Is this common at IDPA matches?

[Albatross]

I went with a group of pals a week ago to a IDPA match in a large metropolitan area a long way from our standard stomping grouns (in another state). We've all shot many small IDPA matches in our local area and had a very different experience at this match with more than 150 competitors.

Everything seemed typical, like all the matches we've done before. But things were very different.

The first stage the SO shouted, literally shouted, at one of the guys in the group for 'airgunning'. My buddy had, with an imaginary machine gun held at the hip said, "pew, pew, pew" while chuckling a bit. My pal was taken aback and said, "Sorry dude, man relax. I wasn't looking to gain advantage, won't happen again." It was pretty weird.

Then, on the second stage one of the competitors balanced on one foot in order to engage targets. He was literally leaning around the barricade with one leg extended like a ballerina. We all though it was a joke and chuckled and laughed.

Apparently it wasn't, during the next few stages we all received many procedurals for failing to use cover. In fact, the cover calls were so strict that someone got dinged even though he was balancing on one foot. Some of my group even got multiple cover procedurals on the same stage.

It got super weird. My buddy was shooting a 1911. The course of fire called for 6 shots at a target while walking backwards. While walking backwards he emptied his entire magazine at the target, got behind cover, reloaded and finished the rest of the stage. One of the SO's flipped out. Started accusing him of "Failure to do right" asking him if he intentionally emptied his gun for advantage.

My pal replied, "Of course I intentionally emptied my gun. I don't pull the trigger on accident."

The SO snarled, "That's a failure to do right! A 20 second penalty!"

And my pal just laughed at him, "Take it easy, write whatever you want on the score card I'm just here for a fun afternoon." and then walked away from the dude visibly disgusted. The best part, my pal didn't even neutralize the target. He only got 5 hits out of the 8. There are a bunch more examples just like this, it happened constantly. We all received more procedurals, warnings and threats than all our previous dozens of matches combined.

I wasn't spared either, I was on the shooting line, at the last stage, holding a stick gun. I had it sorta pointed down range at the targets waiting for commands and the RO accused me of airgunning. I asked how I should hold the stick gun then and he just moved on and told me to make ready.

My question is: is this sort of gaming stuff a regular thing? Is this how all big IDPA matches are? Were the stage officers just messing with us because we were a large group of young men (in our mid-twenties)? They were verging on aggressive.

I just thought I'd ask because our experience at this major match was so divergent from our previous experiences.

 

[Jim Watson]

No.
I can count on the fingers of one thumb the places I have been like that.

 

[Justin]

I once encountered one knob of an IDPA SO who was like that, but never an entire match full of them.

 

[rduckwor]

Wow! Sounds like you found the one bad apple in the barrel. Some guys forget this is for fun and none of us will save the baby seals by shooting IDPA.

I wouldn't bother to go back and I would let the Match Director know of your experiences.

Better luck next time

RMD

 

[WNTFW]

I have encountered 2 RO at 2 different matches that seemed to be on my case.

I was at a pistol match the first time I went. I honestly think he was testing me to see what my reaction would be. He lightened up almost immediately.

At a rifle match I had one guy that was calling me out for doing exactly what was asked of me. I still can't figure what the problem was. I wrote it off as a "Napolean Complex".

FWIW I didn't laugh at either RO, snicker, joke or anything to fuel any attitude. The RO has the right to be wary of new guys. Being even a little abusive is crossing the line. Some people love the power trip. What good is it if they can't flaunt it.

I would rather have a hard case that is safe than a RO that lets safety rules be blatantly violated. It can be accomplished with some tact.

 

[Hoser]

We had one guy here like that. He got worse with time. I pulled his SO card and asked him to not SO for me anymore. "Feel free to shoot here, but dont pick up a timer."

He left the sport 2-3 months later.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yes, we had a dictatorial SO cut from the staff roster. He still shoots but is not encouraged to work.

But you have to remember, this is all volunteer labor and the MD may not always be able to get the best to volunteer. If you don't like the way a bay was run, maybe it is time for you to offer to handle it at the next shoot.

