Judge Opinions

[Dnaltrop]

@ Nonseven

The BFR is supposedly properly choked for precisely the range you're detailing, I was seriously looking at them and instead picked up a Schofield replica because it tugged at the "want" monster. Nice choice though.

The Judge does indeed have a crappy spray, but the penetration is improving as manufacturers design more rounds specifically for the Judge. They have good advertising... and a LOT of them are being sold today.

Inside of 10 feet if it was the only thing at hand, sure... but my experience with Taurus is one fantastic .357, one disturbingly bad nearly-new .22 tracker( Under 200 rounds, 4th trip back for the same problem) , and a rental 1911 that wouldn't feed.

I will admit, the Circuit Judge is in the corner of my vision, but a revolver-rifle falls into the "Weird gun" category, and it was light enough to handle one handed.

But unless I see, hold, and Shoot more Taurii, the score is 66% bad, 33% good, I can't justify investing in one when I can spend a bit more and get other guns I already trust from experience. (Star 9mm, C&R"s, etc etc)

 

[Warp]

I think the problem people have is they see the Judge as a compromise. However, all handguns are a compromise. The difference is that I think of a standard pistol, like say a 1911, a Glock, or a wheelgun as a substitute for a rifle. The Judge is a substitute for a shotgun. It's not a hybrid between a handgun and a shotgun anymore than a S&W 627 is a hybrid between a Glock and a Remington 700.

The Judge fanatics will say that the Judge is perfect for anything, and I'd say they're wrong. It definitely has its downsides.
The Judge naysayers will say that because the judge is a compromise, it's not worth it.

I'm in the middle of the road. The Judge is a tool, much like any other gun. At short range, it will accurately put 3-5 holes in the target (depending on which load of 000 you use) for high recoil. So, you have lots of holes, slightly less accurate shot placement (but honestly, how many of you will hit on a dime exactly where the most vulnerable part of an assailant is in an SD situation? a few inches left or right probably won't make a difference), and a bit more kick. It's a tradeoff, yes, but it does have some advantages.

In a place like a car or a small condo, the Judge would be my first choice for a handgun. In a place like on the street or in a larger building, yeah I'd want something that has a bit more accuracy.

The advantage of a handgun are that it can be carried on your person, potentially concealed, with very little effort. Another major advantage is that it can easily be operated with one hand.

The size of these fad .410 capable handguns is a serious drawback vs the established firearms. Seriously, look at how big it is and how LooooonG that cylinder is. It's a 5 shot revolver. That's it. It needn't be so big. I'd rather carry my 4" Ruger GP100, hands down

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

So it wont kill an attacker beyond 10 feet, but it WILL kill his kids after it travels down the hallway, thru the wall and THEN hits his kids?

The pellets still have plenty of killing power just that they spread out too much that you can easily miss the attacker with some of them and those can go flying anywhere.

 

[nonseven]

The BFR is supposedly properly choked for precisely the range you're detailing, I was seriously looking at them and instead picked up a Schofield replica because it tugged at the "want" monster. Nice choice though.

The 7 1/2" barrel BFR is the one with the choke - same choke as the Thompson single shot 45/410. You have to shoot one of these to really understand what a 410 shell can do in a handgun. Amazing.

But with the 00 or 000 buckshot loads, like the 2 1/2" Federal 000 4 pellet load, these are coming out of the barrel single-file, and I've found the choke doesn't improve it much. So an un-choked gun like the Judge or Governor holds a pretty tight pattern with these loads, somethink like less than 12" at 25 ft or so. Beyond that, justifiable self-defense is questionable unless they are already shooting at you. After much shooting and chronographing these loads, I've become convinced that they may in fact have some merit in a self defense situation if you understand the limitations.

 

[Skribs]

The advantage of a handgun are that it can be carried on your person, potentially concealed, with very little effort.

The advantage of a handgun in this sense is that they are smaller than a long gun. Which will fit in my handgun safe on my desk, a 12-gauge pump or a Judge? Which will fit in that cutout book? Which will fit in the console of your car? Yes, it may be bigger than some handguns, but then I can say "if you want concealed, why does anyone buy a G17 over a G26" or "why does anyone buy a GP100 over an LCR?" For the situations I've mentioned - HD or car defense, the Judge should fit into your storage method of choice, and be easier to access than the long gun in the closet/trunk.

Another major advantage is that it can easily be operated with one hand.

And the Judge can't?

 

[GEM]

25 ft. There is easily that distance across the diagonal of homes with open floor plans.

I don't want to shoot something that has an inherent 12" inaccuracy. I have no idea if I would have to make a shot that might have a loved nearby or a window.

