Long Range .308/7.62 Rifle

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TJHell

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What is the most accurate .308 "sniper" rifle money can buy? Something that will put down at 1000 yards. Ive heard of Accuracy International's rifles, Remingtons XM3, and a few others, but what is the most accurate bolt action rifle somone could buy?
 
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Here's a link -

Savage F/TR

This is considered by many to be "entry level" to F-Class shooting. As it is chambered in .308, it can be used in F/TR Class, rather than "open". Savage has reportedly put quite a bit into this rifle to make it competitive "out of the box".

Rumor has it that you can easily spend twice as much to have one built to get the same performance.

Bottom line - you shouldn't expect to get a $400 rifle with 1000 yd accuracy. Kind of like finding a unicorn. :)
 
I'm smelling someone who couldn't do it, regardless of what the rifle can or cannot do.

Any bolt rifle from the major manufacturers can be fitted with a varmint barrel, have some trigger work, be free-floated, and probably deliver 1/2 MOA with ammo that has been handloaded for THAT rifle. You're looking at a few hundred dollars' worth of gunsmithing. THAT SAID, most SHOOTERS who can deliver a .308 out to 1000 yards would be doing the work themselves.

The .308 isn't a 1000 yard cartridge. Not REALLY. The .308 is mostly manageable out to about 800 yards, and to push it further than that is possible, but certainly not preferred. If you know you need a 1000 yard rifle, you should be looking at something north of 300 magnum.

If you can't make a ragged sub 1-inch hole at 100 yards with a .22 using open sights, don't bother.
 
The .308 isn't a 1000 yard cartridge. Not REALLY.
Click to expand...

This will be news to the F-T/R and Palma shooters, not to mention the Full Bore guys in the old Empire. They have to shoot .308 and seem to do pretty well with it. My only serious limitation is a lack of experience in judging the wind, nothing wrong with the rifle or the caliber.

THE most accurate rifle will most likely be a custom bolt action. It might be a shop that gets plugged on the Internet, it might be a small operation that nobody but the Master class competitor customers have heard of.
 
As noted above, the .308/7.62x51 can be an effective 1000 yard target round in the right platform.

For example the Palma users typically use barrels of 32" in length, highly tweaked handloads only of 155gr, iron sights only, weapon to weigh no more that 6.4kg (14.1 pounds) etc etc.


Write up by a US Palma shooter

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek059.html

His rifle at the time

WhidRearx400.jpg

WhidRifx620.jpg

The number of people who can shoot at this level is very very very small......
 
I would agree with above post. Id say just get a savage 10fp or remington 700 sps-v, and spend the rest on optics, different stock, equipment, ammo.
 
I just realized my last post had nothing to do with the original topic at all, lol.

If i had the money i would buy something from accuracy intl.
 
The best rifles of this type are going to be custom made. As others have said the main issue at that range is the shooter, and .308 isn't really a 1000 yard cartridge, imho. Another issue will be optics. The savage someone linked to is going to be more accurate than 99% of the people on this board. That would probably be a good start for someone who wants to do some long range shooting in .308.

If you can't make a ragged sub 1-inch hole at 100 yards with a .22 using open sights, don't bother.
Click to expand...

yeah, actually it's even more complex than that. I can make one inch holes with a .22 using irons, but I don't think I could hit anything at 1000 yards with a .308, not without some practice. There is a lot of windage/drop issues that need to be taken into account at that range.
 
I shoot .308 all day long at 1000yds. Granted i'm punching paper and ringing steel but .308 has plenty of umph for target shooting. SMK 175's 44.6g varget Lapua brass.

Now to the op. I'd get a remmy 700P. Out of the box its setup with all you need as far as the rifle goes. Get a 20MOA base b/c you'll need the extra elevation at that distance. Also a MK4 scope at a minimum. You'll need good glass at 1000yds you can't go cheap on glass and expect to shoot long range.
 
TJHell said:
What is the most accurate .308 "sniper" rifle money can buy?
Click to expand...

