Taurus Judge or Public defender. opinions??

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the .410 is already not exactly confidence inspiring for SD as shotgun shells go, and that's out of a shotgun. When you kill any velocity it might have by putting it in a short barrel revolver, it becomes even less so. Penetration is terribly lacking, shot spreads out too quickly for useful SD, it leaves the 'donut hole' in the pattern so that you ensure that the one thing you are aiming at is the one thing that is not hit. But, because of great marketing, the uneducated see it as a way to have 'shotgun power in a handgun,' thereby making it the ultimate SD gun. Oh, and if you are going to load it with .45LC (the best way to actually make it a good SD gun) then you might as well just buy a real .45LC revolver because it'll have better accuracy.
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I would have posted this... so +1.
 
I've only fired one once, with both 410 and 45lc. As has been said the .410 has no real business in a handgun. The pattern was horrible. And the 45lc groups where just as bad, and I love the 45lc round. I guess I could see if you where standing 6 feet or less from an attacker, but if I was less then 6 feet I'd rather have a knife never going to get a shot off that quick.
 
Someone mentioned hereTaurus's boast about judges that tote them in their underwear or something. I remember when I first saw an ad for The Judge; the company was already talking about all the armed judges. It wasn't really so many years ago. Let's say you've got a mixed load in the cylinder and by chance (unlike me) you know which round is best for a particular situation. Fortunately, you remember the order in which you loaded them so you open the cylinder, turn it to get the correct round under the hammer, and ultimately defend yourself if yu're still standing.

I, too, have nothing for or against Taurus. That product does seem gimmicky to me. I was in a very reputable gun shop in Manassas, Virginia, that isn't known for over-the-rainbow pricing. They had one in--perhaps indicative of something--their consignment cabinet. I don't remember the price but it did seem to me very high given its lack of complexity. I was buying a new S&W Airlight .38 Special and it was much less expensive than the consignment Judge.
 
a knife??...
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Yeah. Struck me odd too. A Judge may not be everything it's marketed to be, but I'll take the thing that goes boom five times.

Les
 
It was silly when MIL Inc. called it the "Thunder 5". "Judge" isn't any better (although the Judge isn't as ugly as the old Thunder 5 was)

The Judge is really only useful against snakes, otherwise stick with a J-Frame .357mag (or the Taurus equivalent if you like...I think they call it the "605"). For that matter a J-Frame loaded up with shot shell ammo will be just as effective on the snakes.

Unless of course you just want something for fun, in which case I guess I could see the fun aspect of the Judge (especially if you're like a pumpkin farmer and have lots of large melons laying around for the plinking).
 
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wrs840 said:
I don't currently own a .357 or .44 that I'm willing to scuff-up while doing farm work. I plan to remedy that, probably with the purchase of a Taurus Tracker model 44C 44mag blue 4" ported adj sight 5-shot. Then I'll likely sell one of the Judges, likely the steel one, which is still as new, fired maybe 50 rounds.

Les
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Good choice of a new pistol. My friend has one and we took it to the range and enjoyed it. Also, I know a policeman who carries one.

Snakepit
 
I do not think the Thunder Five was made by Taurus but by a company called MIL. INC in South Florida from 1992-1998. I still have a Thunder Five brochure some where in my collection. You are right that the Judge is not as ugly as the Thunder Five. It was a good brush gun.
 
Didn't the dim-witted tag-along soldier they called "Vig" in the "Three Kings" movie carry the "Thunder 5" version of what now sells as "The Judge?"

thunderfive-3.jpg

TROY
It's cool, no one's gonna hurt you --

Vig whips out his big Thunder 5 pistol and points it in their faces.

VIG
Did you rape and torture anybody in Kuwait, Abdul?

The Iraqis wail for mercy. Troy pushes Vig's pistol away.

TROY
You're making them all hysterical...

VIG
I'm trying to git him to obey the spirit of things but he won't take his rags off.

TROY
(leans down)
Sir? We need you to disrobe like all the other towel heads, OK?

The Officer does not move, Troy punches his head once. Vig
and Walter forcibly pull the Iraqi Officer's pants off. Troy
takes out a bottle of aspirin, eats two.

VIG
Whoa, it's a freaky thing, Troy.

Vig points to the Officer's bare buttocks, where a rolled up
piece of paper is sticking out --

TROY
There's a document in that guy's ass, Conrad.

VIG
That's the freaky thing.

WALTER
Do you think he ate it?

TROY
It wouldn't come out perfect like that if he ate it.

Troy pulls out a latex glove out of his pocket.

TROY
Go get it, Private.

IRAQI OFFICER
Hasa man timal!

The Officer screams in protest and is forcibly subdued by
Walter as Vig, wearing the glove, slowly pulls the rolled up,
greasy paper from the Officer's ass -- Troy looks disgusted.

TROY
Open it up.

VIG
You only gave me one glove.

