Absolutely. The thing is, 95% of my (domestic) hunting and all longer shots happen in 20-40°F temperature at 0-800' from sea level so possible wind correction is the only major variable I may come across. YMMV.
Is your rifle 400yd ready?
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CoalTrain49
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We were going over that today at the range. 400 yds is difficult with the best of rifles.
I'm not so sure the run-of-the-mill $750 AR is a 400 yard rifle. Most of them that I've seen are lucky to do 2 moa. That equates to 8" at 400. Add a little wind and a hold over that might not be exact and you have maybe 10-12". I can barely shoot my 1 moa heavy barrel bolt gun 1 moa at 200 from the bench but I'm new to this. I know it isn't the rifle because I can shoot it 1 moa constantly at 100 yds. I wouldn't have a prayer at 400 with wind and hold over. The most glaring factor to me here would be the rifle, then the ammo, then the shooter. The heavy bullet will help but I'm not sure that's the answer.
I have to ask. Is that a 1 moa rifle? If you don't know you should find out. If it isn't you should make it one. Maybe buy a custom barrel (.223) for it and start shooting some paper at 100 until you can dial it into 1 moa. Once you have that worked out sight it in for 200 and do the math for a 400 yd hold over. Those chicken and pheasant poachers deserve nothing less.
3x9 scope will help at 400.
I'm not so sure the run-of-the-mill $750 AR is a 400 yard rifle. Most of them that I've seen are lucky to do 2 moa. That equates to 8" at 400. Add a little wind and a hold over that might not be exact and you have maybe 10-12". I can barely shoot my 1 moa heavy barrel bolt gun 1 moa at 200 from the bench but I'm new to this. I know it isn't the rifle because I can shoot it 1 moa constantly at 100 yds. I wouldn't have a prayer at 400 with wind and hold over. The most glaring factor to me here would be the rifle, then the ammo, then the shooter. The heavy bullet will help but I'm not sure that's the answer.
I have to ask. Is that a 1 moa rifle? If you don't know you should find out. If it isn't you should make it one. Maybe buy a custom barrel (.223) for it and start shooting some paper at 100 until you can dial it into 1 moa. Once you have that worked out sight it in for 200 and do the math for a 400 yd hold over. Those chicken and pheasant poachers deserve nothing less.
3x9 scope will help at 400.
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OP
OP
Armored farmer
Member
My field(range) has become so muddy that i am waiting for anothet freeze to stiffen things back up. My spotting scope doesnt help much with .223 holes at 400yds.
I have two boxes of new ammo to try.
My lgs owner claims they are accurate
.im going to move my zero out to 200yds.
My Nikon Spot On app suggests the first horizontal bdc mark is at 409yds.
I have two boxes of new ammo to try.
My lgs owner claims they are accurate
.im going to move my zero out to 200yds.My Nikon Spot On app suggests the first horizontal bdc mark is at 409yds.
Driftertank
Member
I have 3 "go-to" rifles, a .223 AR, a .308 PTR-91F, and a 7mm Rem 700LR.
It's a "stepped" setup.
My 16" AR15 is zeroed at a practical 50/200yds. It will hit pretty easily out to 400 with a 75 BTHP. It's not what i would grab specifically for that range.
My PTR has rung steel out to 600m with my 165 SST handload, and taken a running song-dog at about 350. It was running because the first shot missed just high. The one that connected was a gut-shot. It did the trick, but i felt bad watching it die for 15 minutes.
My 7mm is 400yds BORING. The local public range has gongs staggered behind the 100yd berm, every 50yds from 200 to 450, but they get bigger as they go out. I think the 450 is something like 30" across. I have a spot i like to visit with a friend, where i can try to get out to 1200m. We use 16" steel diamonds. I typically check zero by dialling out at 400m for my cold shot. 600 is challenging, depending on the wind. 800 is fairly tough for me, at the moment. But i have a new load to try, and hopefully it will make working the wind easier.
It's a "stepped" setup.
My 16" AR15 is zeroed at a practical 50/200yds. It will hit pretty easily out to 400 with a 75 BTHP. It's not what i would grab specifically for that range.
My PTR has rung steel out to 600m with my 165 SST handload, and taken a running song-dog at about 350. It was running because the first shot missed just high. The one that connected was a gut-shot. It did the trick, but i felt bad watching it die for 15 minutes.
My 7mm is 400yds BORING. The local public range has gongs staggered behind the 100yd berm, every 50yds from 200 to 450, but they get bigger as they go out. I think the 450 is something like 30" across. I have a spot i like to visit with a friend, where i can try to get out to 1200m. We use 16" steel diamonds. I typically check zero by dialling out at 400m for my cold shot. 600 is challenging, depending on the wind. 800 is fairly tough for me, at the moment. But i have a new load to try, and hopefully it will make working the wind easier.
