Jaguars in AZ

[Beaker]

For those that wanted to know more about the jaguar situation...

I'll skip right to the end of the story and say that jaguars have been listed as an endangered species and the AZ Game and Fish commission is now actively working toward their conservation.

AZGF's jaguar page

Editorial from someone less than pleased

I'll point out that the guy above has his facts rather muddled to say the least, partly regarding the number of sightings and other indications of jaguar presence, but most markedly on the danger jaguars present to humans. Of all the big cats, jaguars are the least inclined to attack humans- he's probably in more danger from a cranky bobcat than he is from them.

Position from the conservationists pre-listing

More from the conservationists

The above indicates some of the bitterness on the side of the conservationists. Everybody got jerked around by the Feds while they tried to decide whose side they were on during this period.

Letter/position paper from the anti-USA jaguar conservation folks

I understand the position of the ranchers especially. I wouldn't want a several-hundred pound predator I wasn't allowed to so much as look crosseyed at hanging around my livestock either. However, from a strictly biological and historical perspective, the primary argument for their paper (that jaguars have been only an occasional vagrant to North America since the Neolithic) is wrong. Jaguars have always been less common in the northern part of their range than cougars, but that doesn't make them nonresident any more than cougars being less common than jaguars in the central portion of their shared range makes cougars nonresident in Central and South America. I don't know whether their research was poorly done or they simply chose to assume others wouldn't bother, but they are also wrong in their assertion that jaguars do not figure in the native culture of the Southwest- they just weren't worshipped as they were in Mesoamerican cultures. Their skins were quite important trade items.

I do agree that much more research and sensible planning is needed before anything so drastic as a reintroduction program is established, I just don't agree that jaguars were never resident and therefore their return is impossible for ecological reasons.

 

[St. Gunner]

Beaker,

Many landowners along the Rio Grande in the Valley here in Texas claim to have seen the big cats here. It seems the habitat would be ideal, the thick growth along the Rio Grande provides lots of boggy bottomlands filled with Cane and trees. The area attracts feral hogs in great numbers would would appear to be an excellent food source. I know I have seen tracks in South Texas that looked much to large to be a Mountain Lion. I have seen Ocealot on one occasion while calling coyotes and seen several of the smaller jagurundi(spelling on this and ocealot I am not sure on) while calling predators at night. The map on the AZ page seems to try and show that the jaguar isn't near Texas except near El Paso, I think somebody has their data flawed. I know the cats have been spotted in AZ, but I think they have been in Texas also, but I think nobody really reported it to anyone, simply because to do so would mean an influx of USFWS folks causing all sorts of problems.

 

[Art Eatman]

We live in a frustrating time. I grew up with farming and ranching. I've plowed behind a horse, before my grandfather bought an old Farmall 12 in 1944-ish. I've doctored screw worms and fixed fence and hauled hay and all that stuff. Heck, in 1946 I picked cotton for two cents a pound--not fun.

My family got burned out of the cow business when the central Texas "Big Dry" began in 1948.

So I think I have an undertanding and a sympathy for those in agri-bidness.

That said, I am of the opinion that most--not all--ranching efforts, west of a north-south line through central Texas is 'cause that's what folks want to do, not because it's really worthwhile. An awful lot of the land from that line, on west to California, is "plumb ruint" from abuse and misuse and overgrazing.

Remember, I live in a desert, and I've seen photos of the "before and after" the early days of livestock. I've travelled in criss-cross fashion through most all of the western states. The Tucson-Phoenix area is ruint. Sagebrush is a replacement growth, like creosote and lecheguilla, where livestock overgrazed the land--as in western Colorado, e.g.

Now, how to deal in equity with the folks who are ranching now? I dunno.

Emotionally, I support the reintroduction of various predator species. Intellectually? I'm ambivalent. If it's done, there absolutely must be protection of and accountability to those whose lives are affected. Errors must favor those who are there now. Without such a codification, I'm an "aginner".

Art

 

[Beaker]

The history and politics of Western rangelands is a textbook example of bureaucracy and poor political ideas (our nation's most intensive flirtation with socialism) at its worst. Policy, pushed by and meant to help ranchers, instead rewards them more for overgrazing the land as much as possible than it does for responsible stewardship. With accountability for abuse lying on the taxpayers as a whole instead of the ranchers using it, it's largely fallen victim to the "tragedy of the commons". For that matter, as conservation groups who tried to lease BLM land in the same manner as ranchers in order to leave it alone discovered, you cannot legally use the theoretically public land unless your express intent is to abuse it. Ruint land is not a side effect of policy: effectively it IS policy.

