service for the application of sniping (then again, a lot of rifle hunting is basically just animal sniping, no?). Also, Carlos Hathcock held the record for the longest combat kill with a 0.50 caliber BMG mounting a telescopic sight. The distance was an astounding 2250 meters. Hathcock was one of several individuals to utilize the Browning 0.50 caliber heavy machine gun in the sniping role. This success has led to the adoption of the .50 caliber cartridge as a viable anti-personnel and anti-equipment sniper round.

If being semi-auto is in conflict with being a sniping gun, then something like a BMG for sniping would be ludicrous, right? And yet it was done.

With all that said, there are probably a variety of semi-auto caliber .308 rifles that are semi-auto and could be pressed into service for sniping, although they may not be billed a sniping rifles by the manufacturer.

 

[ID_shooting]

Just working off rumor hear so, please, take it for what it is worth. A guy at our local shop bought one of those Chinese copies of an M1A, Norico I think. Anyway, He said he installed a matchgrade springield barrel, trigger kit, bedded it, polished it and mounted a scope and bi-pod. He brought in a target shouw a nice 3 inch group he claims was shot at 300 yds.

I do not know if it is true, but none of us have ever had reason to doubt him in the past.

 

[hillbilly]

Don, it all depends on what you mean by "sniper" rifle.

Typically, semi-automatic "sniper" rifles are probably more along the lines of what the US military calls the "Designated Marksman Rifle" or DMR.

It's what the Army is using M-14s for in Afghanistan...engaging targets at ranges beyond that what normal, average riflemen can, (starting at around 500 and going on out to near 1000) but still operating within the context of a rifle squad.

Russia calls Dragunovs "sniper" rifles and employs them as such, but they are different in doctrine and use than US snipers.

US snipers use precision rifles. Almost always bolt action.

US snipers are used differently than Russian snipers. US snipers are typically not deployed as part of a rifle squad. They often operate only in their shooter-spotter pairs.

I will say that I have never been part of a the military, and anything I know about sniper rifles and sniping and precision shooting, I have been taught by the fine gentlemen at

http://www.badlandstactical.net

There is a big difference between what a precision bolt action rifle can do and what a semi-automatic can do.

You can get semi-autos almost to the level of precision bolt actions, but it costs a whole lot to do.

I say get a Remington 700, get the action trued and a trigger job, and spend your real money on the scope, mount, and rings.

hillbilly

 

[WhiteKnight]

spend your real money on the scope, mount, and rings

Could you expound on this?

Do you mean one ought to
replace their Tasco scope and generic rings with a Leupold scope or that they should replace their Leupold Mark 4 rings with a Nightforce/US Optics scope and Badger rings?

How good do you consider to be "good enough?"

I often hear folks here talk about skimping on the rifle if you have to, but splurging on the optic set up. I'm still unclear on the extent to which one should take it.

 

[ctdonath]

Put a lot of money into the optics. Something on the order of the price of the rifle - even exceeding it - is reasonable. I took a precision long-distance rifle course, and put a $500 Leupold scope on a $2000 rifle (Steyr Scout); if I go back, it will likely be with a $1000 Leupold (higher tactical model) on a $1000 rifle (Remington 700) (prices are very approximate).

Most "good" rifles can do 1MOA accuracy or better - that's just 10" at 1000 yards, good enough for most social applications. Sure you can get sub-MOA performance for more money, but can/will you be able to shoot that well?

At long range, optics become crucial.

1. The clarity and uniformity of the glass must be precise enough to see the target clearly; a crisp image at lower magnification is preferable to higher magnification of a murky image. Person-sized targets get very small beyond 600 yds. Even high-contrast well-defined targets are hard to pick out as you approach 1000 yds; you'll be straining the limits of your eyes, so you don't want the optics muddling the image.

2. Elevation/windage adjustments must be comparably precise; unlike most applications where they are set once and left alone most of the time, sniping requires frequent adjustments which had darned well better be accurate and consistent.

2.5 The adjustment knobs should run thru the full range with one turn, typically with each click making a 1MOA adjustment. 1/4MOA adjustments sound appealing, but few things suck more than finding out the hard way that you're a full turn off, then wasting time trying to figure out which way you have to crank that knob.

3. Reticle choice is significant. "Mildot" reticles usually cost more, but are worth the cost in providing a convenient means to measuring the target for distance estimation - so long as the dots are etched precisely enough.

4. Holding all this together should be rock-solid rings and base. The base should have a 20MOA slope, vital to giving elevation adjustments range from 100yds to >1000yds; no base slope can limit a 1"-tube scope to 600yds. This I found out at a bad time, and had to resort to cheap ($45) rings which had shims providing the needed 20MOA slope ... which apparently shifted (!!!) before making a crucial 100yd shot at a 1" target. Paying over $300 for rings & base is reasonable.

Remember: if that crosshair is not spot-on at your range of operation, you'll miss. If the end of the scope unexpectedly moves 0.001" off center, you'll be off by 10" at 1000yds. If the optics are not crystal clear, you might not even see the uncooperative target at that range.

