J-Frame failures with .357

[Peakbagger46]

I have read here often it is not wise to shoot a lot of .357 loads in a J-frame, even in a steel J-frame. As one who is interested in buying a 3" model 60, this is of concern to me as I would probably put a good deal of .357 rounds through it.

What have you experienced as far as problems with these little guns when they are fed with .357 a lot? What parts "go" on them, and what do the repairs entail?

I know I will hear, "get a sp101", but I am not really interested in that as I intend to outfit this gun with the very compact crimson trace grips that can be had with a J-frame.

 

[rcmodel]

What parts "go" on them,

The first parts to go will be the bones & nerves in your hand & wrest.

Full-power .357 in a J-Frame is not fun, no matter what the big boys on the internet try to tell you.

Just like any gun, the J-Frame will not simply break and stop working with full power .357 loads.

It will just shake loose over time, sooner then it would shooting .38 Spc wadcutters for instance.

But once you experiance shooting a .357 J-Frame, you might decide that you won't shoot it all that much to wear it out.

rc

 

[SPW1]

The most likely problems to develop in a j frame 357 that is shot a lot are going out of time and a increasing amount of endshake. you can reduce the probability of this occurring by sticking to 38 special levels and staying away from high pressure 357 loads for the most part. If you plan on shooting a lot of full house 357's as you already know a j frame isn't the best choice.

 

[Jim K]

I have never had a problem with recoil using .357 in a J frame. No problem at all, because I am a macho man and recoil doesn't bother me a bit. No way, Jose. I can take it. (Or I think I can; if I ever shoot a .357 in a J frame, I will let you know, but up to now, I have had no problems with recoil. None.

Seriously, one poster reported that in his area, the gun shops were full of slightly used Scandium J frames, accompanied by boxes of .357 ammo with 47 rounds in them.

Jim

 

[Peakbagger46]

I forgot to add, I currently own a scandium J-frame and don't have a problem shooting the .357 rounds through it... so, the all-steel J-frame would be fine for ME to shoot.

Not trying to act macho, it just doesn't bother me. Rifles on the other hand, I don't shoot the hard kickers really well. Go figure.

 

[W.E.G.]

If you can afford a "lot" of .357 ammo, you can afford a reloading press too.

You would do well to load mild loads in .357 cases for practice, and save the median-nerve smashing loads for when you have to remind yourself just how painful it is to shoot full-house loads in a J-frame.

I have a J-Frame .357.
I've taken it to the range only once.

Lost interest in it as a defensive weapon, as it is the 3" barrel variety.
NOBODY makes a proper holster for 3" J-frame guns.

 

[roklok]

I am a big fan of the .357 steel J frames. I have never tried an alloy J frame though. I have two 640-1s and a 60-10, which is the pre-lock 3 inch model 60. I have had one of my 640-1s since 1995 when the magnum Js were introduced, and have used mostly mid range .357 loads in it. I estimate that I have put + or - 1000 .357 through it in the past 14 years. It shows no ill effects yet. It was slightly out of time, see http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=486456
but it was this way since new, it just took 14 years before I decided to do something about it.

 

[roklok]

"NOBODY makes a proper holster for 3" J-frame guns."


I actually just ordered some leather, heavy duty thread, and some leather screws to make my own IWB holster for my 60-10, as I was unable to find a suitable holster. There are some custom leather makers who do offer holsters for the 3" J though. Check this out:
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/Black_Hills_IWB.htm

 

[rcmodel]

NOBODY makes a proper holster for 3" J-frame guns.

Yes they do.

Try here:
http://www.epsaddlery.com/c-11-concealment.aspx

They make anything they make for 3" J-Frames.

rc

 

[Old Fuff]

... it just doesn't bother me.

Meaning .357 Magnum recoil in a J-frame S&W.

Maybe, maybe not. But you may not know until age 60 or higher. Then you may find out differently. Between myself, Jim Keenan and rcmodel there are many, many years of experience, and as for myself I want neither a S&W J-frame or Ruger SP 101 for extensive use with full-load .357's.

 

[Jim K]

I was kidding above; I have fired full house .357 through a Scandium J frame, and it was brutal. I fired the full cylinder and decided enough was enough. While I probably would not feel it if I was in a gunfight and probably doing things I won't mention, but I could never fire it enough with .357 to become competent with it. And a carry gun that is too brutal to practice with and scares the heck out of the shooter is probably not the gun one should be carrying. I have never heard of a BG having a heart attack from noise and muzzle blast.

