Ishapore Enfields in 7.62/.308

[buzz meeks]

Howdy. Six or eight years ago I traded away a sporterized Enfield 1917 with bad headspace for one of those Ishapore Enfields (2A I think). I know, bad trade, headspace notwithstanding. Anyway, the damage is done. And at the time I though a rifle that combined all the best qualities of the SMLE family with the benefits of the .308 cartridge had to be a good thing. After all, while the rifle had a rough finish and many handling marks, its chrome lined bore was like new and the headspace checked out. At the range the rifle shot just fine. Good enough for government work at any rate.

I would have been happy enough. But at about the same time, I discovered the internet. All over the place were warnings that Ishapores would fragment if they saw ammo that was 1 p.s.i. or 1 c.u.p. over spec. The Ishapore also became central to debates over the 7.62mm cartridge versus the .308 Winchester cartridge. Basically, I got scared and confused and let that rifle moulder in a back corner of the safe. But not after I totally bubba-ized the wood.

So now it's 2004. Ishapores have been on the market for some time now. Have we resolved the ammo debate? Can they handle modern sporting ammo? Can they handle .308 commercial ammo? Have we arrived at a useful lifespan for an Ishapore? What's their track record been like over the past decade?

I'm in a consolidating frame of mind basically. Stuff I haven't used in a long time is on the chopping block. With this Ishapore, I only see a few choices. Give it to a young guy I work with for free because he is an impoverished gun nut. Pay for new wood and sell it. Spend two hundred bucks and scout-ify it. What would you do?

 

[hillbilly]

Here's something for you to read.

Or, you can just that rifle to me for about $20 so you don't die from a blow-up.


http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/oddshot2/index.asp



The Great Exploding Receiver Controversy.

It all began when these Indian made copies of the venerated British-built Short Magazine Lee-Enfield (SMLE) rifle began showing up in large numbers at gun shops and gun shows. Somebody remembered seeing a warning in an NRA publication about a Lee-Enfield "something or other" having "some sorta" horrible problem that caused the gun to blow up in the shooters face, causing disaster, disfigurement, death and taxes. To some military rifle collectors, because the Ishapur Enfield was built in India, and India is a "third world country", the 2A and 2A1 rifle just HAD to be the rifle that the NRA was talking about.

After all, went the popular thinking, any rifle built in India just HAD to be no damn good.


"Enlightened gun experts" would scream their cautionary, but unconfirmed (!), tale to any and all. Because of these dire warnings, a number of gun clubs and at least one public range in New Jersey would not permit the R.F.I. rifle to be fired on their property. I'm sure that it was worse in other parts of this country.

This controversy quickly spread to the internet where great pitched battles raged. "A man would be a fool to shoot one of these Indian Rifles...just look at what happened over there at that gas plant in Bhopal, India. It was in 1984, 6,000 people died, countless more were injured. Those Indian engineers couldn't pour urine from a boot if the instructions were written on the heel".


I read it over and over again.

On the internet, in an Enfield "FAQ", one of the "Enlightened" plainly wrote that several of these rifles had been made with "cast iron receivers" (!!!) and reported that "he wouldn't shoot one of these "bombs" on a bet".

Another "Henny-Penny gunsmith" claimed after checking several 2A and 2A-1rifles he found that their head space was out of spec. From this examination, this "expert" deduced that the receivers had "stretched". "These rifles are talking (!!!) to us" was his warning.

Bull Dinky!!

I wrote to the author of the Enfield FAQ and asked if he could produce one of these "cast iron receivers". Just ONE!

I never heard back from him.

After lengthy emails with the "gunsmith" he admitted that he had no "before shooting and after shooting" data to determine the growth rate. He had just checked the head space of a couple of Indian made 2A and 2A1 rifles and found that the head space was a bit loose. He also went on to say that the head space of the rifles that he had checked had not increased after his initial measurement.

Head Space, indeed.