CoalTrain49
Member
I had one of those. Actually several. I wuz real happy when Wm. R. Weaver made me a optical sighting device I could afford.
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Chuck R.
Member
Add in a Kestrel that feeds the ballistic software and it makes it somewhat easier, but the wind is still a huge factor. I routinely shoot out to 760 on my place and even with accurate weather data, sub MOA ammo/rifle, known distance and tgt size, multiple chrono data points fed into the software I still probably average right around 75-80% 1st round hits on a 19x12 silhouette. The wind is a biatch, especially when it varies and the terrain isn't flat with broken tree lines.
But that's what makes it fun.
someguy2800
Member
I have not moved my targets out yet to practice at long range but my 20" ballistic advantage barrel AR is showing a lot of promise with factory hornady 75 gr steel match. I worked up some handloads with the same 75 bthp bullet as well as 68 gr hornady's and 77 grain sierra's, but the cheap hornady steel case stuff is almost as accurate and doesn't take any work so I might just be done with loading 223.
I can get about .8 to moa with handloads but the hornady steel match does right at 1 moa, doesn't cost any more, and saves a lot of work so why not? I'm anxious to try it at 4-500 yards with a 8" plate, and then on yotes. My 4" 200 yard plate is easy as easy as pie and the 2" plate is about 80% hits. My 25-06 will put 10 out of 10 on the 2" plate.
I can get about .8 to moa with handloads but the hornady steel match does right at 1 moa, doesn't cost any more, and saves a lot of work so why not? I'm anxious to try it at 4-500 yards with a 8" plate, and then on yotes. My 4" 200 yard plate is easy as easy as pie and the 2" plate is about 80% hits. My 25-06 will put 10 out of 10 on the 2" plate.
Captcurt
Member
Exactly. Shooting off a lead-sled or sandbags is one, but unless you are set up in a shooting house, it is no resemblance to field conditions. Hiking up a 30 degree grade for a mile and then trying to punch a hole in a Muley on the other hillside with nothing but a coat or a backpack for a rest is the test.
I have several rifles that are good to 400 and beyond.But it's a big difference between shooting off a solid rest or a bipod at a steel or paper target with all the time you need to dial the range,check the wind and leisurely squeeze off a shot and a hurried poke at a jittery coyote in bad light and wind with your only rest being a log or a daypack.My AR in 223 will pop one gallon milk jugs at 600 yards all day long,but under field conditions,400 will take it all to get the job done.For coyotes,I would rather use my 22-250 or 25-06.Both are bolt guns and both are very accurate.Most of the rifles that I have are more than able to handle 400 yards.I shoot at a 16 inch square plate from 300 to 1000 yards and 500 yards in the wind I will rarely miss.I pick windy days to slip down in the hayfields and try to learn all I can about hitting a small target that's far away under less than ideal conditions.My rifles are ready,but my shooting ability is the limiting factor.
Glockula
Member
Several but my Winchester model 70 300wsm, Weatherby vanguard deluxe. 270 and Remington 700 BDL 30-06 top the list.
CoalTrain49
Member
I personally like the idea of using an AR for coyotes. Not all shots are going to be 400 yds. You have a utility rifle you can bang around and not worry about a few scratches here and there. If you are mobile a good part of the time, which farmers and ranchers seem to be, your rifle is going to get beat up.
I know a guy who lives in eastern WA who has a farm. He owns a lot of equipment as he does contract work for other farmers in the Palouse. He's in his tractors a lot or going to or from them. He carries an AR strictly for coyotes. There are a lot of coyotes over there because there are a lot of rabbits, birds and rodents. I used to flush coyotes out of the brush a lot when I hunted over there. On real windy days they can't hear very well.
If you miss a few coyotes here and there it isn't the end of the world. It's like bird hunting, there are just going to be some that are out of range.
I know a guy who lives in eastern WA who has a farm. He owns a lot of equipment as he does contract work for other farmers in the Palouse. He's in his tractors a lot or going to or from them. He carries an AR strictly for coyotes. There are a lot of coyotes over there because there are a lot of rabbits, birds and rodents. I used to flush coyotes out of the brush a lot when I hunted over there. On real windy days they can't hear very well.
If you miss a few coyotes here and there it isn't the end of the world.
It's like bird hunting, there are just going to be some that are out of range.
