I've asked before, but what AR/rifle for me...

[Skribs]

I've recently learned that unless it is field stripping and cleaning, adding on rail attachments, or putting on a magazine tube extension on a shotgun, I take the gun to a gunsmith. (I've even managed to put the magazine tube extension on wrong - don't ask me how - and put a hole in a trigger, so I've learned my limits). With that said, my old plan to get an AR and upgrade a few parts is not a very good one for me.

So, I need advice on an AR to get that will work, but meets what I need. Some people don't need rail attachments, but for me they're pretty much the only way I can customize the gun without paying someone to do it for me. Specifically, I'd be looking for:

*Something reliable
*Quad rail (monolithic top rail preferred, but not required)
*14.5-16" barrel (flash hider present, no muzzle brake)
*.223/5.56mm
*Ambi mag release and safety (I use the claw method on the AR charging handle, so I can do with a RH charging handle)
*Collapsible stock (not folding, just telescoping)

After that, price would be a big consideration. This would be an HD gun, and at the ranges in my condo, accuracy isn't too big of a concern. The important thing would be that once it comes out of the box, all I have to do is screw stuff on the rails and show it plenty of love and affection.

 

[Cosmoline]

With those specs, you'd probably be best off getting a lower with the stock on and then just buying a quality upper off gunbroker. But modding AR's is very simple apart from a few quirks like removing the factory drift pins on a front sight.

Mating uppers and lowers is not gunsmithing. The fit may not be absolutely gap-free, but it doesn't have to be.

 

[RTownsend]

What customization do you need? If you only want a white light and sling attachments then I would recommend a S&W sport and additional Magpul furniture. You will have no problem installing the Magpul stuff. For a budget rifle this would be hard to beat. IWC will hook you up for sling and light mounts.

I've had several quad rails and hate them. If I wanted a metal free float hand guard then I would go with a smooth round guard like comes on a Daniel Defense V7.

 

[Skribs]

Like I said in the OP, I want it to come with everything right out of the box.

"You will have no problem installing"...I've heard that before, and it's never true. I am more dangerous to my own equipment when attempting to do it myself than Tim Allen's character on the sitcom Home Improvement.

 

[Buzznrose]

I'm not an AR guru by any stretch, but from what I've seen, all companies who make ARs seem to have models with the quad rails. I am not sure about the ambi-mag release, that isn't something I'm familiar with.

I have a Ruger SR556 that came pretty loaded. I got it new in box for $1450

http://www.ruger.com/products/sr556Standard/models.html

I get grief because it's a piston gun, but I like it, and it is absolutely reliable for what I need. It is a bit nose heavy, but I can deal with it. My rifle came with 3 mags, quad rail, iron sights, case. I put a cheap Vortex red dot optic on it that keeps zero incredibly well and has a lifetime warranty. I also put a cheap front grip and VTAC sling on it. I shoot hogs and IDPA with my gun, and will shoot coyotes when I get going on my Montana trip. Lots of other stuf could be mounted if I wanted...light, laser, bottle opener, nail file, corkscrew, yada yada yada.

Colt, Daniels Defense, CMMG, Windham, LMT, Larue, S&W, etc. also make similar guns, albeit most are not piston driven.

Seems like lots of guys hate piston AR's. I don't know why, but I don't care. My Ruger shoots very well. Only issue I ever had was when it was brand new, it hated steel ammo. Guess it was too tight. After a 1000 or so rounds of brass, things loosened up and it eats anything I feed it. I mostly shoot brass, but I do shoot steel from time to time.

 

[Skribs]

Yeah, I know a lot of companies have options with the rail, I was more looking for some of the less-common features to make the rifle easier to use for us lefties.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Since you're a lefty, how about this?

http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=13_21&products_id=214

 

[Skribs]

I'm a bit hesitant to buy a left-hand model, because if something breaks and I actually do need to take it to a gunsmith, he's going to have a lot less options. I'd be more comfortable with an ambidextrous right-handed model.

 

[Girodin]

I wouldn't rule out getting a separate lower and upper. If you cannot put an AR upper on an AR lower then you can't even field strip it. All that is required to put an upper on is to push the pins through the wholes. This is the same thing you do with at least the rear pin to field strip and clean the gun.

Buying a lower with the features you want and being open to any upper may well allow you to get more gun for the money.

I am aware of three truly Ambi lowers: AXTS, LWRC, and Seekins. I may well be wrong but I do not believe the LWCR is available as a separate lower. The AXTS Ambi lower is expensive $429 and it will still require some assembly (perhaps it is available elsewhere as a complete lower, I don't know). http://axtsweapons.com/products/AX556 The seekins is also rather expensive, it starts at about $529 for a complete lower. http://www.seekinsprecision.com/ar-lowers-1/complete-lower.html

For a turn key gun, LWCR offers some. They are not cheap. I don't know what the best price one might be found at is, however, all LWCRs that I've seen are north of $2000. The M6A2 is also a piston gun (your OP didn't specify DI but I thought I'd point it out anyhow). Something like their M6A2 Operator.

