J-frame and laser grip carry, experiences?

[Strykervet]

I was at a gunshow yesterday and picked up a great condition, pre-lock 649-3. In the box, with the papers, shot little. I really like the shrouded hammer, the trigger pull on this little gem is close to being as good as my 686. For $450 out the door given condition and vintage (guessing early to mid '90's), not bad.

When my wife saw it, she kissed me, hugged me, high fived me, thanked me, and then took it away from me. She really loved my 686+, but it was too big to carry, liked my 340PD, but not the recoil and lack of a really nice SA pull; this one though, it is "just right" and the shrouded hammer and fine trigger weren't lost on her either. She also wants to lose the full size Glock she's been carrying, she is okay with carrying it but wanted something smaller. This fit the bill without losing raw power, and she can probably handle it better too.

Now she can practice, she can train, but she isn't going to invest a lot of time into it and she hasn't had the kind of training I have. She also has a limited interest in it. Sure she can go to the range and shoot and practice and she has never had to stop for lack of ammo. She knows how to point shoot a handgun accurately at close distance, and she can shoot pretty well aimed fire at a range with a host of firearms. But in a fight, from my viewpoint, she is at a disadvantage. I fear her not being able to perform even some of the fundamental things we've practiced. Such as the point shooting. But keeping her eyes on the danger should be instinctual, so...

My question, to those of you that have them, have a spouse with one, and to women in particular with them, do the Crimson Trace laser grips lend any tactical value? What I mean, are the they reliable and accurate enough to depend on, while being something of value in regards to a person with limited training? Basically, can you just instincitvely pull it, point it and shoot as would be expected?

I think her choice of taking the 649 away from was a good one... She really likes J-frames, she got sold on a 317 for defense a long time ago, inadequate but she liked(s) it. And she really likes the 686+ a LOT. So this revolver is natural, no wonder she took to it right away. She wants longer grips, so I've decided on a nice set of wood or micarta grips, but if the laser helps, I'll get those for her. What do you think, those of you that HAVE them, USE them, or have USED them? I don't care what you think about them if you don't have experience with them in this case. Thanks!

 

[coop2564]

I have one on my Charter arms. They are accurate at defensive distances in most lighting conditions, but very brite sun not so much. They are very helpful in mastering trigger control and point and shoot. I practice mostly with my irons though.

 

[Strykervet]

I have one on my Charter arms. They are accurate at defensive distances in most lighting conditions, but very brite sun not so much. They are very helpful in mastering trigger control and point and shoot. I practice mostly with my irons though.

Thanks, that's what I'm looking for. Welcome to the site. I suspected they'd go well with the point shooting she already knows, I'm obviously looking to these to make aiming in a SD situation easier, not harder, so impressing unecessary equipment on her isn't a good idea. Good to know about lighting. Too bad they don't come in green.

At the range, I have her focus on shooting fundamentals. Target shooting with whatever sights that particular weapon has, so she's comfortable with irons to ACOGs, J-frames to AR's. Her favorite weapons are the 10/22 with a red dot (hey, why'd you take that off!?) that 317, and a 686+ 6" loaded with specials. All fun range stuff, she picked that out of the lot pretty quick. I suspect she'd mostly shoot irons at the range with this pistol, mostly with specials, and use the magnums and the laser now and again for practice and carry. Like I said, this revolver should be a natural for her, based on preference and practice.

 

[velocette]

I have CT lasergrips on all 3 of my carry handguns. (2 J frames & a 4" Officers model 1911) They have been totally reliable, I change their batterys once a year whether they need it or not.
When used on the J frames, they make it easy to shoot good groups at 50 ft and more as long as the light is not very bright. (The red lasers are not useful in bright daylight beyond 10 ~ 15 ft.)
Overall, I think that the CT Lasergrips are an excellent addition to a personal defense firearm.