If your parameters are "the sky's the limit", then the answer is simple.

An entirely custom job.


But keep in mind you don't need a $6 - 8,000 rig to shoot 1,000 yards though. Now if you want to be competitive and win national matches, you will need to pony up big money in a rifle that produces absolutely repeatable results, a good piece of glass, and probably even go through several barrels over a lifetime. The pursuit and the practice necessary to get competitive will go through a barrel pretty quickly.


Anyway, for recreational shooting you don't even need a $2,000 package.


As Jim said, the difficulty in shooting anything at 1,000 yards is doping wind. Its as much of an art as it is a science. Very often the shooter will see several wind conditions on the way to the target, and it becomes an art to decide how much of a wind value to assign to each condition and come up with a total windage adjustment.

I was out at a 1,000 yard range Friday testing a new load in .308. The problem I experienced was not having enough travel in my scope to add more minutes on the gun. Once I get a base with about 30 MOA built into it I'll have no problem hitting targets at 1,000 with it.

A fellow out there with us had an off the shelf .280 Browning. Nothing special, just your standard hunting rifle. He was dinging the steel at 1,000 with it. It just takes skill; most rifles can manage it.


Again the difficulty with shooting .308 at 1,000 is the wind. Adjusting for the drop is easy - if your scope and mount has the travel in it anyway. :eek: But that's easy to account for. The difficulty really is judging wind conditions. The reason why folks move up to the heavier, faster calibers is they are more forgiving of mistakes in doping the wind. And if wind conditions suddenly change in flight the bullet is less affected.


Don't let anyone tell you 1,000 yards is limited to magnums and high dollar rifles. A .308 can do it, but the shooter has to possess the skill in riflery to make it perform.


Here's my 500 yard group from Friday.
attachment.php


I got the rifle about 12 years ago. Winchester Heavy Barrel Varmint in .308. Leupold fixed 12X varmint scope. Handloaded 175 gr Sierra MatchKings. That 500 yard group measures 2.85 inches. Off the shelf rifle, off the shelf scope. It's the shooter, not the tool.
 
Friend of mine shot a midrange (200, 300, 600 yard) match over the weekend.
He had a great day on Sunday and said that the key to his success was that the light was good and he could see the mirage through his rifle scope and not have to take the time and change position to use a spotting scope. It was rainy on Saturday and he had to use the spotting scope to see some mirage and judge the wind. He got some surprise 9s and his scorekeeper (very high level F-open shooter Jim Murphy) said he was getting caught by changes in conditions between the time he could see something in the spotting scope and get back on the rifle and make the shot.

Said friend says he will budget for a new scope - Nightforce Benchrest, probably - in time for the Nationals.
 
I am kind of a casual occasional recreational Long Range shooter, but I seem to notice the magnums fading out. Shooters who want flatter trajectory and less windage also want less recoil and are tending to one or another of the 6.5mm family; with a small kickback to 7mm in some cases. If they are shooting an event whose rules allow it. You must shoot .308 (or .223) in F/T-R and Palma.
 
Quote:
ou don't need a suppressor or a brake. If you are shooting 1000 yards in the F Class

Considering that brakes and suppressors are prohibited by NRA rules in F-Class competition, this is kind of moot.

We just had this discussion over in the other thread
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....72&postcount=6

I strongly recommend reading that and taking my advice in the "Part I" article that Pulse posted the link to (thanks).

1000 yards isn't that far. Most people who haven't shot that far vastly over-estimate what is required to shoot that far.

Look at a moderate case size in 6.5 mm, such as the .260 Rem, 6.5x47, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x55, 6.5-284, 6.5-06, etc. If you must go to a magnum case, the 7mm RM and 7mm WSM have better ballistics with less recoil than the .300's.

An accurate rifle isn't worth anything if you can't shoot it enough without pain to get the experience and skill to make long-range hits. Hmm:

Quote:
The recoil pounded the hell out of me though!

Sounds like a great endorsement of high-recoil calibers without muzzle brakes.