There are some other lowers that are mostly ambi but not totally. Typically they don't allow the bolt to be locked.

You can make any normal lower much more lefty friendly with a Norgon or Troy ambi mag release, an Ambi safety, and a BAD lever. Give the price options of the above, this is probably the most economical (I suppose that depends on what your starting price for the lower is though). The above mentioned parts should cost less than $200. So you can do the math and see which option really is cheaper. Even if you really had to pay someone to assemble the lower with these parts or add them to a gun you otherwise liked it might be cheaper. I don't know what someone charges for that kind of work as I honestly cannot imagine paying someone to do it.

 

[ZGunner]

I could be wrong and probably am, but the only thing differnet is the placement of the controls and the BCG. Those can be orders from Stag for the same price as anything else I'm sure.... if of course something does break.

 

[C-grunt]

Guns with complete ambi lowers that I can think of are KAC SR15s and I believe LMT make one too for the MRP. Both of those rifles are very very good rifles but cost around 1500-2000 bucks.

If you've never handled a KAC SR15 you owe it to yourself to try it out. They feel incredible in the hands and weigh a lot less than you will think when you look at it.

http://www.knightarmco.com/portfoli...l&term=sr-15&features=sr15e3-iws-carbine-mod1

 

[Forsaken352]

Do this. Go buy yourself a Rock River LAR-15. It has a 1/7 twist rate (pushing higher grain bullets accurately is an option), has a chrome lined barrel (is supposed to last longer in terms of overall round count and can stay dirtier longer with no ill effects if you're not up to par with cleaning as often as you should be), has a 2 stage trigger which has probably 1/8th? inch of travel then seems like a hair trigger, is carbine length, has 6 position stock, A4 style upper (has rail space for optics instead of carrying handle), and a bird cage flash hider with no port on the underside to reduce dust while shooting low to the ground. No, it does not come with a quad rail, or ambidextrous features, however, with what you will probably save from other manufactures who come from the factory with those accessories, you could easily afford any upgrades you wish to have. If you're unsure about stripping the rifle to install said accessories, just look it up on the internet or ask the forums and people would be glad to help. No gunsmithing required. I hope this helps!

Also, I see in one of your requirements you suggest a 14.5-16inch barrel. I'm not sure if you know anything about NFA regulations or not, but anything under 16 inches is considered a short barrel rifle (SBR) and requires you pay a $200.00 tax stamp, fingerprints, passport style photos, chief LE signature, and about 6 months of wait time. Most manufactures give their "16 inch" barrels about an extra .1 - .25 inch to make it 16.1/16.25 inches so as to avoid legal troubles due to the ATF's all powerful "measuring devices". The only way to avoid this while still maintaining a shorter than 16 inch barrel length would be to permanently attach a muzzle device (i.e. flash hider/muzzle brake/etc.) to make the overall length including muzzle device to 16in. +.

 

[Skribs]

Forsaken, a 14.5" barrel with a 1.5" flash hider is legally a 16" barrel. Some manufacturers offer legal rifles with a 14.5" barrel.

Girodin, if punching pins is required to field strip an AR for cleaning, I don't think an AR is for me anymore. Last time I did anything that involved punching pins I put a hole in a trigger that wasn't supposed to be there. I am notoriously terrible at DIY work. I am not exaggerating here. That is why I want something that I can take out of the box and have it work.

Piston or DI doesn't matter to me, as long as it's reliable. I'm not even 100% sold that I want an AR over another rifle platform. I do know that I do not like the AK, though.

ETA: Are you talking about punching pins like with a hammer and punch, or just putting a pin back in place with finger pressure? The later I can do.

 

[Forsaken352]

"a 14.5" barrel with a 1.5" flash hider is legally a 16" barrel. Some manufacturers offer legal rifles with a 14.5" barrel." Yes, sir, that's what I described. Only if it's permanently attached, though.

" if punching pins is required to field strip an AR for cleaning, I don't think an AR is for me anymore." I think you're thinking of the wrong kind of pins. These are not pins you hammer on with a punch. These you simply push with your fingers and pull from the opposite side. They don't even fully remove from the lower receiver as there is a detent to not allow this. Aside from an AK, this is probably the easiest rifle to field strip, in my opinion.

Here's a URL to a youtube video of an in depth field strip. It's a bit dark, but you should be able to get a good understanding as to what it takes to disassemble.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-_HggzUPu0

 

[Skribs]

Ah, okay. Yeah I wasn't sure, that's why I edited my post above.

Another question I had on Giridon's post: what is a "turn key gun"? Never heard that expression before.