Jim

 

[highorder]

Between myself, Jim Keenan and rcmodel there are many, many years of experience

I can't help but wonder how many of you old salts predate the .357?

 

[snooperman]

.357 magnum J-frames

Ask any man who has shot a lot of magnum loads in lightweight guns over time and you will find a person with a lot of nerve problems in their hand , Including one John Taffin, and many others. I do not believe the J frames will take a steady diet of magnum loads as the timing will go out slowly and other parts will slowly begin to fail as well. Heck, even my K frames in 357 magnum can't take it either. My advice is buy a Ruger if you want to shoot a lot of magnum loads.

 

[friscolatchi]

Peakbagger -

From one 46er to another, what are you trying to accomplish with the gun? Is it for target or camping at Marcy Dam?

I was kidding above; I have fired full house .357 through a Scandium J frame, and it was brutal.

Amen to the above. However, 2 or 3 cyl's in the 340 each outing is a challenge I enjoy taking.

 

[Action_Can_Do]

I find the recoil of a 357 magnum through the tiny j-frame to be worse than the recoil of the 500 S&W. Believe me, you won't fire enough 357s through the gun to shake it loose unless you really enjoy pain.

 

[orionengnr]

I have read here often it is not wise to shoot a lot of .357 loads in a J-frame, even in a steel J-frame.

Funny, I have never read or heard that. I have never heard or read of a frame failure with a j-frame. I have heard of isolated problems with overtorqued barrels, but they are the result of factory defects/assembly problems, not the result of firing with high power loads.
Much like electronics, any failures will show up early. If you get through a modest number of cycles, you will be good to go for a long time.

Having owned j-frames in steel, aluminum and Scandium, I can tell you this:
you are far more likely to experience bone/tendon/tissue damage than you are any damage to the revolver.
There was one notable instance of a shooter who claimed to have put 26,000 rounds of full-power .357 through his M-340 (and this was several years ago). While I cannot confirm or deny his experiences, I have put several hundred rounds of .357 Mag and several times that many rounds of .38 +p through a variety of j-frames. The Scandium .357 portion of this experiment was painful enough to convince me that I needed to spend my time elsewhere....pretty much, anywhere else.

If you can put enough rounds through an S&W to cause it damage, then send it back to the manufacturer. S&W will most assuredly take care of any problems that arise.

 

[HankB]

. . . I have fired full house .357 through a Scandium J frame, and it was brutal. I fired the full cylinder and decided enough was enough. . . .

My "always" gun is an S&W 340SC, which I normally load with Winchester 145 grain Silvertips. I put on Crimson Trace rubber grips that cover the backstrap, and now, thanks to the cushioning, the recoil is merely unpleasant, rather than painful.

That is, for a couple of cylinders full . . . 10 rounds at a session are about all the unpleasantness I want to experience, but coupled with a box or so of +P .38 Specials, it's enough to maintain what I consider a minimal level of competence.

 

[Shrinkmd]

I've put about 15 factory 357 158 gr rounds through a 640, and all I can saw is "wow". Well, maybe "ouch" and some four letter words as well.

I do look forward to making up some milder .357 loads to practice with, maybe 158 gr at 1000 fps or so. I imagine those would be more shootable in the 2" steel snub, and not ruin my hand/nerves/wrist bones.

 

[Confederate]

Remember that the S&W 66/19 were steel frames (and large ones by today's standards), yet their frames were warped by extesive shooting of full throttle rounds. Why wouldn't smaller J-frames?

S&W would have done well to stea...er...borrow Ruger's (and DW's) solid-frame design that adds substantial strength to the gun. Since I've never seen a .357 Model 60, I don't know how they've been fortified, but I've always hoped that the extra weight S&W gave us in the 686 could eventually be taken back with a return to medium-frame revolvers the size of the older 66. As an outdoor gun, the old Ruger Security-Six 6-inch was the choice of many hunters and hikers. The 66 was, too, if you could find one. Most 66s were going to police and the 6-inchers were often selling for way over retail. So while 66s were selling for $250+ (when available), the Ruger was a better gun, available, and could be had for $169, though you had to cobble up some better grips.

In the late 70s, I had a 2-shot .357 derringer, but it was a bear to shoot, and often I couldn't hit the paper 20 feet away. I then decided tiny, light magnums were a waste. Even out of a 19/66/SS, it wasn't a caliber for pansies. Out of a Model 60-size gun .38s are about as much as I care for. And it wasn't that long ago when people were asking if the old Model 60 could handle +P .38s -- so I have my doubts that the newer 60 can go through 5,000 full-power .357 rounds.