Here's a ballistic comparison of some relevant calibers, sorted by wind drift at 1250

Code:
_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 250 500 750 1000 1250 | YARDS
338LM 300 0.77* 2700 > 0.00 2.61 11.00 26.18 49.34 81.98 | wind (inches)
7RM 180 0.684 2950 > 0.00 2.60 11.01 26.26 49.65 82.82 | wind (inches)
300RUM 240SMK 0.71* 2850 > 0.00 2.62 11.08 26.40 49.94 83.44 | wind (inches)
338LM 250 0.675 2950 > 0.00 2.64 11.17 26.67 50.49 84.30 | wind (inches)
7RM 168 0.643 3050 > 0.00 2.64 11.23 26.88 51.03 85.48 | wind (inches)
300RUM 210BER 0.633 3000 > 0.00 2.76 11.71 28.08 53.40 89.59 | wind (inches)
6.5-284 139 0.615 2950 > 0.00 2.91 12.40 29.80 56.85 95.59 | wind (inches)
300WM 210BER 0.633 2900 > 0.00 2.89 12.30 29.53 56.21 94.32 | wind (inches)
243WIN 115 DTAC 0.585 3100 > 0.00 2.86 12.19 29.39 56.21 94.89 | wind (inches)
708 168 VLD 0.643 2700 > 0.00 3.15 13.41 32.21 61.36 102.68 | wind (inches)
260 139 0.615 2800 > 0.00 3.14 13.38 32.20 61.52 103.35 | wind (inches)
6.5CM 0.585 2810 > 0.00 3.29 14.08 34.04 65.31 110.06 | wind (inches)
308 155 0.508 2900 > 0.00 3.66 15.82 38.68 75.13 127.84 | wind (inches)
308 175 FED 0.51* 2650 > 0.00 4.27 18.56 45.74 89.14 150.37 | wind (inches)

338LM 300 0.77* 2700 > -0.00 0.76 2.70 5.05 7.82 11.12 | drop (mil)
7RM 180 0.684 2950 > -0.00 0.59 2.23 4.25 6.69 9.62 | drop (mil)
300RUM 240SMK 0.71* 2850 > -0.00 0.66 2.41 4.55 7.13 10.22 | drop (mil)
338LM 250 0.675 2950 > -0.00 0.59 2.24 4.27 6.73 9.70 | drop (mil)
7RM 168 0.643 3050 > -0.00 0.54 2.08 4.01 6.36 9.23 | drop (mil)
300RUM 210BER 0.633 3000 > -0.00 0.57 2.18 4.20 6.66 9.69 | drop (mil)
6.5-284 139 0.615 2950 > -0.00 0.60 2.29 4.41 7.03 10.27 | drop (mil)
300WM 210BER 0.633 2900 > -0.00 0.63 2.37 4.55 7.21 10.49 | drop (mil)
243WIN 115 DTAC 0.585 3100 > -0.00 0.52 2.05 4.00 6.42 9.44 | drop (mil)
708 168 VLD 0.643 2700 > -0.00 0.78 2.81 5.35 8.45 12.28 | drop (mil)
260 139 0.615 2800 > -0.00 0.71 2.60 4.99 7.94 11.61 | drop (mil)
6.5CM 0.585 2810 > -0.00 0.71 2.62 5.05 8.09 11.91 | drop (mil)
308 155 0.508 2900 > -0.00 0.66 2.53 4.98 8.16 12.33 | drop (mil)
308 175 FED 0.51* 2650 > -0.00 0.87 3.17 6.24 10.28 15.61 | drop (mil)The first three loads have this for recoil (on a 18# gun):
338LM/300: 11.5 FRE
7RM/180: 4.9 FRE
300RUM/240: 8.2 FRE

Going down a bit, the 6.5-284 has 2.9
243/115: 2.2 FRE
.260/139: 2.7 FRE

For reference, in the Colorado practical long-range shooting group, many have gone away from .308, .300, and 7RM to the .260 (or similar calibers) for great ballistics, low cost and recoil, and general easy "shootability."