Also, the idea that a shot at 25 ft is not justifiable is just baloney. Ever here of the Tueller Drill and recent suggestions is that the 21 ft rule is conservative.

Look, people are enamoured by the Judge being a superweapon and having said that, are resistant to logic.

Yes, it's a gun and will shoot someone. Do trained people recommend it - as far as I know - I don't know a reputable trainer that regards it as a first choice. It's seductive for a newbie watching watermelons explode in a commercial. The young lady in the parking garage would be better served with a Glock 26 and a good course rather than a Judge.

 

[Skribs]

Ever here of the Tueller Drill and recent suggestions is that the 21 ft rule is conservative.

That drill is based on the time it takes someone to get to you. If they're still quite far away I wouldn't be willing to shoot yet. If your gun is already pointed at the target, 20 feet is still a safe distance away.

 

[GEM]

If a intruder/person is beyond 21 ft with an edged weapon or any weapon in your home and you choose to have a conversation after discerning the threat - go ahead.

I regard the distance as an advantage for my safety.

The rule doesn't say - OH, here is the magic line - Now it is legally justified to shoot if he or she crossed it. It is that if you haven't drawn by 21 ft (and you haven't trained to deal with such within the radius), you are in trouble.

25 feet is not that far in your house and I still argue at that distance I want the rounds to go where I aim and not where some gimmick gun spreads them.

You are not in trouble in most states if you face an armed intruder in your home at normal house distances and you shoot. To say otherwise is still baloney.

 

[Skribs]

Are you planning on clearing your house, or just using the handgun to get to the long gun to bunker down in your safe room (or using the handgun to bunker down in your safe room). At my condo, I'll have a handgun within reach of the bed and a long gun in the closet in that room. Furthest distance I'd shoot...maybe 10-12 feet.

At my parent's house, it's a different story, but even then there's only 2 points where they might have a shot over 20 feet, and that's only if the attacker is at a specific place at the time when they're at the farthest corner.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Does anyone have any comparisons of Judge loadings vs. standard handgun rounds in ballestic gel? I want to see what this gun is capable of exactly.

Are you planning on clearing your house, or just using the handgun to get to the long gun to bunker down in your safe room (or using the handgun to bunker down in your safe room). At my condo, I'll have a handgun within reach of the bed and a long gun in the closet in that room. Furthest distance I'd shoot...maybe 10-12 feet.

Why not leave the shotgun next to your bed at night?

 

[GEM]

Given that you aren't going to know where others are in the house, when the trouble arrives - saying you are going to fight to long gun is nice cliches.

Maybe you have to play the hand you got - downstairs - if the main room is upstairs. Bye, wife and kid - play with the psycho. Daddy is going to go upstairs or the other room for the long arm. Oh, if I get the shotgun, hope I can make the hostage rescue shot. Fun in training, fun with your kid with a shot pattern of 00 at a distance.

So do you tote a long gun around each room? No, you probably carry a handgun.

If so, and you don't live in a small box - I see NO real advantage of a handgun of limited capacity, no special stopping powers and inherent inaccuracy at a reasonable distance.

Small rooms, guys wearing watermelons on their heads for a disguise - Gotta Go with a Judge.

Sure, if it was all I had - use it. If I only had my Buckmark - use it. But as a free will choice - nope.

 

[nonseven]

My opinion about handgun stopping power changed after I read that FBI study on the subject. What I got out of it was:

1. Most people are stopped (and literally fall down) from the psychological effect of being shot.

2. Barring #1, aggressors are stopped either by a disabling hit to the central nervous system (head or spine), or

3. Loss of consciousness from blood loss from another wound. There is no "knock-down" effect barring #1 or #2 with a handgun cartridge.


"Now here comes the Judge" which is going to work for #1 because lesser calibers like say, 32 auto also work in this situation. However with small calibers like 22lr or 25 auto there are a surprising number of people who don't realize they've been shot. So, a 45 auto or 4 pellets of 000 buck are going to do a better job here.


In the case of #2, in a close-range defense situation, my feeling is that the 000 buckshot loads increase your chances of success for most shooters. I don't know how many of us are capable of a head or spine shot with a single projectile in a high-stress situation on a rapidly moving target, but I don't count myself as one of those. Probably not with the Judge either but based on my practice and experience with these guns, I'm much more likely to do it with a 000 shell. So far there are very few real-life reports of the effectiveness of the buckshot loads from a Judge on humans, but there was one case posted on this forum of a single shot stop, and it appeared that the assailant was hit in the head with a buckshot pellet.