But who knows? I'm not gonna try it!

 

[Old Fuff]

Besides the obvious concerns about damage to the revolver as well as the shooter, one should also give some thought to the affect of recoil on fast accurate follow-up shots. Because of the usual rules of engagement, the good guy is expected to wait until the bad one attacks. To do otherwise may blow the bottom out of your self-defense claim afterwards. We would therefore think that they’re might be incoming fire going toward the good guy before he reacted to the threat and got started. If his first shot should miss or fail to do what it was supposed to, he could be in a world of hurt if the Magnum’s recoil prevented fast but accurate follow-up shots. The Old Fuff is a firm believer in precise bullet placement over raw, uncontrollable power.

 

[jfh]

I've shot a 640 about 18-20,000 rounds, as some of you know,

of which 5% or so have been 357 magnum loads starting from about 900 fps up to over 1100 fps (158-gr. lead, various powders) using book recipes. The other 95% have been typically 38+p loads, or a bit stiffer. That's 158-gr. bullets running from about 800 fps up through about 920, or 135-140 gr. lead bullets running from 860 to perhaps 920. (All of these chronograph readings from that 2&1/8" barrel.)

It's going to go in to S&W to be 'evaluated' after the 1st. From what I can tell (and my gunsmith lives 175 miles away, in NW WI), there is little or no frame stretching, but the indexing is showing signs of battering....In a SS gun weighing--what, 23 oz?

My carry gun is an M&P340--they weigh 13.3 oz--and the most I want to shoot in that, and shoot reliably well, is a 357-case reload running a 158-gr. bullet at about 900 fps. Beyond that, I cannot bring follow-up shots to bear in sufficiently short periods of time.

The M&P 340 has about 22-2500 rounds through it now, and the BC gap is unchanged from new--.004, and the lockup is as tight as new.

Personally, I prefer DAO shooting, given the tactical parameters to which I think I would use a j-frame--i.e., most likely, ten yards or less, with imminent personal threat. I'm not going to be bothering with thumbing a hammer and aiming under those circumstances--which is why I have Crimson trace sights (405, or boot-grip) installed, and use them not for aiming but for developing point-shooting skills.

Jim H.

 

[StrawHat]

Confederate

Remember that the S&W 66/19 were steel frames (and large ones by today's standards), yet their frames were warped by extesive shooting of full throttle rounds. Why wouldn't smaller J-frames?

Not quite. The problem with the K frames was the 125 grain loads (from SuperVel I believe) produced pressures and gas jetting that caused the barrels and frame at the point above the cylinder gap to erode. (Flame cutting?) Using 158 grain loads was not a problem nor any other weight. The K frames were and still are a great platform for the 357.

I only fired a few 357s from a J frame and those were a handfull. I have since quit the 357 (and the 44 Magnum) in favor of the 45 caliber revolvers. I still have a 3" M36, 38 Special, but it does not get much carry or range time.

 

[David E]

This is probably no revelation for some, but I'll share my short story.

I had borrowed a Scandium .357 stocked with custom wood grips and the owner encouraged me to go shoot it. I'd made several trips to the range and forgot the gun each time.

I was almost out the door to the range again when I suddenly remembered the gun. I grabbed the first box of .357 ammo that I saw: Corbon 125 grain JHP

At the range, I decided to shoot it first, just to make sure I didn't forget. I remember hesitating a second or two in mid trigger pull wondering "should I do this?" I decided I needed to fire it, so I did.

Big mistake.

The recoil was severe and while it didnt' break skin or bones, it did cause some joint damage that took about 3 weeks to completely heal.....and that was from ONE shot.

Granted, a different .357 load may not have been quite as bad, but I'll never know. I think these guns do have a place and I may buy one down the road, but it'll never see anything beyond +P .38 loads. Which my 642 and 442 shoot just fine.

A lightweight compact gun with big heavy grips on it is no longer a lightweight compact gun.

For me, when I need to go super light, it's with a Kahr P-9. It holds more rounds, is easier to shoot, etc, etc.

 

[Guillermo]

I would rather have my testicles peeled and dipped in brine than shoot a J-Frame with full power .357 rounds.

 

[FRJ]

I have a S&W 340-3 that I shoot nothing but full house 357 loads in and I don't find it uncomfortable at all. What is surprising is that I am really accurate with it even though it is DAO.Maybe I've just shot a lot of heavy recoiling hand guns and don't notice the recoil much. FRJ