Just completed the 2-day Quick Kill training

[hso]

Just completed the 2-day Threat Focused "Quick Kill" training

My wife and a friend and I just completed Robin Brown's Integrated Threat Focused Training System (edited for accuracy) (Quick Kill) training here in E. TN and I've got to say that I we sure as shoot'n didn't waste our money.

Regardless of controversy or 'fave flavor' arguments surrounding Quick Kill everyone in the class, from LE to folks that had the most rudimentary of handgun skills, picked up the basic techniques very quickly. Those basic techniques cut our time from draw to bullets on target way way way down. Since very few of us are going to be walking around with gun in hand at low ready all the time I think that's an amazingly good thing (need an understatement "smilie").

From the "elbow up/elbow down" drill to "hip Quick Kill" to "da Zippa" (sorry, but I gotta tease Brownie on his Mass accent amongst all us Southerners) to "the Hammer" and on we learned techniques that put holes in paper fast and without using the sights at ranges from 6 feet to 30 feet.

The level of accuracy, i.e. how small the groups were, might not get the approval of people with lots of training and who expect groups equivalent of slow fire sight use, but we had folks that were producing groups of 1 and 2 inches at ranges of 12-15 feet using 2 hand QK shot at our own pace (not me, I grouped in the 4-6 in. range{Brownie scolded me for shooting too fast} ). Brownie showed us that he could make one ragged hole over and over again at that range and at further distances.

I shot just under 1,000 rounds in 2 days. Others shot 1,500 or more. It was just a question of how many big mags you had.

I see ways to improve the training for us noobs. Reviewing the material learned in the morning at the beginning of the afternoon after lunch would be very helpful. There's a lot done in a short period of time and you want to refresh the basic skills before getting into new things. We didn't do that the first day and I just didn't feel that I fell back into the flow of things as quickly after lunch as I would have if we had run a short string of practice on those morning techniques. To be fair, I mentioned this to Brownie and that's what he did on Sunday. We progressed very quickly from one technique to the next. (I mean very quickly.) I'd like to have slowed down to tighten up groups with a technique before we went on to the next. This was our chance to work on that perfecting each "tool" before we learned how to be passable with the next tool. Without 'adult supervision' those of us that are slightly dim (me especially) may not get better with each tool out of the big bag of QK tools we learned so I would have liked to have taken more time with each technique. Again, to be fair, there were plenty of folks doing just fine and I shouldn't expect the whole class to wait for me to get something down. Change the targets out more frequently. We shot a lot and we shot a lot fast. The targets get chewed up pretty quickly. Once we got better with a technique there were a lot of ragged holes chewed out of the target in a single magazine (did you hear the unspoken part about chewing holes in the target in a single mag without using our sights ) and I would have liked to pop some more paper up right away to see where the next mag was going a little better. You need to find a mag loader and bring it with you and you need to have practiced with it. By Sunday mid day I was in considerable pain from mag thumb and was cursing myself for having left my old style mag tool at home while the nifty new one I had pulled out of the wrapper Sat. morning lay on the ground discarded because of the base pads on my mags. If not for Paul Gomez my wife would not have gotten nearly as much from the class because not only did he help her with some basics and make sure of her safe gun handling, he loaded probably half her 4 Rami 8 round mags for her to keep her standing on the line so she could keep pace with the high cap boys (Paul, we are very much in your debt and you and your's are welcome in our home any time.).

I don't expect everyone to agree on everything. I especially don't expect people who take and give training to agree on everything. I don't think that there is one "Holy Grail" of self defense shooting. It's what works for you with the time you can spend training. What I can honestly tell you is that time to get bullets on target was cut way down for ranges that you and I would reasonably expect to be involved in a defensive shooting. I'd do the training again, and plan to in the fall.

Edited to add -

So that no one get's hung up on what the whole course is called Brownie reminds me that the title is -

Integrated Threat Focused Training Systems and covers Quick Fire, EU/ED, the zippper, the hammer, etc, etc

 

[Pilgrim]

Interesting name for defensive firearms training. Should look good on one's resume' during a civil trial for wrongful death.

Pilgrim

 

[Pickpocket]

These types of negative comments come up all the time. Really - the NAME?

It amazes me that people get so wrapped up in this stuff.... like it would work better for you if you had shot someone using the "Peace, Love, and Chocolate Kinda-But-Not-Really Bullet Projection Method"

And I can't remember the last time someone tried to PROVE what shooting method a person used in a shooting - especially if all the bullets went where they were supposed to. I can only assume we're all intelligent enough to understand how difficult it would be should a lawyer try to PROVE that a SPECIFIC technique was used at the EXACT moment of a shooting. No, let's keep our disagreements to more practical matters.

hso - good writeup, thanks for taking the time.

 

[okjoe]

PRINCIPLES OF QUICK KILL TT 23-71-1

US Army publication: TT 23-71-1, is a training text on the fast unaimed method of fire called Quick Kill (QK), and Basic Rifle Marksmanship.

QK was taught BEFORE the soldier was introduced to aimed fire which utilizes the sights.