Now for #3 - loss of blood - If the first 2 have failed then time for an aggressor to become unconscious may seem like a very long time during a gun fight. You've already missed #1 and #2 which are the fast ways. You have to hit a major artery/major organ at least once and preferably more than once. How will the Judge do here, compared to let's say a single projectile per shot from a 45 auto?

I included two photos of a target shot from a S&W Governor, both at 20 ft. One is two shots with the Federal 000 buckshot load, the other is a single shot from the Winchester 3-disk PDX load. The ruler in both photos is 6" long.
My aiming point is the X between the four bullseyes. All 8 pellets from the two Federal shells are in a group of about 4 inches. The single shot from the PDX1 is about an inch grouping of the 3 disks.

I'm not yet convinced on the penetration of the PDX1 round, but I believe the Federal 000 penetration is good.

So, you be the Judge. At this point, my opinion is that the Federal rounds may not be so bad for #3.

 

[oldfool]

just curious...which of those (8) 4" target bulleyes was the CNS POI supposed to be ?
(or the snakes head, if you prefer)
just kidding, just kidding..

hint, take a 6" ruler and hold one end of it on your nose
(in front of a mirror, and check that 4" or better distance mark, do same starting from your adam's apple or heart mark, etc.)
ay, there's the rub, most anything penetrates an ear lobe real well

You made some great points there, nonseven
but at 20 feet and closing, with deadly weapon and intent, counting on #3 bleedout is a lost cause, friend, any caliber
choose whatever you use, but shoot a little faster
(and if this is for "at home", a 12 gauge shell holds a lot more of them 000, you know)

PS
we going for 200 posts on this round folks ?

correction -
whoops, he did say that he chose in-between for "X" POA.. not bad
but most anybody can group that well at <7 yards on a standing still non-aggressive target, and most any centerfire round will penetrate whatever a 000 pellet will
and same center of group hit with just one anything 38 to 50 caliber would do same or better
but you be da' Judge of that
and if you expect 'em to bleed out, best hope you have legit reason to open fire before they close to 20 feet

 

[oldfool]

really folks, it do get too mean spirited, it do, but I just don't get the stretch efforts some put out there to justify da' Judge as somehow better
(or even "as good as")

it can work, within limitations, but everything has limitations, and four pellets of 000 have more limitations than a whole lot of "other"
those disk loads may penetrate, but 45 acp, 357 mag, and a bunch of others do, proven track record

it's a too oversized, heavy 5-shot revolver with a too short barrel, even with 45LC loads

one-shot-stops happen for a lot of reasons, but CNS one-hit-kills under gunfight stress are far more luck than anything else, even for the best of the best, when even IPDA winning split times might very well not deliver CNS stops

bleed out is wishful thinking at a few feet (and fewer seconds)

in-the-car and being attacked... the shot is from the driver seat to the passenger window; it ain't even a measly 10 feet. The average width of a 2-lane highway lane is eleven feet with room to spare for cars going in opposite directions. If you cannot hit the passenger window with any handgun whilst sitting in the drivers seat, you need something more than buckshot for help, no kidding.

a snubbie barrel hand shotgun in 410 for a newbie, or someone who is unwilling to practice with some/any centerfire caliber handgun, is going to make magic happen... get real

snakes, snakes, snakes
yes it can kill snakes... as in better than what ???

no, shotshells do not "clear hallways" like hand grenades, not in 12 or 10 gauge, much less in 410, much less in 410 000x4

If you can handle the stress and make the shot within 2" of POA center, as in nonseven's target #2, you will do better than most (with anything you use). If you really think one disk load out of a 410 shell will stop 'em quicker than one same hit with a 9 or 38 or 44 or 45, go for it. If they be trying to kill you from 20 yards instead of 20 feet, you can always wait until they get closer ?

I live in a very modest size ordinary house, but if they crawl in the far end window with intent to come down the "center aisle" (a well framed target opportunity twice enroute) with a weapon in hand, they be 60 feet, 20 yards, from my bedroom door, not 5 or 10 feet, and I won't be throwing mini-frisbees at 'em, but that's just me. YMMV

hey, if it's fun, it's fun
if it works, use it
but quit trying to pretend it's magic
new & improved... neither... not in previous incarnations and not now

 

[NM Mountainman]

I can imagine that the 000 buck loads could be effective at short range. If you can afford a lot of guns, why not get a Judge to play around with? If your gun budget is limited, and you don't want to carry a bulky handgun, a 7 shot .357 revolver with 3" or 4" barrel will be more versatile in more situations.

