J-Frame failures with .357

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W.E.G.

NOBODY makes a proper holster for 3" J-frame guns.

rcmodel

Yes they do.

Try here:
http://www.epsaddlery.com/c-11-concealment.aspx

They make anything they make for 3" J-Frames.

rc

Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 12:04 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: question about holster availability

Do you make a strong-side holster for a Smith and Wesson Model 60 in .357 MAGNUM caliber, with a THREE-INCH barrel and adjustable sights?

If so, can you furnish me with the particulars about price and styles?
 
>>I have a S&W 340-3 that I shoot nothing but full house 357 loads in and I don't find it uncomfortable at all. What is surprising is that I am really accurate with it even though it is DAO.Maybe I've just shot a lot of heavy recoiling hand guns and don't notice the recoil much. FRJ <<


I have to agree. Personally, I think there's a lot of hyperbole floating around.

I have a variety of big bore revolvers and perhaps it's just what you get used to. I hunt with a Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 magnum and have two Vaqueros in 44 magnum in addition to a 640 and a 642.

It just really isn't that big of a deal with proper technique and mindset.

If you don't have one or the other, aren't used to it, or just don't like it for one reason or another, that's fine. For a lot of people though, it's just not a big deal.

I've only been doing this for 39 years, though. Maybe I'll live to regret it in another 39.;)
 
C.E. Harris, of the NRA's technical staff, said he wore out a K-frame Model 19 by shooting a few thousand full throttle magnum rounds. The gun was damaged by flame cutting and frame warping. The gun went out of time at just over 2,000 rounds, was repaired and went through about 2,000 more rounds. At that point the gun was spitting and deemed irrepairable. Harris recounted this in a .357 revolver review of about eight or nine guns. Harris' stated favorite was the Ruger Security-Six.

Based on this, I suspect S&W's M60-357 either must be limited in how many magnums it can shoot or S&W has to have fortified the gun in a way that hasn't been publicized. I suspect the gun's size and weight is its best protection. I'd like to see some photos of the gun's forcing cone and top strap areas, though.

The 13/65 or Ruger's Speed-Six would be my choices for carry, and nothing smaller.
 
Ask and ye shall receive, pictures of forcing cone and top strap of 60-10 and 640-1. Pic 003 is my nearly new 60-10, and pic 004 is my 14 year old 640-1 with about 1000 rounds of 357 and more 38s through it. A weak point on the K-frame Smiths is the flat bottom of the forcing cone, this causes a weak spot and can promote cracking at that point.
 

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...if you won't consider the SP101, I'd suggest one of two courses:
1)...go to a K frame (M13, M65) in 3"...

2)...use the 158gr SWLHP+P by Remington...called the FBI or the Chicago load...proven stopping power and easy for even a child to shoot from a 2" J frame...with a little better performance out of your 3"...and you'll shoot a lot more...I buy 'em by the K from Georgia Arms for practice...carry the Remingtons cause they're softer and expand better....

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Feedingthe38Snub.htm

...a Speed-Six would be excellent...round butt in 4" or 2 3/4"...forgot them
 
I had trouble with 357 in the SP101....it hurt. I can't imagine it in a j-frame.

I shot a lightweight J-frame that had the laser grip the other day (38 special) and even with the laser site I was all over the place. In fact you could watch the recoil by watching the laser. I have shot 5 inch semi's with a laser and been on target all day.

Good luck!
 
If you fire enough .357's out of a model 60 to wear it out, you are a much better man than I am. It hurts after a couple of rounds.
 
...I've had the M19 snub, the M66 snub, the M65 3", and now the GP100 3"...I don't own a round of .357...I'm not interested in the pain...not on my end, anyways...
 
I do not like .357 even in my SP101...

I keep it loaded with 38 +P , which is fine with me. My Colt detective, which is usually my carry gun, has Hornady Critical defense or Magsafes.The problem for me with .357 in such lightweight guns is that recoil is so violent , that trying to get a quick second shot is difficult. The lighter loads afford much better control as well, which is more important than "power" per se.
 
I'm quite satisfied with SimplyRugged's holster for my 3" j-frame.

Here's the link: http://www.simplyrugged.com/ Rob Leahy

Mine is a simple, unlined pancake, made out of horsehide, and quite stiff. The boning is a bit minimal--but my 60 Pro fits right.

I wouldn't carry a blued heirloom j-frame in it, but it's a good holster. Good and tight, without a strap. Two-positions (canted / straight), and possible to strap on inside or outside the belt.

Jim H.
 
I have a friend who used to be a policeman, and could draw pretty much all the practice ammo he wanted. He was that rarity among policemen in that he was a certified gun guy. (The department had an annual budget for practice ammo, but most of the cops never drew any except right before their qualification. The chief wanted to burn the ammo up, or he wouldn't get the money in his budget for next year - that's the way the wheels of the burocracy turn.)

Anyway, I ran into him at the range one day right after I bought my .357 Magnum Centennial with a 2-1/8" barrel. I offered to let him shoot it.