 

[fractal7]

I've encountered people like that at IDPA matches and is the reason I avoid some of the local ones here. In my case, the RO thought that part of my loose shirt was a safety hazard when reholstering, which I think I was ok, but I can see his point and I would have taken care of it immediately. Rather than talking to me like an adult, and something to the effect of "Excuse me, I think it would be safer if you made sure to keep your shirt tucked out of the way during holstering". He audibly let out a sort of frustrated grunt, waited for me to shoot my stage and then yelled to everyone "All you guys shooting these Glocks and XDs (he was shooting a 1911) without external safeties need to watch your shirts or else we're going to bounce you for range violations"

 

[ny32182]

Was this a club match or a major (sanctioned) match?

Cover according to the letter of the law is tight: If you can draw a straight line between any part of your foot and the target, you are technically in violation. I've rarely seen it called that tight on a consistent basis, but it can be.

Also, "dumping rounds" is not legal, which your buddy admitted to doing. FTDR is steep, but is the proscribed penalty. Neither are airgunning, or "individual" walkthroughs.

That doesn't excuse a confrontational tone; unfortunately a few SO's are not cut out for the job, but like someone said, I've never seen a whole match full of them. Any chance you just went from a "norm" of a club that doesn't call the game very tightly to one that does? This is one reason it is good to get around a bit if you intend to shoot sanctioned matches: experience with different personalities will help you out with going into "unfamiliar" circumstances.

 

[waktasz]

I would have a hard time calling FTDR for round dumping if the guy didn't even hit the target the prescribed number of times.

 

[Albatross]

This isn't exactly our first time away from our standard matches, we had all at various times shot at different competitions nearby (three guns, other IDPA, Practical rifle shoots).

It wasn't exactly our first rodeo. It was however, the first time we've ever seen someone (loads of people regularly) stand on one foot during a defensive pistol match. Balancing on one foot? How is that good practice for a defensive pistol situation?

I've sort of inferred from ny32182 remarks (it was a club match, btw) that some of what was going on is typical outside of our normal haunts. Apparently our previous local matches were not run in a "tight" manner. Good thing too.

Doesn't make much since to me. IDPA the new IPSC?

 

[Sam1911]

Albatross, from you description, I'd say that you did run into some fellows who were a little too tightly wound. (I'd have a hard time giving a round-dumping FTDR to a shooter who wasn't obviously an Expert or Master trying to "game" the course, but that's just me.) Beyond that, who can say?

Your best bet would be to keep shooting as many matches -- especially at other clubs -- as you can. As you get more experience you'll get a feel for how the rules are interpreted by "most" SOs and MDs, and will be better able to tell if these folks are a good representation of the sport as a whole.

My money's on "no," but everyone has a different interpretation of "how tight is tight?" you know?

 

[MrBorland]

Cover according to the letter of the law is tight: If you can draw a straight line between any part of your foot and the target, you are technically in violation. I've rarely seen it called that tight on a consistent basis, but it can be.

Also, "dumping rounds" is not legal, which your buddy admitted to doing. FTDR is steep, but is the proscribed penalty. Neither are airgunning, or "individual" walkthroughs.

I've sort of inferred from ny32182 remarks (it was a club match, btw) that some of what was going on is typical outside of our normal haunts.

Well, there's the letter of the law, and there's the matter of how tightly it'll be enforced while still being a legit, fair but fun IDPA match. Sounds like this one was pretty tight. I hope you keep participating elsewhere, though.

As to the FTDR for round dumping, it's tough to enforce - unless the offender confesses, who's to say someone simply didn't take extra only because they weren't sure they made their hits? Sounds like your bud got the FTDR because he did confess. Saying "I wasn't sure I made my hits" puts the ball back in the ROs court, at which point it would've likely been dropped.

FWIW, I initiated a reload too early, but got the procedural because I admitted it. I knew I started 1 step too early, and immediately after the stage, turned to the RO and said "yeah...I know...procedural for busting cover during the reload". He later told me it was too close to call, but I made my little public announcement and left him no choice. Note to self: Zip it, and let the RO make the calls.

I also very nearly got an FTDR for an individual walkthrough. I got to the line early, and while waiting for the scoring to finish, I started looking around at the targets, complete with body "english", making sure my plan was solid. The RO made it clear I was on some very thin ice. IMO, the RO handled it well - a firm and clear warning without being a jerk, and taught me another good lesson to boot.

