Italian Colt's replicas with "Close but No Ceegar" Colt marks

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If I remember correctly there was a situation going on between Colt and Lou(?) Imperato (His son is now building the Henry Lever action rifle) when Colt wanted to stop production of their 2nd Generation ‘F’ series revolvers. I think there were a lot of people, ASM being one of them, supplying parts who got stuck with them after they terminated production but they were already stamped with the Colt markings. And I believe this gave rise to the 3rd generation Colts or the Signature Series. I also believe if I remember correctly the Colt sued ASM for selling them.
 
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Yes, there are but Colt didn't want them sold and I believe, going on memory here which ain't good, sued to stop their sale.
What ever happened between Colt and Val Forgett who started this whole thing in the first place? Why did they switch to Lou Imperato over Val Forgett?
 
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That is a story that needs to be figured out. In corresponding with Val III, who was a youngster at the time, he didn't recall the entire history behind this, but believes his dad had approached Colt to produce the 2nd gen Colts and had shown them several Colt marked samples. Somewhere along the way, Imperato got into the picture providing rough castings from Uberti to Colt for the 2nd gens, cutting Val Jr. out if the deal, which eventually led to the 3rd gens.
 
This is what I was able to dig up.
“It is unfortunate how misunderstood Colt’s Blackpowder Series is. Colt was finally convinced by Val Forgett of Navy Arms to reintroduce Colt Blackpowders in 1970. Obviously since Colt had no machinery or tooling to produce black powder revolvers, but Uberti was in current production of Colt Blackpowder Replicas for Navy Arms, the relationship was established. The difference though is that Uberti made rough castings according to Colt’s specs and sent them as parts sets. Colt received the parts sets, inspected them for correct specs, then hand fitted, filed, polished, case color hardened & finished all “C” Series revolvers.
In late 1973, Colt made arrangements to use a new supplier of these parts sets, Lou Imperato, who was Colts largest American distributor. Imperato supplied parts for the 3rd Model Dragoon in 1974, but due to Colt’s labor disputes was not able to produce Dragoons until 1975. The “C” Series came to an end in 1976.”

I had a “C” series Colt (a 51' Navy) but, if I remember, it came in a tan like box, not a black box that I purchased in 1977.
Does Alder address this in his book?
 
"I have a couple of older Armi San Marco Walkers with such "close" Colt barrel and cylinder marks. Was this the only model ASM made with such marks or did ASM or other Italian makers make any 1851s, 1860s, or Dragoons with such marks?"


I have three ASM 1860's with full colt barrel markings. All were imported by Richardson Arms, and the fonts and markings are identical to second generation Colt production. It's pretty obvious that they came from the same place. The quality of the finished revolvers seems to be identical to the Colt second generation stuff too. These are sleepers.

I'd love to find a Walker so marked.


Willie

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^^

Call Texas Jacks, as I sent back a few of the Cimmaron "Cotl" and "New Jork" marked ones as unsatisfactory (to me). They might still have them.


Willie

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I bought a used CVA Wells Fargo model that has the CVA address on top of the barrel and ASM Black Powder warning on the bottom. The cylinder shows evidence of the "Colts" name having been erased. I can't decipher the date code, maybe someone can help here. I picked up a spare cylinder from Gunbrokers that has the "Colts" name still showing.

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A local guy got in a batch of Navy revolvers in Colt boxes and with colt literature. they were unfinished and had no markings of any kind on them. they were also not of the best quality having haphazard barrel/cylinder alignment and brittle parts. The discussion about colt's set-to with ASM does go a long way toward a possible explaination. Most internet experts deny that these revolvers could possibley exist since there are no Italian Proof marks on them. Nevertheless....

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The ASMs from a couple of decades ago had extremely nice external fit and finish with what appears to be real bone /charcoal case hardening. Frequently though, they were indifferent shooters. This one had chamber mouths far smaller than the bore and was timed very poorly. The owner did considerable work on it-fixing the chambers and fitting ubertil (I think) lockwork. When he got finished, it was a good shooter.
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The one way to 'stick' a sub-Contractor like ASM or, in other words, stop production so abruptly that a sub-contractor is left out in the cold with parts they can't use or sell as in the case of ASM and Colt, is a labor dispute. Either a walk off or a lock out and in the seventies there was a lot of labor disputes which led to strikes.

That's probably what happened to Colt Industries. ASM got stuck with a bunch of Colt marked barrels and were probably selling them to anyone who would buy them. I don't know.
 
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The plot thickens. When I bought a cased ASM replica Walker produced by Whittington Arms in 1981 (aka the Texas Mounted Volunteers commemorative) it came with Lt. Col. R.L. Whittingtons seminal book on the military Whitneyville Walker. In the letter and accompanying book he indicates that his TMV Walker and the 2nd gen Walkers are from the same manufacturer. If true thats news to me and is contrary to what I had thought about the 2nd gen Walkers.
 
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Just FWIW, but IIRC Italian law requires proof only of complete guns, so parts kits and spare parts are not going to have proof marks.

Jim
 
I think that's how it works Jim, and the Second and Third generation Colts have no 'proof' marks but is there revolvers out there with actual Colt barrel and frame markings that have 'proof' marks. I think that's what your getting at Elhombre, right? :)
 
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I had always thought that the 2nd gen Walkers and other 2nd gens were built from rough castings sourced from Uberti through Imperato, but Lt. Col. Whittington brings up this ASM connection. All I am sure of at this point is that my ASM Walker appears to be identical to a 2nd gen Walker except for the Italian proof marks, sn's, and ASM marks under the loading lever. I really need to get Alders or Russell's book to see if this ASM "connection" is covered
 
I just ran across this thread so pardon me for coming in late. I have a Paterson with the Cotl barrel marking in script and turned end for end from the real McCoy. There is a Dragoon on GB with the Cotl markings also. :eek:
 
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