Roger

 

[LCPor9mm]

Laser grips

I have a S&W Airweight with the CT laser and while I like it and think it is a useful tool for SD, I cannot see the dot in the bright Florida sun. The outdoor range where I practice is limited to 15 yds (they keep saying they are going to put in a 21 foot line) and at that distance the dot is only visible on cloudy days. I shot at a friends range a couple weeks ago and could not see the light (no pun intended) at 25 feet. Nightime or even indoors is a whole different animal. Point shooting with both eyes open is fast and easy. Also, I have noticed that on occasion I can grip single handed in such a fashion that the light goes out, which is not a good thing in a SD situation. I'm not sure if this happens to others but it does happen to me once in a while. I am not changing this gun at present, but if I had it to do over again I would have to seriously consider a Big Dot or Tru Glow in lieu of the laser, or pehaps a more expensive green laser.

 

[wgp]

I have Crimson Trace grips on a Smith 442, kind of an experiment. I don't carry this gun very often but I think on such a small pistol with nearly non-existent sights the laser is a good thing. It is very bright and has held zero to my satisfaction. The CT grips are slightly larger than the factory grips that came on my gun, which for me is a good thing.

 

[rcmodel]

while being something of value in regards to a person with limited training?

Not really.

If a person doesn't practice enough to be proficient with open sights?

They will miss just as far & consistently with a laser.

Lasers are a good training tool, as they will allow you to see things like jerking the trigger.

However, if you put the laser spot on the target and jerk the trigger or flinch, you will miss just as bad as with doing the same thing with open sights.

rc

 

[JERRY]

CT laser grips are great.

my daughter has a CT laser on her P22 and my wife has the 305 on her model 60 NY-1.
she had the pink lady CT grip at first and really liked it, but after getting attention at the range she felt funny and wanted a regular black one.

they help with trigger control, aiming, makes you realize how accurate a snub can be, are a threat deterent, that laser moving around is not fun if youre on the other end of it.
helps build confidence in inexperienced shooters.....

other than cost whats not to like?

 

[pintler]

They are great, esp. for snubs with rudimentary sights.

We sight ours in, but then mostly either switch them off or cover the laser with tape for practice. Our (better half and I) theory is if it's dark enough and you see the dot, go with it, but don't count on it; be ready to shoot the irons.

How far you can see the dot in daylight depends critically on the targeted surface - a sweater might be completely different than a shirt.

 

[oldfool]

I agree with rcmodel
target aquisition in low light conditions, yes, that's where the lasers... shine
But I do not believe they are very helpful in improving accuracy

If anything, they can simply be a distraction that interferes with shooter's proper mental focus; not unlike "looking to the target" in between shots to shift focus to hits. Not good. Looking at where your last shot went, instead of focusing on where your next shot should go. IMO not good even in fast "point shooting", in which there still is a proper 'sight picture', it's just a bit different sight picture.

Too easy for the shooter to let the on-paper jitters become a too strong influence on technique, vs. just letting the shot go when it's there. Especially so for me, "Bad-Hands-Bert". I know my hands are crap, but I do surprisingly much better absent that unwanted influence. Only one I tried was a Crimson Trace on an LCP, and I shoot better without it, took it off. Your mind simply cannot ignore that dancing light on paper you get with a continuous laser. True I suspect of even 'great-hands" shooters, because they too will strive too mightily to hold that dot absolutely still on dead X, and will be prone to hesitate when they should not. That will mess with your trigger stroke.

The laser technique I think of most value for training practice is a handful of snap caps and a pulse laser insert in the muzzle that throws a very short pulse when the hammer drops. Works well, no matter what sort of sight picture you use, fast or slow. Next best thing to live fire practice, IMO. Instant visual feedback on every shot without ever really "looking-to-the-target" (sort of subliminal), and with no before or after shot distractions, especially good for rapid fire practice.

If you have not tried that, you might have her give it a whirl.
Trigger time is good, even the non-noisy kind.
Amazing how quick you can run thru 500 revolver 'rounds' with your trigger finger, there being no reload time required, quiet, at home in house, and cheap fun
Most 'occasional shooters' will wear down their finger well before they run down the batteries

 

[Strykervet]

Not really.

If a person doesn't practice enough to be proficient with open sights?

They will miss just as far & consistently with a laser.

Lasers are a good training tool, as they will allow you to see things like jerking the trigger.