 

[FTG-05]

When I was a RO shooting IPSC, the only time I shouted was for safety reasons, i.e. round leaving the range, people walking down range before show clear etc.

I've only shot a couple IDPA matches, but they all seemed contrived and overly controlled (shoot only x rounds on these targets in this order standing on one toe with your left elbow like this....). Didn't care for it.

 

[jmorris]

What club were you at?

There are RO's that go overboard, just a fact of life. You just have to make sure your are within the rules, for sure. Including using cover, air gunning and walking through by yourself. Nothing gamey about enforcing the rules but you can game a bit by the path you walk to tape targets. You can't let the sticklers get to you or you'll hose a sanctioned match some day, they exist at every level. What makes it worse is most seem to be harder on lower class shooters than those at the top of the game. Then again that may be just knowing the dance. I bet I received more PE's in my first month shooting unclassified than the years since I made 5 gun master.

Doesn't make much since to me. IDPA the new IPSC?

This doesn't make much since to me, USPSA is a free for all compaired to IDPA. Maybe the problem?

 

[ny32182]

Just for the record, I usually do the "one foot balancing act" at least once a match depending on target placement.

 

[FTG-05]

BTW, what is "air gunning"? I've never heard that term before.

Thanks,

 

[Bovice]

"Air gunning" is when you walk around a stage as if you're shooting it, but you're using an empty hand to simulate holding a gun. The thinking behind the rule is that it gives someone an unfair advantage when they shoot the stage for real. It's like a rehearsal. What's perfectly legal is walking around and LOOKING at the stage, but don't physically emulate what you're planning to do. Just think about it.

I shoot IDPA at my local range and there's one S.O. who is just as you described. He even made the same "FTDR" call on an older gentleman who was having trouble seeing holes as he was backing up and firing through a doorway, so he fired 2 extra which ran his gun empty. The S.O. threw a fit, started screaming like a child, saying that he was CHEATING. The shooter had been taking it easy all day, he was just there for the fun of it, and it wasn't like he was in the running for 1st place anyways.

I was embarassed that a safety officer was acting that way at a range which opens it's "doors" to the public for IDPA events. Do you really think you'd leave with a good impression after seeing that temper tantrum? I told him to settle down, after all, you don't get much more than a cardboard cookie and a rubber raisin even if you do win.

I've found a safety officer that likes to pretty much run the match for fun, and isn't easily bent out of shape. I always sign up to start off with that bunch. That way I don't have to hear all the yelling and screaming. Legitimate safety issues are worth the noise. Anything else really isn't. It's a game, people. As long as you don't forget that it's a game, it doesn't matter. That doesn't mean throw the rulebook out. But there's no reason for the drama.

 

[Sam1911]

"Air gunning" refers to walking through a stage before you shoot, choreographing your footsteps and shooting process. It gets its name from the fact that most guys doing this hold their hands up like they're shooting an (absent) gun, going "bang, bang, ... bang, bang..." and so on as they work our their fastest route through the stage.

IDPA doesn't allow such because it holds up the flow of the match while everyone waits for "Joe Grandmaster" to decide if he should pirouette left or jete to the right. Plus, while the stages aren't shot "blind," not having practiced each shot before hand is seen to be a bit more (dare I say it?) realistic.

 

[Jim Watson]

What makes it worse is most seem to be harder on lower class shooters than those at the top of the game. Then again that may be just knowing the dance.

Right the second time.
You are doing a beginner no favor by cutting him slack on procedural errors.
Many people depend on learning the rules one penalty at a time, reading the rules is too much like work. And a bit confusing, I admit.

I regret anybody running into a disagreeable SO. Or RO, human nature is not limited to IDPA. But if you think they should change the rules to suit your preferences, maybe you should look into other sports.

