"It’s the hands that kill you.”

[Owen Sparks]

“Watch the hands, It’s the hands that kill you.”

This seems to be the current trendy saying in law enforcement and among people who carry a handgun.
I heard it umpteen times at the advanced CCW course recently and have seen it repeated on this forum.
While this is generally true, the hands are not the only thing to watch when you are approached by a suspicious stranger.

An attackers feet can also be used to strike and disable you long enough for him to get his hands on a weapon. It doesn’t take a Karate expert to kick you in the crotch. Anyone who has played a little soccer or messed with a hacky sack when they were a kid has more than enough skill to land a solid kick right where it counts. Worst of all it can be thrown from beyond hands reach where most people would feel comfortable engaging a stranger in conversation.

I recently saw a revealing “sucker kick” defense demonstration taught as part of a self-defense class. One set-up the instructor taught was to hold
the hands up palm out and say: “Look at my hands.” When the ‘victim’ was distracted looking at the hands he kicked him right in the cup. In another
set-up the instructor playing the bad guy held his hands up in the same ’fence’ fashion but slowly extended one out to the side and wiggled his fingers. The instant the cup wearing victim shifted his eyes to glance at the movement he got kicked again. This went on for several variations and the instructor was able to land several kicks in a row on a man who knew that they were coming.

The point was that the only practical defense to the sucker kick is to maintain proper distance which is a good four or five feet away from the person you are talking to. If you let him get too close, while you are busy watching his hands and he moves first, you don't have much of a chance. You will never see it coming.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I remember hearing this 30+ years ago during my LE Academy. The only reason we look for hands is to check for weapons in them

You have to understand that it is meant as a simple and easy to remember awareness riser for cadets who might have no prior exposure to dangerous encounters. I should add that they also told us to stay 3 feet away (arm's reach) and to stand in a bladed position with our gun side away from the other person.

Anyone who has been exposed to street culture understands the folly of taking any of these as hard and fast rules.

In your example, the easiest awareness technique to follow isn't so much distance...because you often can't maintain it in normal life...but 1) soft eyes to see the whole body; 2) watching the shoulders (you can't kick without dropping the shoulders); and 3) having a pre-planned reactive defense.

A more experienced person can tell the beginning of an attack by watching the eyes of the other person. The eyes always precede action, as does shifting weight between the feet...but that is a much more advanced technique

 

[Cosmoline]

Well I only have one pair of eyes. And trying to maintain a big enough distance from everyone to avoid a sucker kick is not easy at all.

 

[Owen Sparks]

In the demo the Karate instructor used distraction to close the distance and get the 'victim's' attention focused elsewhere. Generally he used the old magician trick of misdirection. Anytime a magician says something like “Watch close, make sure my hand is empty.” what he is really doing is making sure that you are not watching what he is doing with the other hand. Humans are easy to distract. At one point during the demo the instructor stopped speaking right in the middle of a sentence and looked at the door with his eyes wide. He said “Mam, you can’t dress like that in here!” when the volunteer turned his head to see the inappropriately dressed woman, POP right in the cup again.

 

[MedWheeler]

A more experienced person can tell the beginning of an attack by watching the eyes of the other person. The eyes always precede action, as does shifting weight between the feet...but that is a much more advanced technique

Yes, the "hands are the key" standard was, for the longest time, the running school of thought, drilled deep into my head as well when I was in law enforcement. But, the above is the new key standard.. If he's looking at you like he's gonna attack you, something's up.

 

[Deaf Smith]

only practical defense to the sucker kick is to maintain proper distance which is a good four or five feet away from the person you are talking to.

This is what you should do ANYWAY when you meet an unknown contact, especially in remote areas or late at night.

Deaf

 

[poolingmyignorance]

Whatchign the eyes for a precursor to attack is horsehockey. Our eyes tend to shift from point to point of focus almost instantly. Even during conversation the move slighty across the people we're conversating with. They can be indication of their attention to something else like staring at your man boobs, (just fooling) or wallet, or watch. Your not going to be able to tell somebody is focused on targeting your chin, nose or mouth. Because we expect people to look us in the eye when we talk. Unless that person is just staring manicly as they do so...It's not a good indicator at all. Not trying to start a flame war with you here, I've been in martials a good while and never seen any reliable indicator of the eyes, and I've never taught my students, nor was I ever taught that by my coaches.
Make sure the hands are empty, use general focus to observer the shoulders and the hips. It's not impossible to kick without moving the hips, but takes alot of practice to disguise it. It is very difficulty to kick without moving the shoulders, unfortunately that is also used as a misdirection to make you believe a hand attack is comming.
Always be warry of people talking with their hands a lot, it's a common technique used to distract from real intent. Also a moving hand moves smoother to another direction quicker than a stationary one. This is why boxers and fighters hands are always floating, and not rigid when in stance.
Be extra aware of any gestures aboveor even with shoulder, such as touching the hair or the face. These are brining their hands above yours, shortening the distance to your face, while discretely cocking back to stricke. Or as the OP suggested potenially distracting from a kick. And yea with a little practice a front snap kick can be very very fast.. and combined with a pair of boots, steel toe (which turn even seasoned thai practioners shins into targets) or otherwise absolutely devistating. Although I'm certain that statisticly speaking it really is the hands that kill. Simply because thats how we hold weapons.