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I'm old (and old fashioned), I have an AR, but it's open sighted for use on coyotes at less than 200 yards. The rifle I've killed the most coyotes with is a 25-06 I built on a 1903 Springfield action in the mid 80s. It is scoped with an old Weaver Wideview 3-9 that I bought in the 70s. I've killed one coyote at 500 and another at 550 with it, shooting prone with a Harris bipod. I use my handload consisting of a 100 gr Nosler Ballistic tip and IMR4350 at 3300 fps.
JeffG
Member
You bet. My Savage 10 Predator Max in 243 is set up out to 400. I turn the necks and have worked loads to 1/2 inch at 100 yards. I shoot 87 gr Vmax, they work great for me. 4-16x scope helps a lot, the traj is programmed into the scope. .
RugerOldArmy
Member
If I was to hunt coyotes @400, I'd probably use one of my .22-250s and a 60Gr V-Max load. I have a Savage BVSS/Nightforce rig and a Rem XR-100/Leupold rig in .22-250.
I'd likely use the BVSS with a bipod in the field, for the XR1000 is much fussier on how it is supported, to wring accuracy out of it. The Savage seems to shoot well regardless of how the stock is supported. This would be a big factor in my decision.
Both are big, and a bit heavy guns for the field. I'd think about a 6mm BR/Nightforce combo if weight wasn't even more of an issue, ...or my Savage/Nikon .270 Win (Sierra 90 Gr Varminter load) if I had to carry it a long way and was less concerned about damage that it would do.
I have a slew of .223 Rem options...but a 400 yard shot would have me looking at other options.
I'd likely use the BVSS with a bipod in the field, for the XR1000 is much fussier on how it is supported, to wring accuracy out of it. The Savage seems to shoot well regardless of how the stock is supported. This would be a big factor in my decision.
Both are big, and a bit heavy guns for the field. I'd think about a 6mm BR/Nightforce combo if weight wasn't even more of an issue, ...or my Savage/Nikon .270 Win (Sierra 90 Gr Varminter load) if I had to carry it a long way and was less concerned about damage that it would do.
I have a slew of .223 Rem options...but a 400 yard shot would have me looking at other options.
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RugerOldArmy
Member
I think I ended up watering down what I was trying to say in my previous post.
When I was describing of my .Rem and Savage .22-250s there was a big inherent difference between them. Both rifles could regularly shoot nice 1/2 MOA groups repeatedly. But there would be a real difference between the two in the field. The Rem XR shoots great when the forearm is supported behind the bipod/sling stud and held lightly to the shoulder. But support it from the same bag farther up by the stud, or put it on a bipod, and it did not shoot near as well...groups becoming 1.5 MOA versus 0.5 MOA. (This isn't an issue of the forearm touching the barrel in one case and not the other. The XR is glass bedded and generously free floated too.)
The Savage BVSS shot well most any way it was supported, regardless of where on the forearm it was supported, or whether it was supported by a bipod, and elbow, or a log. As such, the two rifles that were capable of shooting very similar groups from a bench were distinctly different when shooting from other methods of support...such as you may do in the field.
Maybe the OP had such a situation....where his rifle that shot well at the range with a rest, shot differently in the field with different support and field positions.
Just my $.02
When I was describing of my .Rem and Savage .22-250s there was a big inherent difference between them. Both rifles could regularly shoot nice 1/2 MOA groups repeatedly. But there would be a real difference between the two in the field. The Rem XR shoots great when the forearm is supported behind the bipod/sling stud and held lightly to the shoulder. But support it from the same bag farther up by the stud, or put it on a bipod, and it did not shoot near as well...groups becoming 1.5 MOA versus 0.5 MOA. (This isn't an issue of the forearm touching the barrel in one case and not the other. The XR is glass bedded and generously free floated too.)
The Savage BVSS shot well most any way it was supported, regardless of where on the forearm it was supported, or whether it was supported by a bipod, and elbow, or a log. As such, the two rifles that were capable of shooting very similar groups from a bench were distinctly different when shooting from other methods of support...such as you may do in the field.
Maybe the OP had such a situation....where his rifle that shot well at the range with a rest, shot differently in the field with different support and field positions.
Just my $.02
I'm working on getting my 30-06 out to those ranges. I'm confident the gun and glass are up to the task, but finding a place that I can shoot that far is the main challenge, and without a chronograph, my ballistic tables are kind of an educated guess...
However, I'm extremely confident that my Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 is not ready for 400 yards, and I will be shocked if it ever is
However, I'm extremely confident that my Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 is not ready for 400 yards, and I will be shocked if it ever is
Varminterror
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You don't NEED a chronograph. Just a place to shoot, relatively large targets, and a couple dozen rounds - especially if you're only talking about 0-400yrd shooting. A modern bottleneck cartridge isn't going to drop enough to make a chronograph a requirement. If you can get zeroed at 100, then walk back every 100yrds, you'll have a good enough fit even using a generic online calculator (like handloads.com/calc) to get you on target, so the fine tuning to center on target is just a matter of walking the group into center.