He took a good solid two-handed stance and squeezed off the first round. BOOM! He lowered the gun down, looked it over (and I think counted his fingers) and exclaimed "DAMN!"

He then fired off the remaining four rounds, handed the revolver back to me, and said "If you didn't have a flinch, that thing will give you one!"

It's definitely a gun that get's carried a lot a shot little.

I carried mine today on a walk around the neighborhood. I think I'll make up some light loads in .357 cases that are maybe .38 Special strength for practice.
 
Whether it's personally painful for you or not, the recoil seriously knocks the handgun around and slows down followup shots. There's also the problem of instinctive flinching. The smallest handgun I'm willing to rely on for .357 CCW is the SP-101 or a K frame magnum. The J frames are just nuts, and almost everyone practices with .38 Special because .357 is so difficult to handle out of them.

It's definitely a gun that get's carried a lot a shot little.

Exactly. Which is NOT a firearm to carry. Your carry piece should be so familiar to you that shooting it is second nature. No flinching, no hesitation, no surprises. You should practice with it, using full power loads, at least once a month. It should be an extension of you. If you ever do have to use it for self defense, you need to be thinking about other matters. The aiming, shooting and reloading should all be second nature. If even part of your brain is saying "I hate these full powered loads," you risk a potentially fatal flinch.

This conventional wisdom that recoil magically disappears and aiming becomes so much easier in a pinch makes no sense and I've never seen or observed any supporting evidence for it. In fact in my experience it is MUCH MORE DIFFICULT to shoot when your heart rate, BP and stress levels spike. You don't want to have to deal with a J frame magnum that's already nearly impossible to control under ideal range conditions.
 
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>>I have a S&W 340-3 that I shoot nothing but full house 357 loads in and I don't find it uncomfortable at all. What is surprising is that I am really accurate with it even though it is DAO.Maybe I've just shot a lot of heavy recoiling hand guns and don't notice the recoil much. FRJ <<


I have to agree. Personally, I think there's a lot of hyperbole floating around.

I have a variety of big bore revolvers and perhaps it's just what you get used to. I hunt with a Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 magnum and have two Vaqueros in 44 magnum in addition to a 640 and a 642.

It just really isn't that big of a deal with proper technique and mindset.

If you don't have one or the other, aren't used to it, or just don't like it for one reason or another, that's fine. For a lot of people though, it's just not a big deal.

I've only been doing this for 39 years, though. Maybe I'll live to regret it in another 39.

Well, either that or the nerve endings in your hands have been pounded into submission so that they no longer say to your brain "Sonuva! That HURT!" :p ;)

Judging from most of the comments I've read or heard, I think it is safe to say that guys like you are probably in the minority on this one. Not that that's a bad thing, my hat's off to you!

The funniest comment I heard about shooting an airlite .357 was that it is comparable to slamming your hand in the hood of an early '70s Pontiac Bonneville. :eek:

I've never fired a .357 J frame of any type, and don't plan to. Judging from the kick of my 15 oz airweight 642 shooting 158 grain 38 +P, which I find to be manageable and doable, if not exactly pleasant, I am 100% sure I would not like an airlite .357. I'd much rather shoot my 5.5" .44 Mag Ruger Redhawk, with heavy (though not painful) recoil.
 
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Looks like this thread has changed subjects from the origional intent.

I believe most of shooting the more powerful loads well is in the mindset. Shooting a defensive pistol is not target shooting, it is gunfighting for me, as this is how I have been trained to look at it. With that in mind, agression towards the target is what my focus is on when shooting a defensive weapon.

As far as loss of control, I don't have that issue, except with the really heavy loads; the gun kicks straight back rather than really moving off target.

Most may think I'm crazy, and that is fine. I don't think everyone needs to carry a .357 for personal defense, and most are probably better served with a .38.
 
After shooting a box or two of .357mag 158 gr. wad cutters through my 4" Taurus Mod. 65, I don't feel the pain in the thumb joint from an old golf injury so much. I really do enjoy shooting that particular .357, and the pain medication really doesn't upset my stomach that much.
 
Over on the S&W forum there were a few of those Scandium J-frames with cracked frames under the barrel. I don't care for J-frames and did not pay attention (other than to think about what passes for a decent revolver these days :) ) to whether they were 357 or not.

I fired one round at the range through one of those light weight wind up J-frames. My thumb and trigger finger went numb. No thanks.

My 38 Cobra is all the snubbie I need. Loaded with 38's I'm well armed and assured of an accurate follow up shot. Besides, the only place 38's are not deadly enough is on the internet! :neener: TJ
 
I have a model 640-1, and I rarely carry it with full power 357mag loads. More often than not, I carry +p 38 rounds, though, because the first shot is not always the deciding shot, so I'd rather carry something I can shoot accurately, and quickly. Having fired a 357mag and a 44mag indoors without hearing protection, I now do a lot of lip-reading to compensate for my substantial hearing loss. Firing one inside an automobile would probably lead to complete hearing loss and concussion grenade-like sensory impact. And try firing one while in a grappling situation with the gun against your side, face, or any part of you person for that matter. You may do more damage to yourself than the assailant does to you.