TROY
I'm sorry I don't have another, but you gotta open it up. That's how the chain of command works...
 
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Zundfolge said:
Unless of course you just want something for fun, in which case I guess I could see the fun aspect of the Judge (especially if you're like a pumpkin farmer and have lots of large melons laying around for the plinking).
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Or maybe you could get a hold of some .410 flares to help justify it as a survival gun.

FIVETWOSEVEN said:
jones carried a webley revolver
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title=Indiana_Jones_and_the_Last_Crusade
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Not in the first movie (the one being referenced):
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title=Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark

It was probably chambered in the .455 Webley caliber, but it was definitely a Smith & Wesson.
 
people pan the judge because its popular and not made by ruger or smith n wesson.

taurus has never made any claims it was made for target shooting. yes after practicing you CAN hit targets at reasonable ranges. It was made for get this, short range defensive work.
 
people pan the judge because its popular and not made by ruger or smith n wesson.
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Not me. As an experienced owner of two Judges (back up and read in this thread if you wish) I have simply come to the conclusion that it doesn't do shotshell work any better than a CCI 38/357 shotshell on Copperheads at ten feet (about all a Judge-deployed 410 shell is good for), and is a compromised format (accuracy-wise) to try to shoot .45 Colt through. I'd like to be able to routinely hit a coyote-head size target at 75 feet, and the Judge firing .45 colt is not really up to that task. I'd rather be carrying a 4"bbl .38sp or .357 (with a couple of shotshells in my pocket for snakes). Just an honest opinion gained by using it for a year now.

Les
 
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Nicodemus38 said:
people pan the judge because its popular and not made by ruger or smith n wesson.
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On the contrary, I think that most people in forums such as this one pan it because it's popular and so many of its owners seem to believe that they're getting the power of a full-sized shotgun in a short-barreled handgun, which simply isn't so. The theory is that the public must be terribly misinformed because a gun that fills so narrow a niche in capability probably should not be nearly as popular as it is. I agree and find it easy to believe that many--though certainly not all--people are fooling themselves, having talked to many owners about it on YouTube and other places. By repeatedly quoting ballistics based on 18+" shotgun barrels, they prove the theory all by themselves.

Nicodemus38 said:
taurus has never made any claims it was made for target shooting. yes after practicing you CAN hit targets at reasonable ranges. It was made for get this, short range defensive work.
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The latter is actually the main problem with The Judge. With its short barrel lengths the most effective self-defense caliber it can use is .45 LC. This means that it has no advantage over regular revolvers chambered in .45 LC or something equally effective, and has several disadvantages as a result of having to accommodate .410 shotshells. In short, what is really the point of The Judge aside from being a novelty item? When high popularity is the result of widespread hype, it's fair to say that this irks many forum members, definitely. Perhaps this is not entirely fair to those who are knowledgeable and like The Judge because of its novelty, or those who may actually have a legitimate need for its capabilities, but it's hard to accept the rampant success of hype.
 
people pan the judge because its popular and not made by ruger or smith n wesson.
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No, people pan the judge because its a goofy gimick that too many people think is as good (or better) for use as a primary self defense gun as a J frame type revolver.

A Taurus, Charter or Rossi snubby would ALL be better CCW pieces for typical self defense use.

Certainly it'll do the trick in a pinch, but its a giant, bulky piece chambered in a weak shotgun caliber or in a very potent revolver caliber (.45 colt) but instead of pushing the .45 bullet down a 4" barrel you let it rattle along in an unrifled extra long cylinder and then it hits the forcing cone before being spun down a short barrel. I can't see how this is anywhere as good as a revolver actually built around .45 Colt.

Actually considering the bulk of the Judge, you're better off with a K or L frame sized revolver with a 4" barrel.

Anyway, the Judge is a novelty ... nothing wrong with that, but lets not pretend its something more.
 
"Nice video, how far away was the target?"

It was maybe 20 feet. I'm not sure. I can say that the gun is pretty accurate at personal defense distances with 45LC.

Another poster referenced the 410 shell having no business in a revolver. Point taken with regular shells, but with the new Personal Defense loads, they actually do a very tight pattern out to 20/25 feet. I have not tested beyond that. But the regular shells splay shot so badly that you could actually miss someone 7 to 10 feet away with them.
 
Another poster referenced the 410 shell having no business in a revolver. Point taken with regular shells, but with the new Personal Defense loads, they actually do a very tight pattern out to 20/25 feet....
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No offense intended, but which "new Personal Defense loads" are you referencing here? The "Federal .410 Handgun Personal Defense" loads I bought in #4 don't pattern any better at ten feet than "regular" 410 shells I've shot through my Judge. What does "very tight pattern out to 20/25 feet" mean? I'm getting an 8" pattern at 10 feet...

