Tipoc: I am a bit hazy on this stuff. Been awhile since I did research on it.
So, let's see. You say I inflate velocities, but, support that their is a bit of a
dispute, saying the 250-260 grain loads might have been going faster(goes in other room and pets .45 Super with Buffalobore 255 grain bullets at 1090 fps).
The .45 Colt was the standard. It worked against horses, and, WITH A SOFT LEAD BULLET,was devastating on humans. Let's be clear that my conflict is created by BULLET TYPE. Everyone wants to discuss this like a LFN is the same as a pure lead cast bullet. THEY ARE NOT, AND, the results are hugely different, penetration wise.
JMB was designing a military firearm, and ammunition.
From the Hague convention of 1899:
"...Declare as follows:
The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.
The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.
It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.
The present Declaration shall be ratified as soon as possible.
The ratification shall be deposited at The Hague..."
The 1911 was used by US forces from 1911, surprise,
, to the current day, and, it was designed for the conditions prescribed in the Hague, non-expanding bullets.
Also keep in mind the M1873 SAA .45 Colt was pressed back into action because the .38 was not stopping the Moros, in the Philippine-American War.
The heavier .45 Colt bullets did do the job on the Moros, however.
The .38 kind of reminds me of the .44 special anemic loads:
150 grains at 777 fps.
So, when I say a 200 grain bullet is adequate at 950 fps-1200 fps, that is for a NON-EXPANDING BULLET.
Tipoc, you point out that the 45 ACP load was developed to mimic the .45 Colt load. However, the key point here is the Hague convention was being inacted, and, the soft lead bullets that had made the .45 Colts reputation where now being replaced by non-expanding bullets, I think a very big point.
With the lighter bullets, 200 grains, and higher velocity, you still get excellent penetration, with a flat point bullet, which I believe was JMB's original design. I trust that JMB knew what he was doing, and, that the 200 grain flat point would do damage similar to the .45 Colt, if it was loaded with a non-expanding bullet.
I maintain that to get adequate penetration with a large caliber, 240 grain bullets are the place to start. Taffin has had excellent luck with even 225 grain bullets, but at around 1100 fps, with the .44 special. If I was going to use an EXPANDING BULLET for the .44 special, I would follow his lead, and use 240 grain or heavier hollow points for defense, and, see no reason why not 1050-1100 fps, using 4227.
There seems to be a considerable increase in wound channel size when going from 770 fps, the anemic 246 grain soft lead .44 special load, and moving up to a 240 grain expanding bullet, moving 1100 fps. I've always thought I would still get the same penetration with a 200 grain flat point, moving faster say 950-1100 fps, as I did with the 230 grain ball at 850 fps. I also think the wound channel would be considerably larger with the lighter bullet, moving faster.
Here is a rather nice shot by Cottonstalk, on a deer with a .45 Colt WFN at 1150 fps.
Now, I see no reason you can't get that kind of wound channel with a 200 grain bullet, non-expanding, out of the 45 ACP. With Longshot, you can move
a 200 grain bullet at 1013 fps, at 17K. I think JMB had shot enough deer to figure out that he would get an effect like the above, using that weight bullet. The fallacy is that when you make the bullet expanding, you give up your speed through the target, and, your wound channel, while bigger in the front, does not maintain it's size through the target.
So, in short:
.44 Special, for me, would be best with non-expanding 185-200 grain or heavier bullets, moving in the 1000-1100 fps range. However, why not use a 240 grain non-expanding bullet? 4227 gives you nearly the same velocity with a 240 grain bullet as the lighter ones?
If you are going to load expanding bullets, they better be heavy. 240 grains is a good place to start. THIS is my complaint about the .44 Special as a self-defense weapon: The ammo makers just don't care, or just don't get it. The factory .44 special offerings are too light for an expanding bullet. Besides, handloading those big, 240 grain HP's gives me the warm and fuzzies. You KNOW that bullet is going to do the trick.
"Quote:
At a combat distance of 15 yards or less, this caliber will stop the bad guy in his tracks.
In your dreams. There is NO handgun round which will "stop the bad guy in his tracks" unless it's a lucky shot that hits the CNS.
No handgun round for defense is "just awesome". Most of them are good, but nothing is a sure stop. You have been reading too much hype"
This used to be true, but isn't anymore.