However, if you put the laser spot on the target and jerk the trigger or flinch, you will miss just as bad as with doing the same thing with open sights.

rc

Yeah, I know this (but you are right to point it out). I trained SDM's in the army so my idea of a "trained" shooter and another's idea might be different. I consider your average infantry Joe to be a horrible shot and poorly trained when it comes to shooting in general. They think they are hot stuff, but that is because they really don't know how much they don't know. I thought I was smart until I went to college and really learned how much I didn't know!

I'd say she can shoot at least as good, if not better, than most soldiers. She can use the sights, and I've spent some time with her. What she hasn't done is been under stress with that pistol in her hand. She's never run a shoot house, she's never been shot at, she's never even really been in a fight. That is what I mean. A lot of my training isn't allowed at public ranges (and wasn't on army ones either!).

So basically, what I see in my head happening, is that she is approached well within her "bubble" and has to draw. There is a struggle and she secures the bag (purse carry) and gets the pistol free at which point she releases the bag and the aggressor is left "holding the bag" quite literally. At this point one of two things will happen. The guy will give up, either taking off with or without the bag (assuming the bag was the target --but she is taught to never give up that weapon) or the guy will become enraged and escalate the attack (perhaps the bag wasn't the target). At this point, she has to shoot, and during all of this, there wasn't a moment to aim. The encounter happened at such a distance as to make extending the weapon a bad idea. Here she would point shoot, I would and that is what I taught her.

This is the moment, the exact moment, where I am seeing the grips being an advantage. She can keep eyes on, point shoot as taught, and have that red dot on the target simply as a plus. An aid.

As for irons and the range, there are days when she can outshoot me. Had she gone this weekend with me and a member from this forum, she'd have smoked me. I was shaking like a leaf! I was hungry and tired... See, sometimes it doesn't matter how much training you have, some days are worse than others and some days things don't work out in your favor.

As to lighting... I can imagine they'd be not so useful in FL! I remember the sun... Big bright orange ball in the sky? Felt warm? Made things more colorful and bright? Yeah... We live in W. WA. We get about the same amount of sun as Mars gets. There is a brief moment in the summer where it shines, but not long. Also, due to her job, she would likely face the threats in the morning or evening. Typically evening, typically indoors too. In very close quarters almost always. I also have a laser on a Glock pistol, I put it on there when I use it for HD only, and I suspect the laser is quite similar. I'm aware of the drawbacks. I don't depend on it, but it is nice to have for around the house.

Thanks for all the answers by the way.

 

[Strykervet]

"The laser technique I think of most value for training practice is a handful of snap caps and a pulse laser insert in the muzzle that throws a very short pulse when the hammer drops."

Yeah, we used to do this with military boresights for practice in the classroom during and after cleaning and such. I don't have one now, wish I did, I'd do this myself. It is VERY good practice for calling shots and controlling the weapon.

I understand the dancing sights. It is common under stress. So I teach to fire while they are moving, calling the shot. You get good enough at it so that after awhile you just try to trace figure eights and release on the moment, preferably at the bottom of an exhale. If you fight the movement, you'll only shoot worse.

We talked about it some more last night and I think we'll probably go with them. Based on some of what you've all said on here, I think she has the skill level sufficient to use them without depending on them, and that they will be useful and not a hinderance. We had to get longer grips anyway (too bad the laser grips don't come in a nice wood or micarta!) but I wanted a little experienced advice first. Thank you all.

BTW, she REALLY digs this revolver... She went to the store yesterday and when she left, she let me know she left the Glock she'd been carrying on the dresser, that she'd replaced it already with the 649! That was quick! Well, I got my .45 back, I can turn it into a .50GI now, but I lost that little revolver and I only got to fire four rounds out of it... Next revolver I get will be that scandium .44mag, I bet she won't want to take that one away!

 

[Dr_2_B]

They are great, esp. for snubs with rudimentary sights.

+1 on this. I believe the CT grips benefit snubbies more than any other pistol. Yet, I have them on several pistols. I think they're great. And I believe that a person who is moderately trained (knows well how to use a pistol but doesn't shoot but 5 or 10 times a year) is aided a lot by the lasers.