Your choice is either pump money into the optics so you can hit with the first shot, or pump the money into a fast-cycling action so you can try again quickly. Don't get me wrong: autoloaders are certainly useful and can be just as accurate as a bolt-action ... but with sniping, the goal is to not need a second shot. Put the money in optics.

How do you know how much to put into what? Just make sure the tools are better than the user ... and that the user strains the limits of the tools.

I will say that I have never been part of a the military, and anything I know about sniper rifles and sniping and precision shooting, I have been taught by the fine gentlemen at Storm Mountain. They prefer the Remington 700.

 

[DonNikmare]

What is the purpose for a "semi-auto sniper rifle"? While such arguably do exist, the two phrases are a bit contradictory

I have not owned a bolt action yet and have only shot a few.
I simply enjoy semi-auto - the ability to fire and fire again wihtout making a change in grip, cheeck weld, etc.

I call it sniper rifle only becuase it's easier to call it that than "Long range Precision Rifle", which is what I mean and want. Right now I'm working on accuracy at about 100 yards with the iron sights on my CETME. I have greatly enjoyed it! I can only imagine the enjoyment will only grow as the distance grows from 100 to several hundred yards but the accuracy remains - hence the desire for a "sniper rifle."

I appriciate the suggestions and time you guys took. ctdonath, I really enjoyed reading about the class you took and what you learned thanks for sharing.

Nik

 

[SunBear]

Folks at Fort Bennring tell me that they will soon be testing candidates for the new semi-auto 308 sniper rifle. I look for the folks at ArmsTech, H&K and maybe Barrett to be in this shootout. We have the technology. Happy trails.




.

 

[orangeninja]

How about a Dragunov? Not .308 but suposed to be a Squad Sniper Weapon.

 

[shoobe01]

SVD? (Dragunov). Terminology screwing with us again. Its a DMR, not a "sniper rifle." Not that its bad, its just that this is what its spec'd to do.

I love autoloaders, but when I realized I couldn't shoot really accuratly and fast enough to make it make sense, I went with the PSS. This has panned out well. No protruding mag, the stock shape, low sight mounting and so on make it much more ideal for accurate fire at range than any autoloader I've tried.

I also suspect we have the technology for sub-moa autoloaders, but presumably we then have the technology for 1/4 moa bolts. Which we do. Both will cost a LOT of money though. And the bolt will still be lighter and slicker.

One other note that always interested me: for tactical/practical shotgunning, I know any number of people who can score the same on a course with a pump as an auto. Man-to-man, they will beat any auto I can run with a very boring pump gun. This is tangible proof to me that -- once a certain level of weapon quality is achieved -- its the man more than the hardware.

 

[Steve Smith]

Note from Mod

Ya'll steer clear of "sniping" and keep it on the high road. You all know the policy.

 

[DonNikmare]

I like the Dragunov myself and if ammo cost was not an issue I would have seriously considered it. I like the fact that it's semi-auto and how it looks.

I'm stuck on .308 in order to be able to share the ammo between my CETME and whatever other rifle I get at least until in the beginning. If shooting at great distances with the precision rifle becomes a real passion, I'd have to start getting match grade but until then sharing the mil surplus .308 will save $.

Ideally...I'd like to have an AK, unissued SKS, Dragunov, AR 10, something in .50 and the land to fire it and all of them on, and oh so many more. Sigh. And that's without talking handguns. So many guns so little money.

The Rem 700 PSS is so cool all the way around.

Nik

 

[hillbilly]

WhiteKnight...

"Real Money" depends on your needs, your wants, and how much money you've got.

"Real Money" could mean $500 to you or it could mean $5000.

Here's what it meant to me.

I've got a Remington 700 Varmint Synthetic in .308.

It is essentially the exact same rifle as the PSS only in an HS Precision stock with a more narrow forearm than the PSS has.

I've got about $1200 worth of scope, picatinny rail and rings atop a rifle that retails for around $600.

For me, that meant a Leupold 6.5-20X with adjustable target knobs, side focus knob and Gen II Mildot reticle.

To the base rifle I've added an action trueing, a Harris bipod and a good sling.

With that rifle-scope combo, I can find, range, dial-in and hit "iron maiden" silhouettes out to 1000 yards if I do my wind reading correctly.

I have hit "iron maidens" at 1000 yards on a known-distance range. I have ranged and hit "iron maidens" on an unknown-distance range that turned out to be 840 yards.

With that combo, I can shoot 100 yard groups that make one hole: three-shot groups you can cover with a dime. It's a lot more likely after the cold bore shot.

Next on the list is a trigger job.

hillbilly

 

[j.wise]

I respectfully disagree that the VEPR .308 would be a suitable rifle to fill the role described.

I tried to get mine to shoot accurately enough to fill that role for quite some time. I finally bought a Springfield M21 and realized the two are in COMPLETELY different leagues. The M21 is a fantastic semi-auto "precision" rifle. The VEPR .308 is more along the lines of the Druganov (SVD), but in .308 win instead of 7.62X54R.