 

[Apple a Day]

Pattern size doesn't mean much if it fails to penetrate.
I've actually tested a Judge (Ultra Lite 3" bbl.) and as a self-defense weapon I'd give it an F-.
A friend of mine was carrying one and I was thinking about getting one so I convinced him to come with me to the range. I lugged along some old textbooks. I've shot books with several different calibers to compare penetration. I'f you're interested in the full list do a search. Here's a very short sample for comparison:
Winchester 9x19mm, 115 grain HP +P went through the cover and ~500 pages from 25 yrds.
.410 000 buckshot from a 23" bbl went ~810 pages at 15 yards

I shot 00 buckshot, PDX-1 rounds, and #6 shot from the Judge and THEY ALL FAILED TO PENETRATE THROUGH THE FRONT COVER OF THE BOOK at 15 yards. After actually seeing how poorly it did with .410 shells I'd stick to the hottest .45 LC ammo I could find (assuming I was stuck with a Judge already). Otherwise, I'd spend the $ on something more traditional.

 

[stolivar]

at 7 yards (21 feet)

I get around 3 inches with the federal premium 000. At 15 yards it is about 6 to 7 inches with the Governor.


steve

 

[Kiln]

Pattern size doesn't mean much if it fails to penetrate.
I've actually tested a Judge (Ultra Lite 3" bbl.) and as a self-defense weapon I'd give it an F-.
A friend of mine was carrying one and I was thinking about getting one so I convinced him to come with me to the range. I lugged along some old textbooks. I've shot books with several different calibers to compare penetration. I'f you're interested in the full list do a search. Here's a very short sample for comparison:
Winchester 9x19mm, 115 grain HP +P went through the cover and ~500 pages from 25 yrds.
.410 000 buckshot from a 23" bbl went ~810 pages at 15 yards

I shot 00 buckshot, PDX-1 rounds, and #6 shot from the Judge and THEY ALL FAILED TO PENETRATE THROUGH THE FRONT COVER OF THE BOOK at 15 yards. After actually seeing how poorly it did with .410 shells I'd stick to the hottest .45 LC ammo I could find (assuming I was stuck with a Judge already). Otherwise, I'd spend the $ on something more traditional.

I'm interested in this. I'm going to do some phonebook tests with my .410 derringer next time I go out. I don't really rely on it for defense but I do load it with PDX-1 as a secondary because it claims to be a half decent defensive round from a short barrel.

 

[Apple a Day]

Here's a link to my previous thread (with the pic's of the target book).
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=615359&highlight=Judge

Note: the rounds that penetrated in the pic were the .45 LC which penetrated ~270 pages for comparison.
Kiln, please, post pictures when you do! I'd love to see more testing.
One of these days I'm going to stop being so cheap and buy some ballistic gel.

 

[Kiln]

Here's a link to my previous thread (with the pic's of the target book).
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=615359&highlight=Judge

Note: the rounds that penetrated in the pic were the .45 LC which penetrated ~270 pages for comparison.
Kiln, please, post pictures when you do! I'd love to see more testing.
One of these days I'm going to stop being so cheap and buy some ballistic gel.

You should wet the book next time and see how it compares. I always soak mine with water before firing just for kicks...I'm just curious which one penetrates better between wet and dry books, there's no real scientific reason though.

 

[Fatelvis]

The Judge? Not a good shotgun, not a good handgun

I agree. When I first saw the commercial showing it, I just thought "why?" And, besides, it's made by Taurus....

 

[V1ROT8]

The Black Friday sales got me and I purchased a Taurus Judge Public Defender model. Price was $369.95. Was amazed at the number being sold. Almost 100 before noon. Now, have shot this Judge and it works as advertised. Would not carry this weapon but it will be available to use in our home. Tried both the Remington and the Federal 410 personal defense rounds and was very pleased.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Perhaps this comment doesn't belong here, but...

I handled a Circuit Judge revolving rifle a while back. (There will be no Judge handguns sold in MA.) Other than the novelty, it didn't grab me.

However, I just got a chance to handle a Governor. Light weight (scandium alloy frame with titanium pins), tritium front sight, available CT laser grip, ability to use .45ACP in clips (2-shot, half- and full-moon)...

I can understand someone not liking the concept of a handgun shooting .410. But if you accept the concept for whatever application, this is a well thought-out gun.

YMMV

 

[khegglie]

I want to cite Skribs for a valiant effort here!!

 

[Prosser]

I watched a gunsmith check 3 guns, Judges, new from the factory. Two were ok. The third had a bent ejector rod, and getting it straight took awhile. Gun wouldn't fire or work out of the box.