After listening to all of the cussin' and moanin' I figured I do a little research and find out what the real story was.

I found that the warning from the NRA was with regard to throat erosion in some .303 No. 4 Enfield rifles, NOT .308 Ishapores. It was noted in the NRA warning that a number of these No. 4 rifles had barrels that had burst due to erosion caused by corrosive ammo. I was unable to find the original article but a reprint of it appears in the NRA publication, "British Enfield Rifles". The article is called "Surplus Enfield Warning". I guess it's a bad title - you actually have to READ the article to get the whole story!

To the best of my knowledge the NRA has NEVER issued a warning about the .308 Ishapore 2A or 2A-1.

 

[longrifleman]

$25.00





My son-in-law is an FFL

 

[No4Mk1]

I think it has been largely agreed that the Ishy 2A's and 2A1's do not have any inherent design flaws that make them dangerous. There are some issues with earlier No1's later converted to 7.62x51, but the 2A and 2A1 were specifically designed with the 7.62x51 cartrige in mind.

Having said all that....

$30....

(and I have a C&R so you can send it right to me... )

 

[hillbilly]

Fifty American Dollars........

 

[No4Mk1]

Oh... we were talking American dollars....

To answer your last question in all seriousness, I think there are a few pro's and con's to each of your ideas and I'll share my $0.02.

a) Give it to the "impovrished young gun nut".... I am all for encouraging the gun-nuttiness of impovrished young people. It is corny and somewhat cliche'd, but can't be said enough that the more young'uns we get into guns the more secure our future will be.

b) Fix it up & sell it.... I'm more of the mind to not fix it if you are wanting to sell it. That way whoever buys it can decide if they want to fix or not, and you probably wouldn't get back your investment in the furniture anyway.... But what do I know, I've never sold any of mine....

c) Spend the money and scout it.... I like that idea a lot, but I am also of the opinion that the Enfield family (and the 2A in particular) might be the ideal platform if you have the urge to roll your own scout.

In other words, I don't see how you could go wrong with any option although unless you are planning to sell to me, I would urge you to stick with either a or c.

 

[CaesarI]

The rifle's perfectly safe, if you've checked the head-space. I very nearly bought one from: http://www.scoutman308.com/

I've since decided that I'm an uncompromising sort, and being a lefty, will find a left-handed action for my rifle. Otherwise, it is quite a fine weapon for scouting. 10 round magazine (12 rounders have reliability issues).

Good guns, cheap guns, common ammo. Couldn't ask for much more.

-Morgan

 

[Jim K]

There have been some concerns raised about use of .308 Winchester commercial ammo in those and other rifles (the FR-7 especially) because the maximum SAAMI working pressure of the .308 exceeds that of the 7.62 NATO. But that is the maximum, and sporting ammo is not loaded to the maximum allowable pressure. That is why it is a maximum, not an average. Even so, the concerns seem to have been valid in the case of the FR-7*, but I have heard of no problems with the Indian rifles.

Other concerns were raised about the durability of the 2A and 2A1 because they were not intended to be military rifles or to be heavily used. They were intended for issue to paramilitary forces and police, where use would be light and infrequent. This issue has not, AFAIK, been resolved, since I have not heard of any "test to destruction" being run on the rifles. At the same time, I not heard of any rifles being damaged in normal use of the type given them by civilian shooters in the U.S.

If anyone does know of definitive tests, or of any extensive testing (5000 rounds plus), I am sure we would all appreciate the information.

*The Spanish FR-7 is a training rifle built on the old Spanish Model 1893 Mauser action and intended for use with lightly-loaded CETME ammunition. The receivers are soft and problems arise even when shooting military 7.62 NATO loads.

Jim

 

[Desert Dog]

$60...

By the way, I have one of those Indian Enfields, and I love it. It is a little rough, but it is reasonably accurate. I have not shot it a whole lot (the original stock was oil soaked and rotten, and keeps breaking at the recoil lug) but I am waiting PATIENTLY (most of the time) for a new stock set from Lawrence Ordinance in Australia.... :banghead:

I have noticed nothing untoward with shooting factory .308.

