Isosceles vs Weaver, need advice...

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Hello all,

I'm just getting back into handgun shooting and getting into handgun shooting in a serious way and I'm trying to improve my results. I've been playing with both the Isosceles and the Weaver and I'd like anyone's thoughts on the subject.

My goal with a handgun is purely self defence. I'm not planning on competing. I'm comfortable out to 10 yards but I'm not where I want to be.

Any thoughts?
Brent...
:scrutiny:
 
For combat shooting, I teach the Isosceles position. The primary reason is that it (1) enables you to get well behind cover on either side, keeping your weapon in the strong hand, and (2) enables you to quickly swivel from the waist in either direction to meet additional threats.

Try this from the barricade position at the range: Stand with your weapon pointed straight ahead, directly behind the barricade, with the muzzle about 8" to a foot behind it, and about 18" from the side. Now lean from the waist until your weapon just clears the strong side of the barricade, with your sights at about the 1:30 position. Fire a couple of rounds. Notice how much of you is behind cover. Now try the same thing from the weak hand side, keeping the weapon in the strong hand. Again, notice how much of you is behind cover.

IMHO, the Weaver and Modified Weaver stances leave you too exposed if you're forced to use weak-side cover, or else force you to shoot weak-handed, which you shouldn't do unless your strong hand is incapacitated or otherwise doing something vitally important.
 
Get some good instruction to make sure that you are performing both techniques correctly before you decide which works for you. At first, I was self-taught out of books and magazines and couldn't shoot the Weaver worth a darn. It wasn't until I got some formal training that I realized I was not executing the technique properly, especially the push-pull tension.

When I instruct I make sure my students can correctly perform both positions, along with the modified Weaver/Chapman, before they decide what works best for them.

I lean towards Iso or Chapman myself, but recognize that the Weaver works best for some people so I made sure I can perform and instruct the position correctly.
 
You're right trebor, I learned both ways and tried them in IPSC matches and found I was better and faster with isoceles. Now with some damage to my elbow I'm about half way between! When I shoot my 44mag ( not for combat) I always bend my elbow since the arm then acts as a shock absorber, that way the gun doesn't move in my hand. The front and back straps of my autos are all checkered for a firmer ( non moving ) grip.
 
I've found that people who start off as rifle or shotgun shooters tend to do better with a Weaver stance. I guess it just mimics the position and stance they are already used to.
People who start off without a rifle background tend to do better with the isosceles.

Keith
 
I use to go back & forth w/ limited results. Then I dedicated some time to each to see which worked better for me. Both will work well if you commit yourself to proper technique. Bottom line for me tho is that the isosceles stance was consistently easier to employee & get better results from.
 
Like El Tejon says, learn both, use both. Each has it's tactical application and the more in your tactical tool bag, the more wabbits you can pull out of your hat.
 
Learn them all as you will use them all in fighting. ...El Tejon.
Click to expand...
And to carry Gary's comment a bit further.

Learn to shoot well and fast (in that order) from every stance, position and grip imaginable; rules of your range and safety permitting.

You can neither schedule nor script your next encounter.

Some turkey thinks he has you trapped under a car...will you and your gun be able to funtion with the gun sideways ?


Sam
 
Having been a die hard isosceles then having started shooting weaver, I can say it realy does not matter. Like Clint Smith said if you have a perfect stance in a gun fight your doing something wrong. A good firing grip and trigger control is far more important than the stance. Pick one that feels the most comfortable for you then train at a good school with it. As far as shooting behind cover the weaver is better on your strong side and the isosceles is equally bad on both sides. I like it but the isosceles stance shines more when your shooting out in the open. If your slicing the pie your shoulder comes around before then gun unless you do some stange contortions. ALthough the weaver is the same when going around a corner with your weak side.
Pat
 
Learn both, practice both ways, then take defensive classes.

You will soon come to a stance that is right for you, not the teacher.

Many people use some sort of modified stance.

You will eventually realize that most defensive shooting will be done while on the move anyways. Why stand still and be an easy target?
 
Having gone through several thousand rounds of formal instruction using both styles I admit a preference for iso... Wea... neither. Yea, neither.

I kind of like that.

Each has a place.
 
Couple things on Weaver - I think it has advantages in specific situations.

1) Big recoil - the guys shooting 44Mag notice a marked increase in control with a Weaver or variant hold. The guys shooting "crazy handcannon stuff" (454s, 500Linebaughs, etc) shoot from a Weaveroid hold exclusively, at least based on the pictures I've seen. See also Linebaugh's website or similar.