I have a number of calibers, that, when loaded correctly, will hit like a .375 H&H rifle, something I also have. Below is commentary by a handgun hunting expert, jwp475, who has taken LOTS of game with large bore handguns.
I had the Speer 275 grain HP's loaded for defense loads. They expand to the size of a 2 bore rifle,
and, at 1560 fps, would have an EXCELLENT chance of
being the most effective handgun stopping round ever made. They have made 4" across holes on entry in deer. Destroys a lot of meat, an excellent one shot stop defense round.
"
.500 JRH:
Factory 950 fps, 440 grain LFN cast bullet
the other factory load:
425 grains at 1350 fps?
MikeG on Shooters Forum has shot that load through the chest cavity of about an 850 pouund Buffalo and had an exit with the 440 at 950 FPS. I have shot the 425 grainer completely through both shoulders of an Asian Buffalo and broke the main support bone with an exit. Jack has shot the 440 grainer bullet at 1380 FPS ened to end with an exit of a Buffalo of about 800 pounds
.475 Linebaugh
275 Grain Speer Hollow point, at 1450-1560 fps
325 grain Speer Flat points at 1450 fps
I have not tested either of those bullets, with the light wieghts and the probability of excessive expansion I am skeptical of their usefulness in a 475 Linebaugh. One truly does not need nor want a lot of expansion at the expense of penetration with a true big bore revolver
.500 Linebaugh
350 grain LFN at 1350 fps
435 grain LFN at 1100 fps
No experience with a 350 grainer, but if the 435 is a true LBT design then it will work very well
.500 Linebaugh Maximum
525 grains LFN over 29 grains of 296: chrono said 1350 fps,
but, it might have been off?
The 525 grain WLFN (by Cast Performance) bullet out of the 500 Linebaugh is the hammer of Thor on game of all sizes in my experience. Truly a heavy hitter"
As to the effect of the 375 H&H, with expanding bullets, on humans. I could only find one shooting. This was an accidental discharge, while hunting, from behind. The bullet hit in the shoulder area, and
severed the vein, artery, bones, pretty much everything, and pretty much took the poor man's arm off. He bleed to death before they could get him to a hospital.
So, let's see. You say I inflate velocities, but, support that their is a bit of a
dispute, saying the 250-260 grain loads might have been going faster(goes in other room and pets .45 Super with Buffalobore 255 grain bullets at 1090 fps).
The .45 Colt was the standard. It worked against horses, and, WITH A SOFT LEAD BULLET,was devastating on humans. Let's be clear that my conflict is created by BULLET TYPE. Everyone wants to discuss this like a LFN is the same as a pure lead cast bullet. THEY ARE NOT, AND, the results are hugely different, penetration wise.
JMB was designing a military firearm, and ammunition.
From the Hague convention of 1899:
"...Declare as follows:
The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.
The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.
It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.
The present Declaration shall be ratified as soon as possible.
The ratification shall be deposited at The Hague..."
The 1911 was used by US forces from 1911, surprise,
, to the current day, and, it was designed for the conditions prescribed in the Hague, non-expanding bullets. Also keep in mind the M1873 SAA .45 Colt was pressed back into action because the .38 was not stopping the Moros, in the Philippine-American War.
The heavier .45 Colt bullets did do the job on the Moros, however.
The .38 kind of reminds me of the .44 special anemic loads:
150 grains at 777 fps.
So, when I say a 200 grain bullet is adequate at 950 fps-1200 fps, that is for a NON-EXPANDING BULLET.
Tipoc, you point out that the 45 ACP load was developed to mimic the .45 Colt load. However, the key point here is the Hague convention was being inacted, and, the soft lead bullets that had made the .45 Colts reputation where now being replaced by non-expanding bullets, I think a very big point.
With the lighter bullets, 200 grains, and higher velocity, you still get excellent penetration, with a flat point bullet, which I believe was JMB's original design. I trust that JMB knew what he was doing, and, that the 200 grain flat point would do damage similar to the .45 Colt, if it was loaded with a non-expanding bullet.
I maintain that to get adequate penetration with a large caliber, 240 grain bullets are the place to start. Taffin has had excellent luck with even 225 grain bullets, but at around 1100 fps, with the .44 special. If I was going to use an EXPANDING BULLET for the .44 special, I would follow his lead, and use 240 grain or heavier hollow points for defense, and, see no reason why not 1050-1100 fps, using 4227.