I AM impressed with the hardness of the receiver, and the finish on that particular part...

My $.000015

 

[AK103K]

I''ll GIVE you $75, if you keep it out of my sight and stop talking about them.

Mine was a MAJOR POS.

 

[armoredman]

Give it to the kid - a buddy just gave me a Mosin so I could finally have a rifle - do the same!

 

[ChopMeat]

Don't Do It Man,

I hope you didn't do it. Unless it was in bad shape.
I got one 10 years ago and I was also a young man and had no fear.
Not to bust your bubble, but I have shot mine at least 500 times and have never had a problem. I've used .308 & Lit. 7.62x51mm just yesterday. I have dropped deer and coyotes with mine.

I bought it from Clark's Custom Guns, and he is one of the best gun dealers/smiths in my area. He also shot it before me, and I trusted him. He does alot of work for local law and such. I do alot of business with them and he has never done me wrong.

Thank God I didn't have the Internet back then, or yawl would have scared the S$#@ out of me and I would have missed out on this great deal. In perfect shape with 3 - 10rd mags. I paid $200 for it - manuf date 1967 model A1. My only problem is I can't find a bayonet for it. I wouldn't recommend it for everyone, since it is heavy.

NO FEAR - I also shoot Century Arms - God has your number and some bad ammo could get you on a Springfield. Hell 1/2 of us reload our own ammo, just don't be stupid and check your weapon reguardless of make and price. If you see something of question - STOP and fix it or take to a pro who can fix it.

 

[nalioth]

There have been some concerns raised about use of .308 Winchester commercial ammo in those and other rifles (the FR-7 especially) because the maximum SAAMI working pressure of the .308 exceeds that of the 7.62 NATO.

<snip>

*The Spanish FR-7 is a training rifle built on the old Spanish Model 1893 Mauser action and intended for use with lightly-loaded CETME ammunition. The receivers are soft and problems arise even when shooting military 7.62 NATO loads.

As noted, the FR7 is based on an 1893 action. The Enfield 2A and 2A1s were designed by the British in the late 50s expressly for the 7.62x51 Nato round. These Enfields aren't rebarrels of some ancient Enfield.

As far as the "special Cetme ammo", there is no such animal. The receivers aren't soft. Myths of Spanish ineptitude persists to this day. . .

1916 Spanish Mauser (rebarreled 1893 Spanish Mausers in .308 for the Guardia Civil) tested:

 

[paintballdude902]

My only problem is I can't find a bayonet for it.

i know right!!!

i love my 65 2a its nearly mint i think im finally gonna just buy a standard num1 mk3 bayonet ive been told the only difference is then length should be 12 for the 2a and 17 for the rest or sumthing like that



op- shoot it or give it to sum one who needs to get into the sport or heck 125 american

 

[Rmac58]

My Ishapore shows signs of a problem, you may be able to see it's been "fixed" in the past, and the last time I fired it, that piece came unglued. I haven't fired it since, and am not sure what to do.

 

[paintballdude902]

rmac did you refinish you stock?

if it was my stock i would epoxy it back into position then put in a few brass pins to make sure it doesnt move again

orelse buy a new fore-end i belive its like 45 bucks

 

[Rmac58]

^^ No, I bought it like that, and I was thinking about refitting that piece.
I'm not sure if I would want to replace the fore-end.

 

[cluttonfred]

Holy zombie threads, Batman! This one was brought back to life from 2004 without so much as a howdy doody.

 

[paintballdude902]

wow owl i posted with out even looking at the dates

thanks chopmeat of bring it back(sarcasm)

rmac i would sand down the stock to get a good even surface then refit that piece or make a new one inm the shpe of kinda like a puzzle piece in order to lock it in

 

[Rmac58]

^^Thanks.