 

[Cosmoline]

Also there are enormous variations between people in how they use their eyes. Some rarely make eye contact, others are staring you down all the time. It means nothing from a personal defense point of view. I've got two eyes, he's got two hands. So I watch them. Beyond that, if he decides trying to kick me is a good idea, good luck with that. I can kick back a lot harder than he can. My legs are like a moose's from all the bike riding around here.

 

[Hardtarget]

I love this misdirection stuff. Let me tell you about this event.

My friend, Mr. Russel, owned a small corner store. When he needed a day off he had a lady part timer to come in to handle things for a day. So, a young guy walks in, points a gun! She says"I've been robbed befor. Tell me what to do" As ordered she opened the cash drawer...got a sack...then she "popped" her eyes open wider and looked at the door(over his shoulder). He turned to look...she grabbed her pistol from her purse(right beside the cash drawer). He looked back at her just in time to see the muzzle flash! Police found him 200 yds away under some cardboard...bleeding bad.

This is how she told me about it. She was cool, LUCKY, and more calm than I expected. I was surprised it worked for her.

Mark

 

[2zulu1]

I remember hearing this 30+ years ago during my LE Academy. The only reason we look for hands is to check for weapons in them

You have to understand that it is meant as a simple and easy to remember awareness riser for cadets who might have no prior exposure to dangerous encounters. I should add that they also told us to stay 3 feet away (arm's reach) and to stand in a bladed position with our gun side away from the other person.

Anyone who has been exposed to street culture understands the folly of taking any of these as hard and fast rules.

In your example, the easiest awareness technique to follow isn't so much distance...because you often can't maintain it in normal life...but 1) soft eyes to see the whole body; 2) watching the shoulders (you can't kick without dropping the shoulders); and 3) having a pre-planned reactive defense.

A more experienced person can tell the beginning of an attack by watching the eyes of the other person. The eyes always precede action, as does shifting weight between the feet...but that is a much more advanced technique

I agree, spend enough time on the street and one is effectively able to use peripheral vision on the "whole" person. In the end, experiential knowledge is paramount.

 

[Owen Sparks]

I mainly watch the center of the chest right where you would aim a pistol. The hand is quicker than the eye, the shoulders and hips are not and if you watch the ‘down zero’ region of the chest you can easily see punches and kicks coming if you know what to look for. I have been accused of being psychic by some of the people that I spar with because they claim that I know where they are going to punch or kick before they throw it. The truth is that they tell me by moving their shoulder and hips in a way that “telegraphs” their intention. The eyes might tell you when he is going to punch but the shoulders will tell you where.

 

[Surf]

The point is not to continuously watch the hands and ignore anything else. In your last post you are pretty much talking unarmed or more correct open handed combatives at this point. Sure they can go for a weapon but the hands at this point are devoid of an external weapon and we need to be taking in the bigger picture. When they say look for the hands or the hands can kill, is that upon first contact, get the big, or whole picture and collapse to the hands to ensure that there is no weapon or attempt to conceal one in the hands. This is what gets many Officers killed. They often then teach to scan the waistline for possible outlines or buldges of weapons. If everything checks out at that point you don't just solely focus on the hands, you scan back out to get the big picture.

As mentioned above this is to train someone new to this type of thing to do something deliberate or systematic so they do not forget to do so. Force on Force over years and years of training shows this to be an effective methodology to progress a persons learning until it becomes instinctual and done at the subconscious level. The speeds that it happens increases with practice and exposure to scenario based training. Just like any boxer, fighter, whatever. Of course there are, or should be other defensive tactics in a quality or inclusive course of instruction, such as looking for pre attack ques, or open handed tactics, but collapsing to the hands is just but one of many things. Also taught is that if you lose sight of someones hands ie if they move behind an object, or are lying on the ground face down on top of their hands, you want to acquire the hands quickly as this has been shown as the opportunity for a person to acquire a weapon and attack Officers. Seems like you are taking it as a too literal, or an absolute definition that you must always watch the hands. It is but only one small piece of the pie. Albeit a very important one, in the correct context.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Shoulder movement will 'telegraph' hand movement no matter if the person is throwing a punch or reaching for a concealed weapon. The problem with trying to watch the hands alone is that there are two of them and if the subjecy can get them far enough apart he can sucker you into looking at the wrong one.

Next time you are talking with someone face to face try this:

Slowly extend your left hand away from your body and wiggle your fingers. Watch his eyes. Humans will instingtivly glance toward movement. If you wanted to sucker punch this person or draw a pistol this instant of distraction when his eyes shifted would be the perfect time.

 

[Surf]

Again I think your missing the point. The point is to teach the student to make a conscious initial observation(s) of the hands and what may or may not be in the hands. Also to re-observe if they lose sight of the person or the hands in general. This is nothing to do with open handed combatives, or pre attack ques or feigns. Many new persons to any type of combatives will ignore the item that was in the hand that actually got them hurt or killed. You are on a different tangent then the intent of the observation of the hands. Not saying that what you are talking about is incorrect, it is a different context to the big picture.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I've been in martials a good while and never seen any reliable indicator of the eyes, and I've never taught my students, nor was I ever taught that by my coaches.