The hardest part of dealing fairly with ranchers comes when they effectively do not have a business unless they are allowed to continue destructive grazing on land that can longer support it. New England fishermen have been in a similar position- several stocks of groundfish collapsed, with predictable results for the fishermen, before reform was instituted.

Wildlife loses first, and then the people do. I really wish the difficulties and debacles that have arisen from attempts to reintroduce large predators would prod people into addressing the underlying problem causing the pressure on the ranchers and the pressure on the wildlife, but mostly it just sets stockmen and conservationists at each other's throats.

 

[Art Eatman]

St Gunner, my fist measures five inches across. There is a Handsome Stranger mountain lion that visits Resident Momma on a mountain near my house. When I put my fist down in his footprint, there is an inch of print outside my fist, all the way around.

Beaker, I'm truly aware of the tragedy of the commons. Over in Mexico in our area are "ejidos"--commons. They are overgrazed far worse than anything I've ever seen on this side of the river. In the local culture there, one's community standing is measured by the number of horses one owns. One horse eats as much as three cows.

Our private lands ranchers have discovered that the ad valorem school taxes must be paid, whether it rains or not. Heckuva note when they gotta borrow from the bank to pay the taxes to keep their land, during drouth times. So, when it rains, they overstock. That's why I tend to believe that raising livestock should be in the more eastern parts of the U.S. (In east Texas, they easily run one animal unit per acre. In far west Texas, they run the number of cattle per section [640 acres] as they get inches of rainfall.)

Thanks for the links. I'll check them out in the morning...

Art

 

[Beaker]

Art- sounds familiar. Did you know the Sahara desert and the Middle East used to be grassland and forest? The Sahara's abrupt transition from Serengeti-like bucolic bliss to hell desert was helped along by some climatic changes for Earth, but agriculture and massive overgrazing played a major role, especially in the Middle East. (If you ever wondered how many people and animals survived and thrived in such a barren place in the Bible, the answer is that at the time, it wasn't.) The trouble with the lessons of history is that it bores most folks to tears.

What I'd actually rather like to see would be grazing herds shifted to New England where old farms have become grassland and forest. It'd bolster rural economies there and shift the pressure to land that can take it better. Of course it'll never happen.

 

[Art Eatman]

Yeah, Beaker. Goats and firewood--and salt buildup from irrigation.

Art

 

[H&Hhunter]

Of all the big cats, jaguars are the least inclined to attack humans- he's probably in more danger from a cranky bobcat than he is from them.

Beaker while I completely agree with your premise that we are not in danger of being attacked by Jaguars it is due to the fact that there is a very small population of them in the US and Northern Mexico. And even if there was a good population of them it'd hardly be a factor.

In areas of Brazil where there are good numbers they have a reputation as being fierce and costly cattle killers and human attacks are far more common from a "tigre" than any other type of cat in the area. They can infact become quite agressive and dangerous once they've become a cattle killer.

Have you read Warner Glens account of his day with the Jaguar? Great pictures and a good story.

If it wasn't for this man and his hounds none of this would ever have happened.

There are many who wish he would have just kept his pictures to himself.

I'm still on the fence as far as going complete thermo nuclear on the protection of these cats in Az and NM. Due we actually have a population of them or just the odd cat passing through? No one has answered that question with any solid science yet.

 

[GinSlinger]

Of all the big cats, jaguars are the least inclined to attack humans...

Umm, Okay, I'll bite.

One of my very dear friends is in the eco-tourism industry. He is currently working in Ecuador, but has made many, many trips to the jungles of Southern Mexico. He has fist hand seen the effects of a jaguar attack on two men. On was killed and partially eaten when another man approached and was given a mauling before El Tigre fled. My friend blanched and became visably shaken when he told me the story (in reference to me commenting on the beauty of the jag). BTW, jaguars prefer to attack, not the neck, but rather the skull--thier massive jaws piercing into the brain.

The jaguar, however, has long been known not only to be a dangerous foe when itself attacked, but also now and then to become a man-eater. Therefore the instances of such attacks furnished me are of merely corroborative value.

http://www.bartleby.com/174/pages/page32.html

However, the jaguar is definitely a man-eater. The anthropologist Napoleon Chagnon who has studied the Yanomamo of the Venezuelan-Brazil border says that he was stalked by jaguars a number of times and, on one occasion, was nearly a meal for one which had come into the camp in the early hours of the morning. He reported that in August of 1990 a jaguar attacked a party of armed Yanomamo in a village he was studying and killed three of them. The jaguar dragged one of them off and ate most of him.

http://www.beautyworlds.com/jaguar.htm

Occasionally after having tasted human flesh, the jaguar becomes a confirmed man-eater.

http://73.1911encyclopedia.org/J/JA/JAGUAR.htm

Et al, I could go on.....