My brother's favorite gun is his 41mag Mountain Gun. For me it's a toss-up between my 45colt Mountain Gun and my 22-4 Thunder Ranch. When we shoot together, I can get three well placed rounds off with either the 45colt or the 45acp to one of his from the 41mag. 357mag rounds thru a J-frame are similar to full power 41mag rounds thru a Mountain Gun. Not too painful to shoot in a controled situation, and in limited doses, but if multiple shots in varying positions and varying environments are a possibility I would opt for the lower recoil, lower blast +p 38's, or even just plain old 38special.

If I could guarantee that should the need to use a handgun in self defense ever arise (God forbid), I would be outdoors, have hearing protection on, and not need to fire the weapon with the muzzle in very close proximity to any part of your body, while shooting from a modified weaver stance, and not need a second shot, I might pick a 357mag, or 44mag for my carry piece. Since these variables are seldom totally controlable, I defer to a cartridge that is effective without significant muzzle blast and recoil. I usually carry a 45acp revolver, but feel confident with a j-frame with 38special if the clothing makes a larger gun impractical.

I know many guys who are comfortable and affective with a 357 (in a J-frame) or any smaller magnum caliber for that matter, but that doesn't rule out the indoor affects, or the impact the muzzle and cylinder gap blast has on exposed or even covered flesh when fired against your body. In my experience, self defense situations are seldom comfortable, convenient, or even expected. If you are going to carry a firearm in case of such an event, it is a wise idea to consider and prepare for scenarios other than a timed shooting event at the local range. Those skills are valuable, but not always applicable. More often, it is an awkward, ugly event involving distances and positions that many never practice for. If it were all about one-shot stopping power I'd carry a 500s&w magnum derringer.

I like shooting the 357mag in an N-frame smith, or a Ruger Blackhawk with a 4-5/8" barrel. Both guns are rugged enough to endure the beating, and pleasant enough to not cause pain or nerve damage. My J-frame is convenient for summer carry due to it's light weight and compact size, but shooting it with full-power 357mag loads seems oddly masochistic to me, and likely to loosen the gun prematurely. Why bother?
 
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I purchased a S&W model 60 3 inch 357 magnum for my wife last year. Actually up until now she has only shot 38 rounds in it and she keeps Corbon DPX +P's in it. I actually got some 357 ammo and am going to take it out maybe even tommorrow and try it. If it's not to bad I am going to let her try it also.

Here is a good review on this very weapon. In the review, the author calls 357 rounds in this weapon as brisk but very manageable even in rapid fire.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/Model_60-15.htm
 
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Jonah71 - After shooting a box or two of .357mag 158 gr. wad cutters through my 4" Taurus Mod. 65, I don't feel the pain in the thumb joint from an old golf injury so much. I really do enjoy shooting that particular .357, and the pain medication really doesn't upset my stomach that much.

:scrutiny:


Hehee, you just ain't right.......
:rolleyes:
Kinda caught me off guard with that one. I like it.


ST

:)
 
The J-frame .357 models will shoot and hold up fine to a normal lifetime of use with .357 magnum ammo in the prescribed bullet weights.

That being said, they are not tack-driving target or competition type revolvers where a competitive shooter might shoot 5000 rounds per week of full house rounds . . . like what was happening back in the day of the old Bianchi Cup police revolver competition shooters. This wore out K-frames with light bullets like the hot 125 and 110 grain .357 ammo of the day.

No, a .357 snubbie is not intended to shoot a whole lot of practice ammo through on a daily basis. If one WAS to shoot hundreds of daily rounds, I'd recommend they load their own and shoot 148 grain wadcutter ammo in .38 spl.

Shooting hot .357 ammo in one of these pocket rockets WILL require a firm grip, proper mechanics AND a high (proper) hand hold. If so, the recoil will be manageable. However, as the wise old cop said, "If you don't have a flinch you WILL!"

I've shot nearly 1,000 handgun matches . . . with the requisite practice rounds to become proficient and maintain my skills. That being said . . . my practice ammo is mainly hand-loaded rounds I load for minimal recoil and stress on the guns AND my hands/wrists. I strongly recommend shooting wadcutter .38 Special target ammo in your snubbies for practice . . . you'll get better and not develop a flinch.

It is also a LOT cheaper to load your own!!! Frankly, if you end up shooting a LOT, you'll save enough money pretty fast . . . to buy another gun!!!
 
The .357 j- frame is more of a " Shock and Awe " weapon . It will handle the .357 round if you can. Shoot .38's at the range end with 10 rounds of .357 and it will all be good.

If shooting for fun get a much heavier gun.
My j-frame with 125 Remmington
Golden Sabers is a fine carry weapon. IMO.

3145038472_480d564175.jpg
 
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