I regret that this part of your training has been lacking...perhaps it is the difference between sparring and a real street encounter...I had thought that this knowledge was pretty universal

The most recent article I read on the subject was Massad Ayoob's latest book Combat Shooting in the section on Mindset...starting on page 17

 

[Walkalong]

Watch both hands. Some will try to draw your eye/s away with one hand and strike with the other.

And of course some folks use their feet too, which adds to the problem.

 

[Mainsail]

This reminds me of the video demo where a guy shoves a gun in another guy's face, and is smartly disarmed. It all looks so good until you realize no self respecting mugger is giong to shove the gun in your face, so the whole thing is an exercise in stupid.

Same sort of thing here. You can watch his hands and merely stand one step back beyond his kicking distance. I've seen the cops do this very thing.

 

[poolingmyignorance]

I regret that this part of your training has been lacking...perhaps it is the difference between sparring and a real street encounter...I had thought that this knowledge was pretty universal

The most recent article I read on the subject was Massad Ayoob's latest book Combat Shooting in the section on Mindset...starting on page 17

I would LOVE to see a working example of somebody watching just the eyes and reliably predict an attack.
Maybe my trainign is lacking, but so is my nose in number of times it's been busted. YMMV. But I stick with whats soild and repeatable against a full powered full speed resisting opponet. Not what theoreticlly should work, after practiced with compliant partners. That does everybody involved a great diservice, beyond initial demo and practice. If you can't pull if off/practice it against full resistance, toss it out.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Watching the eyes can tell you when someone is going to attack but the eyes alone will not tell you what part of his body he is going to strike with or which direction the attack will come from.

If you watch the center of the chest you can at least tell which arm or leg he is using.

I suppose that if you were far enough apart that the only way he could attack was by drawing a pistol, watching the eyes would be sufficient. When the opponent is close enough to punch or kick watching the eyes does not work as well because there are too many variables.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I would LOVE to see a working example of somebody watching just the eyes and reliably predict an attack.

If you'll go back and read post #2, you'll see that this isn't what I've posted

As Owen Sparks points out, it does change as the distance between you changes.

While I have proven the validity to myself, I doubt anything I can post would change your mind. However, I've found that Ayoob researches his articles very well and I'd highly recommend reading the article I've cited above

 

[Batty67]

On a side but related note, I once watched this amazing TV show on how the human mind works and how easy, stupidly I felt, it is to be distracted and miss some amazingly obvious things. Like a 6' tall bunny slowly walk through a crowd of dancers going into and out of two circles of light on the stage. The audience was instructed to count how many times a dancer stepped in and out of the light, and I counted so carefully I completely missed the man in the bunny suit. Felt foolish, and that was just one example. There were many just as good or better...

I would really like to see that particular show again and share it with friends...and THR members for that matter.

 

[Owen Sparks]

I used to do a little amiture magic for my own personal entertainment. Mostly coin tricks and slight of hand. It is really easy to get people so focused on one hand that they miss what the other hand, or in this case the foot is doing. A sucker punch or kick is a great way to buy a little time to draw a weapon. Someone who knows what they are doing can easily distract you and if you get too focused on the hands the feet become like the man in the bunny suit and you are totaly oblivious to being kicked right in the crotch. If this happens you can be shot at the bad guys lesiure.

 

[JShirley]

A really experienced fighter knows not to look in his (potential) opponent's eyes.

A "soft gaze" that allows you to see all of the threat should be used. It should be centered on their eyebrow ridge.

John

 

[blarby]

He said “Mam, you can’t dress like that in here!”

An attractive woman has cost more than a few men their wallets, and only about half of them willingly.

Body language study is considerably more art than science, but it is interesting to see explanations rationalized and explained once and a while.

A defensive bubble is nice- but as mentioned is hard to maintain in many circumstances.

This went on for several variations and the instructor was able to land several kicks in a row on a man who knew that they were coming.

No wonder he used him as the test. This would only work on most semi-aware people once.

I do appreciate a reminder, often unstated, that attack and harm come from very direction imaginable- and some you can't.

Training everything, everywhere, whenever possible.

Also as stated, when you have to "train" "new" people, you train them what works the most, the most often- as your time with them is often quite limited. Unfortunately, LE does not have the unlimited dollars for continual close-contact encounter training that it should. "Cursory is best" is usually the tag line, and individual instruction beyond whats offered at the academy (briefly) and at "clinics" in larger jurisdictions is usually at the officers' own expense.

When you look at the starting (and often, middle and ending) salary in most jurisdictions with this in mind, you realize why not all beat cops are ninja-warriors or special-forces operators in terms of training.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Here is something related:

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2012/11/15/when-you-dont-see-whats-visible/

Apparently a cop was so focused on the person he was he was chasing that he ran right past another crime in progress without noticing. An experiment was conducted to prove that it could happen.