GinSlinger

 

[Beaker]

My point was not that jaguars don't attack humans, but compared to other large cats, they're not as likely to, which is still true. I didn't say there are no recorded jaguar attacks- just that, given the number of cats and the number of humans and the degree of contact, there are surprisingly few compared to, say, leopards and tigers. While there may be certain areas where a jaguar is much more likely to attack a human, just like there are certain areas where the normally retiring cougar is much more likely to attack a human, if the guy worried about being pounced by a jaguar has accepted the idea of sharing a zip code with cougars and bears, then he's worked up over nothing in particular.

All large predators are capable of attacking humans.

I also severely doubt there is such a thing as a breeding population of jaguars in the borderlands area, yet. The point of listing the animal would be to see if it will re-establish on its own, given the chance.

 

[GinSlinger]

Beaker,
Understood. It was not my point to claim that jaguars are any more dangerous than other cats, just that they (at least to me) seem to be more dangerous than cougars/mountain lions/pumas/panthers/whatever. I have read and been told several times that jaguars will stalk men in the jungle. Whether that is a predatory behavior, or curiosity, or simply (as one source says) "escorting you off their territory" I cannot comment on. The information supplied to me RE: jaguars would make me more concerned if they were in my area than if it was simply mountain lions. But I think that would be more fear from the lions getting run out of their territory and looking for "easy" kills.

On another note, I thought that the endangered species act was written to preserve indigenous species. How, therefore does it apply to a "foreign" species? What is that fish species that the US gubmint is poisoning lakes to eradicate?

GinSlinger

 

[Beaker]

Ginslinger: I've been interested in what makes a predator a man-eater for a long time, and based on the information I have available, I'm still less nervous of a jaguar than I would be of a cougar. (Not that they scare me either. I'm infinitely warier of bears than any American cat.) For example, cougars often "stalk" or "escort" people through their territory as well- it's just a lesser-reported trait than it is for jaguars. More than one hunter, hiker, or landowner has been unnerved to discover a set of tracks closely following his own through the snow, even though he never saw or otherwise sensed the cat's presence. I'm inclined to believe it's mostly curiosity; New World cats don't normally see humans as prey unless conditioned to, and all but the shyest of cats really are just that inquisitive as a general rule. As for interpredator competition, normally when cougars and jaguars inhabit the same range, the cougars move up- they're much better equipped as montane predators than jaguars, and can out-compete them there.

The thing that would characterize a jaguar as a native rather than invasive species in the eyes of the ESA is that, at one time, they WERE native. They used to range as far north as the Grand Canyon and as far west as Texas. They were never as numerous as cougars, and aren't quite as wily as they are, and thus hunting pressure in the Southwest from natives and Europeans alike rapidly eliminated them. Given that, jaguars shouldn't cause the problems an ordinary "invasive" species would, because the fauna of the region co-evolved with jaguars.

The fish species is the Snakehead, a voracious Chinese predator that reproduces quickly and drives out competition and prey alike, then moves to a new habitat by "walking".

 

[Art Eatman]

Instead of all this huffing and puffing and calling for the ESA, why not just declare the jaguar a game animal, and the season is closed?

In Texas, elk are hunted only by permit issued to a landowner. TP&WD doesn't issue any permits. Someday, if there are enough elk, this might change.

, Art

 

[H&Hhunter]

Instead of all this huffing and puffing and calling for the ESA, why not just declare the jaguar a game animal, and the season is closed?

Art,

That would make totaL SENSE AND WOULD COST NOTTHING! We're not going to have any of that on this web site as it isn't government approved!!!!

And another thing it wouldn't allow the eco nazi's to close anymore areas to the common man. Think of all the berkenstaked harry legged tree hugger babes they'll have notthing to fret over.

 

[Dr.Rob]

We had this discussion back on TFL, lets fire it back up.

Seen on Marty Stouffer (yeah I know he's bee accused of staging shots since , but...) a full grown spotted jaguar on film outside yuma, AZ. (late 70's)

Seen in National Geographic: pic of a jaguar accidently treed while cougar hunting. Geo did a big write up on proposed 'greenbelts' to allow cats to move up from Mexico. rancher who took the pic poses on rock where first pic was taken pretty far inside AZ.

Sonoran desert is a rainforest compared to other "deserts" wild deer, javalinas, hares, desert bighorn, not to mention antelope and feral goats roam this diverse eco system.

My take?