Les
 
Winchester Ammunition announced two new loads designed for the Taurus Judge revolvers: one a .45 Colt load and the other a .410 shot shell load. Both new loadings are marketed under the Winchester Supreme Elite PDX1 line. The .45 Colt cartridge has a 225 grain bonded jacket hollow point that was specifically designed for the Judge. The new .410 shell has three plated "Defense Disc" projectiles approximately .380 in diamenter and 12 plated BB's. The shot shells are reduced recoil loads and provide personal protection load for short range engagement with the performance needed to stop threats. Due out February 2010.
There is also going to be a PDX1 in 12 Guage. It will have 3 Grex buffered 00 plated buckshot on top of a 1 oz rifled slug. Due out in March 2010.
This information came from a Winchester announcement.
Sounds like there is a continuing effort to work on both the Judge and the 12 guage for Personal Defense.

Snakepit
 
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"what does very tight pattern out to 20/25 feet mean?".

Ok, you got me for using the modifier "very" in front of the word tight. Generally, the pattern is small enough that 3 of the 4 pellets would hit a human at 20 feet. I actually can spin that little target more than 60 percent of the time by aiming at the top metal disk. My gun is the 3" barrel version and perhaps it's just unique enough to enjoy Federal's new load.

The first judge I shot was a 5" barrel model which is no longer manufactured and it was really nice with 45LC. I was shooting at a burm 60 feet away and could not tell where any shot pellets hit (generally), but the 45 LC rounds were very predictable. This was the reason I decided to get the judge in the first place.

I'm basically a 9mm semi auto guy and only have 2 revolvers, but I really like the Judge. It's a very entertaining gun to shoot and at 7 or 8 feet would tear someone up pretty bad.

Not only do I find it functional and fun to shoot, it's just plain good looking! (give me a break, i'm 59 years old and if I want to like an ugly gun, i'm going to).
 
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Lots of interesting stuff here. SOunds like the Judge is a niche gun & a gimmicky kinda gun. I have a friend that is kinda interested in one too, and he would be into the concept of it.
 
give me a break, i'm 59 years old and if I want to like an ugly gun, i'm going to
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Fair enough. You know what they say about beauty being in the eyes of the beholder. :)

Quote:
the .410 is already not exactly confidence inspiring for SD as shotgun shells go, and that's out of a shotgun. When you kill any velocity it might have by putting it in a short barrel revolver, it becomes even less so. Penetration is terribly lacking, shot spreads out too quickly for useful SD, it leaves the 'donut hole' in the pattern so that you ensure that the one thing you are aiming at is the one thing that is not hit. But, because of great marketing, the uneducated see it as a way to have 'shotgun power in a handgun,' thereby making it the ultimate SD gun. Oh, and if you are going to load it with .45LC (the best way to actually make it a good SD gun) then you might as well just buy a real .45LC revolver because it'll have better accuracy.

I would have posted this... so +1.
Click to expand...

I think this is why the Judge is panned by many. The SD suitability of .410 loads out of a 18"+ shotgun is frequently questioned, typically due to lackluster penetration. But when Taurus hacked 13" + off the barrel of the .410, the gun suddenly becomes far more capable. It just doesn't add up.

Not bashing the Judge at all. One should carry the gun that works the best for them, and if that gun is the Judge (or a Glock, K Frame Smith or CZ 75), so be it.

But one should also take into consideration the Judge's compromises, as already discussed. Though some report stellar accuracy with 45 LC out of the Judge, the typical Judge is not going to be as accurate as a dedicated LC platform, such as the S&W 25/625, due to the Judge's additional freebore. So you if your primary reason for purchasing the gun is to shoot .45 Colt, you'd be well advised to check out other guns chambered for .45 Colt, such as the aforementioned S&W 25/625, Ruger Vacquero, Ruger Redhawk, etc.

As for the "dutch loading", one of the most comical I ever heard went something like this (gun in question was a Ruger GP100) ...

Cylinder charge hole #1: Empty brass case with only a primer. You know, to make noise, hopefully to scare the bad guy away :uhoh:

2: Same as above, but loaded with a wax bullet (no powder). If the bang doesn't scare them, maybe getting beaned by a chunk of wax will do the trick :rolleyes: .

3. 38 Special birdshot :scrutiny:

4. Another round of birdshot :what:

5. 38 Special hollowpoint (don't remember the type) :cool:

6. 158 grain .357 magnum hollowpoint :cool:

:D

NOTE: This is NOT my loading, just someone I know.

I just hope he never finds himself face-to-face with a determined aggressor standing but a few feet away. He'll have to pull the trigger 4 times to get to the first effective loading.

I don't get it, probably never will. Different folks, different strokes I reckon.
 
Ok, in Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indy used two Hand Ejectors. The one with the nicer looking band sight on the cut down barrel was a .45acp 1917. The other, I think the one that was used in the swordfight scene, was a .455 (as I recall) with a ramp sight attached to the barrel. :D

I love the TV commercial for the Judge...where the lady pulls this behemoth out of her purse.....yeah, right! :D
 
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