At the 2008 Steel Safari,

Quote:
The .260 Remington was the dominant cartridge (32%) followed by .308 Winchester (26%), then 6XC (9%), and one each of .260-AI, .270 Winchester, .300WM, .243WIN, 6.5-06-AI, 6.5-06, 7 WSM, 7 RSAUM. The .264/6.5mm bore diameter was completely dominant (43%) followed by .30 (30%) and then 13% shooting .243 and .284.

__________________
DEMIGOD LLC . THUNDER BEAST ARMS CORP . COLORADO MULTI-GUN . SMITH OFFROAD
Click to expand...

I think this shows you don't need north of 300 mag. If you were to start out with a 700P, or something comparable, get good glass and work up as you need it, you should be okay. By the time you start getting good at 1000 yards and really hooked your rifle will probably look nothing like the orignal configuration if money is no object.
 
Thanks for all the great imput guys, for right now I was just wondering, but mabey with a lot of practice I could someday punch holes in paper at 1000. We are kind of just starting our gun collection and getting into shooting. We are going to become members at the local range with a 1000 yard bench range. I know that I am not qualified to make 500 yard shots right now let alone 1000 yards.

Starting with a less expensive rifle and working up to the expensive ones was not something I was looking into. I figure that if I just started with the expensive one then that would be best. I dont see why not because if I cant do it then ill hold onto it for a while and sell it later(hopefully even make a buck or two). I am always open to reasons against my ideas so if anyone has anything else...
 
I'm pretty dedicated to the .308 at the moment, but if I was going to build a new rifle for 1000 yrds, it would probably be a 6.5-.284.

You can spend a wallet full of money on long-range rifles and gear, but if you are not up to the task of shooting at that distance it will not do you much good. Buy a decent rifle with good optics (I am talking $800-1000 range) and learn to shoot at the ranges you are talking about. This will take a few years and a few thousand rounds. By the time the bore is shot out of that rifle you will "hopefully" be ready to take a step up to something like the AI you mentioned in the OP.

I am partial to the Savage F/TR in .308. I have spent more than I care to admit on it. It was a shooter out of the box, and has gotten better with the mods I have done.


T2E
 
The Palmer shooter that owns that ugly blue rifle is a hack.

It's a Winchester action with an ugly rod welded on for a bolt handle. To win the nationals one has to have a fancy Nesika or Stolle action right?

John is a friend and builds a heck of a rifle. He has won the nationals twice with a Winchester action and Kent Reeve won it with a Mauser action two years ago.

There are much better calibers to shoot 1K with than the .308. Shooters that compete at the nationals at Perry only shoot the Palma .308 in the Palma matches. The rest of the time they shoot other calibers like the 6.5x284. Kent shot a 300 Win mag when he won.
 
This nice buck was taken at 347 long strides. Rifle is a Remington model 660 in .308 with 2X - 7X scope. It was a long, long, long shot taken under IDEAL conditions: cloudless sky, almost no breeze, calm and undisturbed broadside animal. In my opinion, shooting at a live animal much farther than this distance is not responsible hunting. Anyone is allowed to disagree. (politely please)

TR

JFlongshotfin.jpg
 
Anyone is allowed to disagree
Click to expand...
What about varmint hunting:neener: (while not polite, meant in fun:D)


Starting with a less expensive rifle and working up to the expensive ones was not something I was looking into. I figure that if I just started with the expensive one then that would be best
Click to expand...
I personally do the same thing a LOT, so i have ended up with some pretty nice guns. Not a lot of them though. If i were in your spot, i would go with the savage F/TR, it is capable of accuracy like custom rifles costing a LOT more. If you ever want a different (better ballistically) caliber, you can just buy a new barrel and use anything .308 based. .243 win, .260 rem, 7mm-08 rem, and others all have better LR ballistics than the .308. That rifle will run you 1k or so, then you have plenty of money for glass and pratice ammo vs getting a custom job.
 
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