I think it would be a wonderful thing to see the world's third largest cat in the wild, (panthera onca) and in our American southwest. They used to be here, but then the land was different then. I also would hope I was armed and he didn't want me for lunch. Doubt the sonoran desert can support jaguars I'd guess they are moving north to get away from loss of habitat to the south, to survive here they have to be adaptive, and there is already a big cat (Felis concolor) the puma in the top niche in the eco system)

Arizona has a 'oops I treed a jaugar' rule in their big game book ie -please don't shoot it and report it to us time/place/sex/guess of wieght etc.

NM claims they don't exist so you can't get fined for shooting a mythical animal right?

WRONG. Jaguar pelts MUST have a CITES stamp or you can get in big trouble with the US Marshalls. Just try and convince those guys you didn't illegally import it.

As far as jaguar attacks.. supposedly thats the reason to sleep with your head towards the fire in central and S. America. if a cat grabs your foot you can scream and wake the others for help. If it grabs you by the head you are dead, and they won't come into the firelight.

I understand most hunters of 'El Tigre' use specialized dogs and a spear or shotgun. Capstick wrote a story about a jaguar hunter who did this. This hunter calimed that black jaguars had tails shorter than re. jags, and were likely a genetic offshoot, or a regional breeding population at one time since most black ones also had the short tails. He killed almost all his with a spear.

Would YOU take on a jaguar with a pointy stick?

 

[H&Hhunter]

Capstick wrote a story about a jaguar hunter who did this. This hunter calimed that black jaguars had tails shorter than re. jags, and were likely a genetic offshoot, or a regional breeding population at one time since most black ones also had the short tails. He killed almost all his with a spear.

If you get a chance read the book "Tigrero" an auto biography by Sasha Siemel (SP?) He was one of the few non natives to learn the art of spearing jaguar with only the assitance of a dog (one dog). And is the subject of Capsticks naratives.

A classic must read hunting/adventure book.

 

[Art Eatman]

I read that book when it first came out. I was still just a kid, and lemme tell ya: You could get nervous, "camping out" in your own back yard!

, Art

 

[Keith]

I think if THR members were allowed to write the rules on reintroduction of predators, we'd have wolves, grizzlies and jaguars back in the west without a lot of hate and discontent.

There's no reason these critters can't be listed as game animals to satisfy the hunters. With generous bag limits near range lands to satisfy ranchers. And complete protection in the parks to satisfy the granola crowd.

Keith

 

[Art Eatman]

From what I've seen, the problem with the granola crowd is their absolutism. There is no room in their emotional arguments for others' views to have importance.

"I want to continue to earn my living." is irrelevant to them, in their self-anointed righteousness...

Art

 

[AZTOY]

We have had a few jaguar sighting in Arivaca AZ. I never seen one or prints. But, most of the places in the MTS you can't get to. It would be easy for a animal to hide. I was also told that AZ Game and Fish have let some wolf free in the area.

Like DR.Rob seid,


If you see a jaguar AZ game and fish wants you to report it.

 

[Keith]

There are times... when I agree with the granola crowd, though for entirely different reasons.
If a man owns land and a predator comes on it and eats his sheep or cattle, he ought to be able to shoot it or trap it with no questions asked.
And that's the case in places like Texas where the land is largely in private hands.
In most of the west though, the land is leased and in many ways the ranchers "right to make a living" is totally subsidized by the taypayer - it's just welfare on a grand scale!
So, when I hear some rancher moaning about wolves or bears and demanding the gubmint "do something" to protect the cattle that he is using to destroy the public landscape, I take his complaints with a grain of salt.
Public lands belong to all of us. I might want to go cougar or bear hunting on that land and I don't want to pay some gubmint agency to poison or shoot them - or even trap and relocate them!
I think ranchers should have to take stock losses as part of the cost of using public lands.

Keith

 

[Beaker]

DEFINITELY agree with Keith re predator control on public lands.

I'd like to see the jaguar treated as the American Alligator has been- list it for a decade or so so it can recover numbers if it's going to, then de-list and reclassify as a game animal. Right now I simply don't think there's enough animals for an annual take to be sustainable, and few enough that BLM land ranchers shooting it whenever it comes near stock would be enough to prevent or severely retard recovery. (I grew up in Arizona. Without that public land, there aren't a whole lot of places for it to move through, and animals don't read maps.)

I also usually don't favor reintroduction efforts. As cougars moving eastward are proving, if the land is ready for a predator to move back in and there's a corridor open to it, it'll do it on its own with no direct meddling required.

 

[Dr.Rob]

hehehe

Lions and Tigers and Bears oh my!

Welcome to the THR's wild america theme park!