 

[llwsgn]

i have crimson trace on a couple of 12oz 357s. the fixed sights on these guns print 10" too high. lasers are zeroed. lasers are as easy to bring on target as a flashlight. they are not of much benefit in outdoor daylight, but fine indoors. i think that you'd want to use them carefully if you were actually down to business, particularly against multiple opponents as they do telegragh your position. i like mine. no switch on my j framed version, they go on with grip pressure.

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

I think crimson trace grips are the best thing since giant tin cans full of mixed flavor popcorn.

For that model, a pair of LG-405's should do you just fine.

http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Products/SmithWesson/LG405/tabid/611/Default.aspx

Slim profile - padded backstrap - adjustable, intuitive laser that holds true.

 

[chicharrones]

I have the Crimson Trace hard polymer model without the master switch on my Taurus 85UL. It sees daily carry in my pocket as long as my pants for the day will carry a gun that size, which happens to be about 90% of the time.

My CT is 3 years old and still works like new, even though I have to clean the pocket lint and dust out of it once in a while. (Use an air compressor or canned air.)

The only downside to the hard polymer version versus the rubber overmolded version is the increase in felt recoil. The upside is the hard polymer version doesn't grab on to clothing.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

lasers

Lasers have dubious benefits at best. For a tactical operator (offensive shooter) that red dot may be a great asset during low light.

In defensive or reactive shooting... it just gives the brain something else to chew on while it's trying to control the trigger finger.

Learn to use irons... learn to frame the whole gun ("point shoot", for lack of a better term) but most of all... learn to SHOOT

If you lack confidence in low light... try it. If you can see the threat you can see your sights. Besides, most serious defensive shooters carry a flashlight... and you should know how to use that in conceert with your handgun.

 

[dcludwig]

Quote:
They are great, esp. for snubs with rudimentary sights.

+1 on this. I believe the CT grips benefit snubbies more than any other pistol. Yet, I have them on several pistols. I think they're great. And I believe that a person who is moderately trained (knows well how to use a pistol but doesn't shoot but 5 or 10 times a year) is aided a lot by the lasers.

+2 I have a 642 that came with factory CT grips. I really like them. I know I SHOULD be at the range more often, but I just got get there. I don't understand some of the arguments against laser grips - if someone asked me, I would encourage them to get the grips. Worst case - you turn them if off you find them a distraction. Best case - in that real, rare moment of self-defense when its 10 at night at Wally-world and the thug is coming at me with a knife - the dot confirms where the round will be placed. Distraction? How so? In that millisecond it gives me confidence over confusion. Could it be a distraction to some? Sure, then DON'T use but/use laser grips. But the above point is right on. For those of us (MOST who carry, I would say), that aid may someday prove invaluable.

I dry fire with snap caps a lot at home. I'll set my alarm to go off at random times, it time the alarm sounds in means I need to draw and fire. I select different targets in my living room and sometimes I will just draw and point, then squeeze the laser to confirm where I'm aiming. It is amazing how far off target I can be. When I practice this a lot, I find my accuracy just drawing and pointing much improved. If I jerk my trigger pull will it go off target? Yepper, whether laser assisted or not. The laser just tells me when I DO jerk.

Again, it's up to the individual, but I think for many folk who carry for self defense, laser sights are a very valuable aid, especially with snubbies.

 

[Dr_2_B]

I'll set my alarm to go off at random times, it time the alarm sounds in means I need to draw and fire

Now that's a man who takes practice & preparedness seriously. People would say you're paranoid & a cowboy. But the reality is, any of us who carry could be called paranoid - we prepare for something that is exceedingly rare. And your system mimics reality as well as most things I can think of.

I like the Wilford Brimley line in The Firm. "I get paid to worry when I got nothing to worry about."

 

[jmorris]

My question, to those of you that have them, have a spouse with one, and to women in particular with them, do the Crimson Trace laser grips lend any tactical value? Basically, can you just instincitvely pull it, point it and shoot as would be expected?