2) In my case, as a cross-dominant (right handed, left eyed), from a Weaver-type hold I can do an interesting "cheek weld" against my right bicep, lining my left eye behind the sights with the gun vertical. If speed is favored over accuracy, I "uncoil" some, bringing my head upright but leaning the gun leftwards. By shifting between these two slight variations of the same basic hold, I get most of what I need. To shoot around the left edge of a barrier, I go to a one-handed hold with the gun in the strong hand, using my left eye to peek around over the sights. Optimal? No. For starters, I'm stepping from a left-foot forward stance to an extreme right-foot-forward. But I can do that better than I can shoot with my left hand.
 
I try to shoot both styles, but I default to weaver hold almost exclusively. It feels more natural to me, and also more similar to a rifle style hold. And the .41 Mag Desert Eagle prefers a Weaver hold for sure functioning also. (I tried with both holds and the semi light load, trust me).
 
i used to fire exclusively from the weaver stance, but i found out that i shoot MUCH better in the isosceles. but then again, you have to know how to shoot a pistol left handed, right handed, isosceles and weaver if you ever want to survive an armed encounter.
 
learn 'em all.
Big bore revolver shooters do use weaver stuff the most.
Because revolvers were my first love, I have weaver-itis.
Shooting in a steel plate match with a 9mm, I'd say isosceles.
Shooting a 10mm glock or magnum revolver, weaver.
 
if the goal is purely self defense, i would abandon all thought of stance, position, whatever, and get out and get dirty. envision yourself leaping for cover and positioning self to fullest advantage behind said cover. cover may be a big fat dumpster, a skinny fence post, or none at all. at one time, falling on one's back and shooting over the feet/legs was recommended when that was the only cover available. try this and you will find you can shoot quite well from your back. sure beats standing up in the middle of the street like old western movies. dry fire or be very careful with this.

one must train with the thought that BG's come with friends and from different directions. they will be close and fast. no time for anything fancy.
grab your gun and get it on. as many of the above have suggested, practice accordingly.
 
If you ever get to shoot with some of the best of the best, you will notice that they shoot in a style that is particular to them alone. For most IDPA/IPSC shooters it tends to look more like an Iso, but it really doesn't matter.

Find what works for you. There is no single correct answer. Use whatever enables you to get more hits, fast.
 
OK you guys, THR is partially here to educate the uneducated. Please explain briefly and in kindergarten language, what is a Weaver and is Isosceles related in some way to a tri-angle?
A lot of us out here can't afford formal classroom training or have never attended a police academy so we, some of us, don't know what a Weaver or Isoceles stance is.
My old moonshiner Pappy taught me to shoot standing sideways (slimmer profile) to the target with strong side hand extended. His theory was a simple one, if your side is to the target there is less chance for a clean heart shot or other vital organ hit. The round had more bone and fat to penetrate. If you took one in the head, ***, your fight was over anyhow. His alternative position was flat on your belly in a Palmetto thicket using both hands, shoot till it goes click then get up and run like hell.
Now what position is that? Isosceles, Weaver or Florida Swamp?---Jed
 
At one of my Saturday hose-fests I use Weaver more as it seems to help me clamp down on the pistol harder. At gun skul, IDPA, sims, whatever, I seem to use Weaver when shooting around cover on the right side and something like Iso when shooting around cover on the left side....

Come to think of it I don't even think I'm in a stance per se, I'm usually crouched or something! :p
 
Kahr,

Basically, the Isosceles is simply facing the target with both arms extended out (elbows straight) to meet at the gun. The arms form a triangle; hence "isosceles". The feet are spread to give you good balance.

The Weaver is standing in a riflemans position. A right handed shooter has his left foot forward so he is facing the target in a 3/4 profile. The handgun is held like a rifle, though with both hands coming together on the grip - if it had a stock it would extend back into the right shoulder.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each stance. The isosceles allows you to cover a larger arc without changing your stance. The Weaver is better for weapons retention since the gun is held closer to the body, etc.

I've taught a lot of people to shoot handguns, and in every case those who had previous experience with rifles adapted very easily to the Weaver stance and learned to shoot handguns very quickly. Those with no gun experience nearly always prefer the isosceles and found the Weaver awkward.

They both work.

Keith
 
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