Fly fish alongside grizzlybears! Picnic with jaguars! Sunbathe with a Puma! gather honey from african killer bees (nah, scratch that one), sing along with your friendly wolf pack!

I'd love it.

Really I would.

OH btw, wolves are extinct in Colorado but not Wyoming. Ditto for Wolverines. Theydon't know where the border is because I've seen a wolverine and found a den sight (point your rifle at the hole and back away slowwwwwwly) and I am positive I've seen wolf tracks. Not ONE, but a dozen or do animals all running around together, BIG tracks, unlikely to be feral dogs, way to big to be coyote. Another hunter I know swears he saw a "red wolf" while hunting the same area (Area8) a few years back. Pretty sure my brother and I spooked a wolf off a logging road two years ago. GIANT dog shaped track.. 12 FEET apart. I've never seen a domestic dog, spooked or not that could leap that far. (where I hunt in area 8 I'm 2 miles from the Wyoming border)

 

[Keith]

Dr. Rob,

Wolves in some areas of Alaska are known to move three and four hundred miles on a regular circuit. Smaller groups will break off the main pack and move even further to establish new territories.
It would surprise me if there WEREN'T wolves in neighboring states by now. Once they get established they'll be there forever.

Keith

 

[Keith]

Here's an example in todays news. Ignore the gnashing and wailing of teeth about the fate of the poor coyotes, but pay attention when they note that this practice costs hundreds of dollars per coyote killed! Why in the hell should WE pay for this nonsense!

Predator-control crashes spark outcry
DANGEROUS: Green group says flights are costly and ineffective.

By MATT GOURAS
The Associated Press

(Published: August 8, 2003)
HELENA, Mont. -- An environmental group that opposes aerial hunting of coyotes and other predators is calling for a ban on the practice after a string of crashes of aircraft participating in the hunts.

Opponents say the crashes, including two this summer in Montana that injured four people, prove the practice is dangerous.

But operators of such flights, including ranchers and the U.S. Department of Agriculture, say they are a safe means of controlling nuisance animals.

The USDA is the largest operator of such flights through its Wildlife Services predator control program. It has 18 of its own aircraft and also hires planes.

The National Transportation Safety Board is still investigating the two Montana crashes.

One occurred on July 1 near Havre in north-central Montana when the small plane apparently lost airspeed and crashed while flying close to the ground, the NTSB said in an initial report. Both the pilot and the gunner were seriously injured.

In June, another predator control flight crashed near Big Timber, in south-central Montana. The USDA helicopter lost power while maneuvering, according to an NTSB initial report. The pilot and gunner suffered minor injuries.

The NTSB also is investigating the crash of a federal predator control flight in Ely, Nev., last month. Neither occupant was injured.

The environmental group Sinapu, based in Boulder, Colo., said it has documented 21 crashes involving federal predator control flights since 1989. They include cases of aircraft hitting trees and power lines and even instances in which the gunner accidentally shot the aircraft.

"Recent crashes that involved shooters who target wildlife from aircraft underscore the necessity of ending this practice," said Wendy Keefover-Ring, with Sinapu's carnivore protection program.

Her group wants the practice banned, saying the USDA is not forthcoming about the cost, effectiveness or safety of the program.

Steve McCreary, an investigator with the NTSB, said flying close to the ground and firing a gun from a plane do pose special safety risks. But he said it is unclear whether the safety record of such flights is any better or worse than general aviation.

"The safety board, from that perspective, is not the place to go," he said. "It would be like going to the dump to find out how many containers of ice cream go bad, because all of them at the dump go bad."

The Department of Agriculture said it does not keep statistics on the safety record of predator control flights, nor could it immediately confirm whether Sinapu's figures were accurate.

Dan Parry, a spokesman for the USDA, said occasional mechanical failures or pilot error are bound to happen during the thousands of flights the agency conducts or contracts each year.

However, he said, the agency can document that losses to livestock caused by coyotes decreased 7 percent when predator flights were used.

Steve Pilcher, executive vice president of the Montana Stockgrowers Association, said he thinks environmentalists are simply using the plane crashes as a ruse to end the practice of killing predators.

"Like any activity, there is a certain amount of risk attached to it," he said of the flights. "It's not any more dangerous than driving a car."

But Keefover-Ring said the flights cost taxpayers hundreds of dollars for every coyote killed.

"It's very expensive -- and it's the federal government killing the public's wildlife," she said.

In February, a privately owned plane crashed while being used to hunt coyotes illegally over Crow tribal land near Garryowen. The pilot was killed, and the surviving passenger faces federal and tribal wildlife charges.