 

[Girodin]

Turnkey: general is a word used to mean something that is sold to the consumer in a ready to be used fashion. It is not an expression that is unique to firearms. I don't know if it originated in motor sports but you hear it in that context a lot. You also hear it in construction, real estate etc. It just means something ready to use out of the box. No more work or assembly required.

ETA: Are you talking about punching pins like with a hammer and punch, or just putting a pin back in place with finger pressure? The later I can do.

The latter.

 

[Forsaken352]

"Piston or DI doesn't matter to me, as long as it's reliable. I'm not even 100% sold that I want an AR over another rifle platform. I do know that I do not like the AK, though."

Since the invention of the first AR style rifles in 1957?, they have use dirtect impingement systems. First, Stoner was the designer. Armalite was the company that made the first production models as AR-10s (.308Win. model AR's), then they were looking for something in a smaller caliber (back then select fire was still legal and .308 on full auto has to pack a good punch and decent amount of recoil), and this is when the Ar-15 (still select fire) was born. After I think 2? years, Armalite sold the rights to Colt to build/produce the Ar-15 rifles. The AR was put to the test by the military and adopted as the M16a1 and possibly/probably A2 in the Vietnam era. (full auto on the a1 caused overheating issues and the 3rd. burst of the a2 was adopted) Since then, more manufacturers have jumped into the race producing their own line of AR style rifles, military adopted the m16a3,a4,m4,m4a1(with the m16a3 and the m4a1 being full auto and the m16a4 and m4 being 3rd. burst) and the automatic weapons ban of '86 took place. This information on the history should be correct, but not completely positive. Just a bit of history, a little off topic, but now you know. Now, with all that in mind, the AR/m16s all have used direct impingement gas systems since the birth of the AR's with little known failure. The only problem with DI is that it is dirtier and runs hotter than a short-stroke piston, which requires that you maintain your rifle more often, but that's suggested with any rifle. Since the DI runs dirtier, carbon fouling during Vietnam on the early production AR's caused the bolt to sometimes not go into full battery. They found a remedy for this by installing a forward assist knob which would literally force the bolt into full battery. This is still apparent on most modern day AR's still, but is really not necessary for everyday normal function for the average shooter as we are not running mag after mag full auto. Hope that helps.

P.S.- No clue on what a Turn Key Gun is. Never heard of such a thing. Perhaps he's referring to the gas key on the bolt carrier? But that doesn't turn at all. Not sure.

 

[Skribs]

Ah. Yeah not too experienced with real estate, I know enough about my car to take it in for oil changes every so often...and you can obviously tell from my position on putting together my own AR how I am with construction.

ETA: You posted while I was typing:

Since the invention of the first AR style rifles in 1957?, they have use dirtect impingement systems. First, Stoner was the designer. Armalite made the first production models as AR-10s (.308Win. model AR's), then they were looking for something in a smaller caliber (back then select fire was still legal and .308 on full auto has to pack a good punch and decent amount of recoil), and this is when the Ar-15 (still select fire) was born. After I think 2? years, Armalite sold the rights to Colt to build/produce the Ar-15 rifles. The AR was put to the test by the military and adopted as the M16a1 and possibly/probably A2 in the Vietnam era. (full auto on the a1 caused overheating issues and the 3rd. burst of the a2 was adopted) Since then, more manufacturers have jumped into the race producing their own line of AR style rifles, and the automatic weapons ban of '86 took place. This should be correct, but not completely positive. Just a bit of history, a little off topic, but now you know. Now, with all that in mind, the AR/m16s all have used direct impingement gas systems since the birth of the AR's with little known failure. The only problem with DI is that it is dirtier and runs hotter than a short-stroke piston, which requires that you maintain your rifle more often, but that's suggested with anything you end up with. Since the DI runs dirtier, carbon fouling during Vietnam on the early production AR's caused the bolt to sometimes not go into full battery. They found a remedy to this by installing a forward assist knob which would literally force the bolt into full battery. This is apparent on most modern day AR's still, but is really not necessary for normal function as we are not running mag after mag full auto. Hope that helps.

Yeah I know, and I know the sterotypical limitations of both the DI and the piston systems. However, as long as it is reliable (which both should be) and accurate enough for my needs (which both should be), I don't care how the bolt gets pushed back. I'm just saying I don't want something that is going to save me money in the short term but choke up when I need it to spit lead.