There seems to be a considerable increase in wound channel size when going from 770 fps, the anemic 246 grain soft lead .44 special load, and moving up to a 240 grain expanding bullet, moving 1100 fps. I've always thought I would still get the same penetration with a 200 grain flat point, moving faster say 950-1100 fps, as I did with the 230 grain ball at 850 fps. I also think the wound channel would be considerably larger with the lighter bullet, moving faster.
Here is a rather nice shot by Cottonstalk, on a deer with a .45 Colt WFN at 1150 fps.
Now, I see no reason you can't get that kind of wound channel with a 200 grain bullet, non-expanding, out of the 45 ACP. With Longshot, you can move
a 200 grain bullet at 1013 fps, at 17K. I think JMB had shot enough deer to figure out that he would get an effect like the above, using that weight bullet. The fallacy is that when you make the bullet expanding, you give up your speed through the target, and, your wound channel, while bigger in the front, does not maintain it's size through the target.
So, in short:
.44 Special, for me, would be best with non-expanding 185-200 grain or heavier bullets, moving in the 1000-1100 fps range. However, why not use a 240 grain non-expanding bullet? 4227 gives you nearly the same velocity with a 240 grain bullet as the lighter ones?
If you are going to load expanding bullets, they better be heavy. 240 grains is a good place to start. THIS is my complaint about the .44 Special as a self-defense weapon: The ammo makers just don't care, or just don't get it. The factory .44 special offerings are too light for an expanding bullet. Besides, handloading those big, 240 grain HP's gives me the warm and fuzzies.
You KNOW that bullet is going to do the trick."Quote:
At a combat distance of 15 yards or less, this caliber will stop the bad guy in his tracks.
In your dreams. There is NO handgun round which will "stop the bad guy in his tracks" unless it's a lucky shot that hits the CNS.
No handgun round for defense is "just awesome". Most of them are good, but nothing is a sure stop. You have been reading too much hype"
This used to be true, but isn't anymore.
I have a number of calibers, that, when loaded correctly, will hit like a .375 H&H rifle, something I also have. Below is commentary by a handgun hunting expert, jwp475, who has taken LOTS of game with large bore handguns.
I had the Speer 275 grain HP's loaded for defense loads. They expand to the size of a 2 bore rifle,
and, at 1560 fps, would have an EXCELLENT chance of
being the most effective handgun stopping round ever made. They have made 4" across holes on entry in deer. Destroys a lot of meat, an excellent one shot stop defense round.
"
.500 JRH:
Factory 950 fps, 440 grain LFN cast bullet
the other factory load:
425 grains at 1350 fps?
MikeG on Shooters Forum has shot that load through the chest cavity of about an 850 pouund Buffalo and had an exit with the 440 at 950 FPS. I have shot the 425 grainer completely through both shoulders of an Asian Buffalo and broke the main support bone with an exit. Jack has shot the 440 grainer bullet at 1380 FPS ened to end with an exit of a Buffalo of about 800 pounds
.475 Linebaugh
275 Grain Speer Hollow point, at 1450-1560 fps
325 grain Speer Flat points at 1450 fps
I have not tested either of those bullets, with the light wieghts and the probability of excessive expansion I am skeptical of their usefulness in a 475 Linebaugh. One truly does not need nor want a lot of expansion at the expense of penetration with a true big bore revolver
.500 Linebaugh
350 grain LFN at 1350 fps
435 grain LFN at 1100 fps
No experience with a 350 grainer, but if the 435 is a true LBT design then it will work very well
.500 Linebaugh Maximum
525 grains LFN over 29 grains of 296: chrono said 1350 fps,
but, it might have been off?
The 525 grain WLFN (by Cast Performance) bullet out of the 500 Linebaugh is the hammer of Thor on game of all sizes in my experience. Truly a heavy hitter"
As to the effect of the 375 H&H, with expanding bullets, on humans. I could only find one shooting. This was an accidental discharge, while hunting, from behind. The bullet hit in the shoulder area, and
severed the vein, artery, bones, pretty much everything, and pretty much took the poor man's arm off. He bleed to death before they could get him to a hospital.
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