You can instincitvely point and shoot any pistol with less effort than linine up a dot with a target. At the range with a little practice (less than a box of ammo) people are shocked to find they can hit a full sized popper from a fast retension shot even out to 25 yards. CQB ranges are much easier.

Any "tactical" value a laser may/maynot have as an offensive tool is diminished when used for defence, unless you are one of the folks that think brandishing a firearm helps. In that case I would suggest mace or a whistle, for someone who "isn't going to invest a lot of time into it". Unless you hold the idea that, the first time a bad guy should know you have a gun is after they have been shot by it, the likehood of said gun being used on YOU goes up. At that point I would rather have my mace used on me than a 38.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I have been experimenting and practicing with (good) gun mounted lasers for some years (home range).

The laser is the best thing going in low light. Well second best, the laser light, like the Streamlight TLR-2 is the best thing.

The laser is NOT for use in daylight, except maybe indoors. Daylight is what the iron gun sights are for. The laser is a low light/dark sighting device. Trying to use the laser in daylight is a waste of effort and will just slow you down. Unless you are very good with the laser, a good iron sight or point shooter will beat you.

The problem with lasers is people. For some reason, people, especially experienced shooters think picking up a laser equipped gun makes them a expert with the laser.
The fact is, many experienced shooters do poorly when they first try using the laser. Then because their ego is bruised they generally bad mouth the gun mounted laser.

There is a learning curve to effectively using iron sights and there is a learning curve to getting good and fast with the laser.

First thing to do is forget everything you think you know about lasers. You probably got your knowledge from the movies and it is all wrong.

Next thing is to learn the right way to use the laser and PRACTICE with it in low light. I'd say, if you want to get fast and accurate with the laser, about 25 percent of your practice should be in low light or darkness.


As an example of the level of accuracy that can be acheved in a short time point shooting with a (good) laser, this is easily done in low light.
By the time I shot at 40 yards it was so dark the target was just a Gray blur, but it was still easy to dump the mag COM.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Basically, can you just instincitvely pull it, point it and shoot as would be expected?

With a little practice a shooter can be more accurate and faster with the laser in low light than they are in daylight with iron sights (I am).



A couple examples,
A 16 year old girl ( that I taught to shoot) and her father were shooting at my place. The girl is a good shot but this day she couldn't run 5 three inch small steel targets in a row. Paper targets OK but she always missed one of the steel targets.
It was getting near dark and we were packing up.
I told the girl, "We aren't leaving until you run those steel targets. Here use my Smith (Crimson Trace laser equipped 38 Model 60 S&W) and the laser".
Faster than I can tell it she hit all 5 targets.
Her father, an experienced shooter, said, "Now that shows why you need a laser"
BTW the father is one of those experienced shooters that had trouble catching on to the laser.



The second example,
Even new shooters can do surprisingly well right away with the laser.

On the second day I was teaching this lady to shoot I had her and a couple lady friends try out this Streamlight laser/light Ruger, that I use for low light/dark practice.


The target was the hostage target where the BG is pointing his gun at you.

I gave each one of the ladies a 10 round magazine, a quick lesson on using the laser, and told them to shoot the GB in the head.
All the ladies put their 10 shots in the BG's head with no problem.

It was getting late so I picked one lady and told her, Using the laser, she had to shoot the gun out of the BG's hand, at 10 yards.

And darn if she didn't. But I told her that was not good enough. Misses are not acceptable.

 

[DAdams]

I have them on two of my J Frames. One is my wifes 642 night stander and on my M&P 340. I like and train with the laser (and w/o). I also like the grip on the 405s, mitigates the recoil somewhat.

 

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I have full sized CT's on my 642 and my SP101. Best investment ever. Beyond 50 yards it's hard to prove self defense anyway.

 

[oldfool]

M2carbine, two questions, honest questions, no presumptions
(you shoot 'em a lot more than I do, lasers)

1) do YOU shoot better with laser in not-low light than you do with irons ?
2) do YOU shoot better with laser at 15 yards or less in low-light than you do with irons ?

"With a little practice a shooter can be more accurate and faster with the laser in low light than they are in daylight with iron sights (I am)."
I heard you (I think, maybe), but at at what distance ?