 

[Forsaken352]

I still believe the DI is still the way to go. That old saying, "don't fix what aint broken." applies here. There was nothing wrong with the DI in the first place, but I figure too many die hard AK enthusiasts probably had to poke their heads into the Ar's neck of the woods and while it does work, I personally see it probably taking away from accuracy. Some would probably argue that I'm dead wrong, but it's direct gas flow through a tube smaller than a coffee straw vs. a piston bouncing back and forth. Any sudden jolt of a rifle, no matter how minute, will throw of aim/POI. Now, I'm not completely biased. I do own both an Ar and Ak and love both for what they are, but the same reason I don't like .223 Ak's, I don't like piston driven Ar's. Granted, I've never had experience on one, but from everything I've read/heard/watched, I'm very skeptical about one. As far as accuracy goes, it depends on what your use is going to be. If it's strictly plinking/home defense, the Ar will serve you well. Sight in the irons at 25meters on a 2"x2" target and it'll be good out to 300meters on a man sized target with little drop compensation. If you're looking to hunt, I suggest a 7.62/.308 Ar as your weapon of choice. If looking for competition, then perhaps an Ar15 lower with a .22 dedicated upper would serve you well. Or both an Ar15 upper/lower and purchase an additional .22 upper for saving money while still being able to shoot hundreds or rounds/competition. So, I ask this. What is going to be your main use?

 

[allaroundhunter]

I'm a bit hesitant to buy a left-hand model, because if something breaks and I actually do need to take it to a gunsmith, he's going to have a lot less options. I'd be more comfortable with an ambidextrous right-handed model.

All that is different is the BCG....and that can easily be ordered from Stag. You can have a few extra BCG parts on hand (which is a good idea anyways), and not have to worry about it. There really is not much different b/w a right hand model and a LH.

 

[Skribs]

My main use is going to be HD, at a distance of no more than maybe 30 feet, most likely 12 feet or less. So yes, I think that any slight loss of accuracy that a piston system may have is going to be miniscule at the distances I am talking about. Whether it is piston or DI isn't a factor in my decision-making process. Both can be accurate and reliable enough for my needs. It depends more on the QC of the manufacturer, I think. Reliability and price, as well as being lefty- and antihandiman-y friendly, are my primary concerns.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

OP
A machine repairman by trade but in management now at 53 I have been spinning wrenches and admiring firearms all my life. I have had some pistols apart that I was literally afraid I could not reassemble but did, and as a nice bonus they worked when I was done.

However .......when it came to getting my first AR (a very short while ago) I wanted a "turn key" gun and I knew I wanted a Colt. I saved my money and bought an LE 6920. I have burned just over 100 223 rounds so far and the only plan I have is to start working through the 2000 more I have stashed. I may talk myself into some kind of optic about Christmas time as long as the world doesn't end on the 21st.

Even though I constantly read that I could build one for 1/2 the money this approach worked for me and I am a happy camper.

good luck!

PS. I'm a lefty but I don't buy lefty guns. I think it hurts you on resale... even though I never seem to sell one. I've been running RH guns so long the only ones I avoid buying are bolt rifles.

 

[Forsaken352]

I know this is kind of late, but I just got back. You claim your primary use is going to be home defense at a range of 12ft. and probably no more than 30ft. Well, that's fine, but keep in mind that the standard iron sights (i.e. A2 front and peep rear) will not line up the point of aim with the point of impact as it is too close. It may be enough to line up at 30ft., but I'm not sure. I know 12ft., if your aiming say head, for example, you'd hit torso. As far as a reputable manufacturer goes, just stick with brands such as Colt, RRA, Bushmaster, Stag, Knights Armament, LWRC, etc. Stay away from things like the polymer lower receivers or anything on the extreme cheap side. Remember, "You get what you pay for!". All of these, as far as I know can be swapped for ambidextrous parts if you so wish, but I have a lefty friend who shoots my Ar all the time with no difficulty, so I suggest perhaps growing used to a right handed model and using the spare cash on ammunition/optics/accessories/etc. Just my 2 cents there.

 

[helotaxi]

The "left-handed" upper is a complete gimmick and doesn't add anything to the ergos of the rifle for a lefty. It kicks the brass out the other side...so? The brass deflector keeps you from catching brass in the face with a standard upper. The charging handle on a left-handed upper is still the standard right-handed charging handle and the dust cover flip up. Depending on what you have mounted on the rail, the dust cover can't flip all the way out of the way.

As a lefty, the only "concession" I've made on my ARs is an ambi safety. The other controls are very easily manipulated otherwise. Right thumb on the mag release. Trigger finger on the bolt release.

 

[allaroundhunter]

You claim your primary use is going to be home defense at a range of 12ft. and probably no more than 30ft. Well, that's fine, but keep in mind that the standard iron sights (i.e. A2 front and peep rear) will not line up the point of aim with the point of impact as it is too close. It may be enough to line up at 30ft., but I'm not sure. I know 12ft., if your aiming say head, for example, you'd hit torso.

Not quite, that is an extreme exaggeration. The sights are only about 2.5" above the barrel, so that is the furthest distance that the POI will differ from the POA in those first 30 ft. If you are aiming at the nose, the lowest you will hit is the mouth. There really will not be a big enough difference b/w POA and POI to make a difference in an HD situation.