Most of us start with some estimate for muzzle velocity - sometimes a chronograph reading, sometimes not - then true our muzzle velocity in the calculator using real field-proven DOPE. So the chronograph isn't really a foundation stone anyway. A guy can start with a book number, a factory box number, or a SWAG estimate and get on paper out to 600-800 simply by walking out, then use that to true MV backwards anyway.
Finding a spot to shoot long is a pretty common challenge. No common solution, other than "find a place where you can shoot long," but that might mean different costs and different travel times for different individuals.
JeffG
Member
Great post, pretty much sums up my experience. I can shoot out to 300yds, at my club range. After that its' a dope adjustment from learned experience.
ltcjwb
Member
My Sig M400 16" drops 350-400 fps MV from what's on the box, depending on the load. Assuming Hornady 53 gr Vmax at 3100, instead of the factory listed 3465, loaded into the Nikon SpotOn program, with a 100 yard zero at sea level, it should drop about 2" at 200, almost 9 at 300 and 21+ at 400. The BDC marks should be at 404, 658 and 775 at the post.
ltcjwb
Member
Put a layer of freezer paper behind your target. It helps.
Chuck R.
Member
I personally like the idea of using an AR for coyotes. Not all shots are going to be 400 yds. You have a utility rifle you can bang around and not worry about a few scratches here and there. If you are mobile a good part of the time, which farmers and ranchers seem to be, your rifle is going to get beat up.
I know a guy who lives in eastern WA who has a farm. He owns a lot of equipment as he does contract work for other farmers in the Palouse. He's in his tractors a lot or going to or from them. He carries an AR strictly for coyotes. There are a lot of coyotes over there because there are a lot of rabbits, birds and rodents. I used to flush coyotes out of the brush a lot when I hunted over there. On real windy days they can't hear very well.
If you miss a few coyotes here and there it isn't the end of the world.
The guys I hunt yotes with (calling) have all gone to ARs, sometimes we also carry shotguns or at least one guy on our team will carry one (closest to caller/decoy). In Eastern KS the ranges are relatively short and if you're calling they're generally on the move coming in (hence the shotguns). Occasionally you'll get one that hangs up on the fringe, and that's where the AR with a low powered variable comes in to play. My "purpose" built yote AR is a 16" LW Larue barrel wearing a VX6 1-6X Leupold. It's a < 1MOA gun with my Nosler 60 BT handloads, lightweight with fast follow-up shots.
Most of what we do is; set-up call for 15-20 mins then move, depending on the property size we might do 3-5 "stands" and end up hiking 3-5 miles in a morning. Mobility is key as is not wasting time in a non-productive spot. My "typical" varmint rifle; REM 700 XCR tactical in .223, with Leupold MK4 6.5-20X sits at home when we go out.
MachIVshooter
Member
I have several that are minute of coyote at 400 yards. That's not terribly difficult from a stable position. Any of my hunting rifles will pull it off, not to mention varmint and target rifles that are .5-.7 MOA. Off the top of my head, centerfire rifles ascending in caliber that I could easily hit a 6-8 kill zone with at 400 yards with from a bench or prone if I just grabbed them off the rack:
Remington 700 BDL .17 Rem w/Weaver 4-16x V-16 UFCH
NEF .22 Hornet w/Bushnell 4-12 duplex
22" .223 Wylde bull barrel AR w/Pentax 5-15x
Remington 700 BDL .25-06 w/Leupold VXIII 4.5-14x
Remington 770 .308 w/Simmons ATV 4-14x
Palmetto PA-10 .308 w/ATN X-sight 4-12x
Remington 700 BDL 8mm Rem Mag w/Redfield 2-7x
Remington 700 BDL .375 Ultra w/Leupold VXII 4-12x
Armalite AR50 w/6.5-20x
I have several other rifles that are capable, both AR and bolt action, but they're either open sights or unmagnified optics, so while I would take the shot, the odds of success even with my 20/12 vision are definitely lower than the ones with quality magnified optics.
When about 20 years old, more than 50 years ago, I shot a woodchuck at about 500 yards. His mound was on a side hill and recently been "refreshed" so it stood out big-time in the grass. Took two shots to get him with my Savage 110, 30-06 with 2.5X Weaver. Estimated 4 1/2 feet of drop and about 8 inches of drift. He was originally standing up, but went down the hole, but came up and laid across the dirt, so only about 3" was showing. He went down the hole slowly and there was considerable "red" on top of the dirt.
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