 

[ave8er]

I had my worst experience ever at an IDPA match. I used to change squads from match to match thinking I could pick up a few tid bits from different people that would help me become a better shooter. I got on a squad that had a lady shooter that carried the rule book in her pocket and would whip it out and slap you in the face with it every chance she could. It was a miserable match... During the walk throughs she screamed the "NO AIR GUNNING" command several times all you had to do was point at a target. She would yell, from the gallery no less, FINGER or COVER or MOVE or my favorite..... when the shooter unloaded and showed clear before he could holster his weapon... PASTERS! She was so overbearing that the match was not even fun! :banghead: I enjoy IDPA more so than USPSA because the stage descriptions kind of help me see the stage better. I am not a very good shooter and this is supposed to be fun. It sucks when some over bearing know it all takes the fun out of the GAME. I have since found "my squad" I don't change squads any more. The squad I shoot on has a core group of 5 or 6 guys and We are safe, we are respectful and we enjoy the game and each others company. Don't let some overjealous RO or SO deter you from IDPA.

 

[FTG-05]

Jim, I don't hear anyone saying "change the rules". What I hear is "keep it civil, if not fun".

This is readily doable. Again, going back to my IPSC RO experience, when someone would make a procedural error, I would just point it out to the crowd so that everyone saw it, then explain it to the shooter when the gun was shown clear and holstered. This is for non-safety violations only - things that don't really matter except maybe for somebody's score - whoopie.

There were only two times I had to scream. Once was during an APSC match when someone let a round go off-range - anyone who knows the APSC range, this is hard to do with it's 100 foot cliff right in front of you. Guy was shooting some kind of Coonan .45 something or other, fired it off while in full recoil about 45 degrees above horizontal. I had to get him stopped in a hurry right then and there.

The second time was when I was a guest RO at an IDPA match on Sand Mountain. I was using my IPSC RO training where no one moved forward until the shooter showed clear and holstered his gun. In one match I was ROing, several people moved forward of the line while the shooter was in the process of showing clear, still had his gun out and they were moving in front of the weapon with it in his hand. I have no clue if that's normal for IDPA; it sure as hell isn't for IPSC. I was embarrassed as hell until the end of the match when the MD came up to me and said I was great. I didn't feel great, I'll tell you that.

 

[Jim Watson]

I guess I interpret a lot of such posts differently.

I agree with screaming in a safety situation.

I am not teaching a shooting course, I give a procedural, any explanation is going to be VERY short. Gave, I no longer SO at a shoot of any size, I have been cheated, cursed, and lied to and about enough. I quit when crap from prima donnas made me irritable to everybody.

 

[ny32182]

Going foward of the shooter's 180 at the time he is showing clear is not normal in IDPA; that is likely the only time I would "yell" as an SO if someone was getting into a position truly close to in front of the shooter before the gun is holstered.

Regarding the score, we keep score for a reason. There is a difference between a "new shooter", and a first timer. The later, I will cut some slack. The former, I will rapidly reduce the amount of slack (given the shooter is a physically firm, competent individual of course) as the rules are explained. The major tenants aren't that hard to understand. There are people at every level who wish to compete, and in light of that, handing out "freebies" is not to anyone's benefit. If you are "just there for a good time", then you won't mind penalties anyway. I promise I won't be an <deleted> while handing them out.

 

[dhfenno]

There is no reason for anyone to have to put up with that.
Hopefully you and your friends will continue to shoot IDPA and have a better experience.
Few of the thoughts I have had in reading this thread.
1) When engaging 3 targets while retreating or doing any kind of movement I will empty a single stack 1911. Any shot taken on the move or at distance (unless you're damn sure) deserves an extra shot.
2) Never announce what you did wrong. Take it like a man if you are called on it because you earned it but don't mention it unless asked.
3) Never be afraid to ask the "peanut gallery" to be quiet while you are shooting and being scored. It's not their place to say a thing unless there is a dangerous situation. Ask nicely 1 time and if that doesn't work start screaming all kinds of crazy stuff when they shoot. They will learn.
4) If you are at a firing position and someone starts yelling "cover" ignore them. You have already earned a 3 sec. penalty and there is no reason to take another 4secs. trying to correct it. Just blaze away and take your 3 secs. you paid for them so enjoy them.
5) A FTDR is a serious penalty that I believe should be reserved for cheaters and those who are going out of their way to circumvent the rules and gain an unfair advantage disregarding the spirit of the game. I have had to DQ shooters but in 10 years as a SO I can't remember giving a FTDR.
6) Unless there is a serious safety violation I can't think of any other reason to scream at anyone and I'm sorry you were subjected to that kind of treatment.