 

[Jeff White]

OKJOE,
Quick Kill was not taught before soldiers were taught sighted fire at all training sites. It was the last thing we did in BRM at Ft Leonard Wood in 1974.

The 1974 version of FM 23-9 calls it Quick Fire, not Quick Kill.

Just because it was done one way at one training center, doesn't mean it fit in the program in the same place at others.

Jeff

 

[hso]

Quick Kill was indeed the name in the U.S. Army before they called it Quick Fire. When the Boy Scouts taught it they called it Quick Shot (or something like it).

I cringed at the name my self in spite of the historical basis, but the comment is irrelevant and contributes nothing of value unless you want to start a discussion in L&P about the name of things and their legal implications. It's what the Army called it when my buddy Cecil learned it in '68 before going to Vietnam and what they called it at "Powder Springs" where Brownie learned it.

What I am confident of is that it's a tool in the tool box that get's bullets on target quicker when you need to.

 

[Pilgrim]

These types of negative comments come up all the time. Really - the NAME?

Remember what happened to 'Black Talon' ammunition?

Pilgrim

 

[Pickpocket]

Yes I do. However, that was a product of three things:
1. Anti-gun media hype
2. The fact that there is arguably little difficulty in proving that a certain type of round was used in a shooting.
3. Bad production and marketing decisions on Winchester's part.

The name - in fact - had nothing to do with the fact that Winchester pulled them from the shelves. What DID have an impact, though, was their decision to put a dry-lubricant, black molybdenum disulfide (I looked that one up for spelling), coating on it to play up the appearances...which is all it took to link it to the teflon coated "cop-killers". THAT's where it got screwed up.

I hear what you're saying, though. We all should have come to terms with the possibility of a civil lawsuit following even the most justified of SD shootings. However, I would consider myself lucky to still be around to attend that trial - and if the training is used responsibly then a simple thing like the "name" of a course doesn't provide much (pardon the pun) ammunition for the lawyers. They're going to try to paint a picture of an "on-the-fringe" vigilante anyways.

I would like to point out that the actual NAME of the course is called Integrated Threat-Focused Training Systems. QK is simply a single technique in a group of training tools.

 

[Jeff White]

hso,
I don't know when the Army officially changed the name from Quick Kill to Quick Fire. It was called Quick Kill when I was trained on it, however when I got some rank and actually had access to the FM in use at the time it was called Quick Fire. So I assume that sometime between 1967 and 1974 they changed the name for whatever reason.

Jeff

 

[hso]

Pilgrim,

First, here in TN there would be no civil trial on a clean shoot. Search the news history here. You won't see it. If I was where you fled from it's possible, but then I can't carry a gun in Kali.

Second, if you were back in Kali when they found out that you took any pistol training do you think they'd care what it was called? All that would matter is that they would say you were some poser wannabe playing merc just fantasising about killing some one. You're toast if you take any training by your account. By my accounts you're dead if you don't.

 

[Pickpocket]

Jeff -
It was originally called Quick Kill when Lucky McDaniels taught it to the army in the late 60's. Within a few years the Army had changed the method (not just the name) to Quick Fire.

Remember to think "inside the box"

Is that what you're remembering?

 

[real_name]

hso, just 1000 rnds?
That leaves a lot of that pallet of ammo left over from last week I guess. Or didn't you say that was a group buy?

I have no problem with that course being called 'Quick kill'. Seems perfectly descriptive to me.

 

[sm]

hso,
sound as if you , the wife and others had a busy , but fun time.
I appreciate your review and sharing.

Curious if I may?
Any changes to equipment needed? Meaning did what you were previously trained with/ on work with this method - or any adaptations were made or come to light needed to be?

Great Review, and I realize hard to digest everything this soon.

Where I am going is - this class adaptive to sight shooting? Meaning the sights get busted off, one has blood, mud, sand in dominate eye, perhaps strong hand / side hit, and having to defend weak handed. Perhaps downed man drills and use in having shoot from awkward postitions.

Just wondering, as we learn from everything, in my book. I have myself, and have done so with others...the shooter's gun had no sights, whatcha gonna do?

Mentors did that with me, later so did others with me or in stages have to run and grab a gun to use, and - no sights on the thing.

Like I said, we learn from everthing, may not be for us, then again it may,could be, or may be handy to know for someone else.

Taught to keep an open mind myself-

Thanks,

Steve

 

[Trebor]

The orignal civlian name was "Quick Skill." At least that's the name that was used to marke the Crossman (or was it Daisy) BB guns that were sold without sights to learn the system with. Morphing it into "Quick Kill" for the Army made sense.

 

[brownie0486]

Just some clarification on the names here, and the time line of each.

Bobby Lamar "Lucky" McDaniel taught what he developed as "Instinct shooting", It was rifle skills and he used a bbgun to train people as the places he was asked to go to were more conducive to using a bbgun than a shotgun at times. That and the bb's could be seen in flight which helped him train his son when it was time to make him a wingshooter.

When the USArmy decided to adopt Lucky's Instinct shooting rifle technique, they named their program Quick Kill [ QK ] using his instinctive shooting system. They also adopted his use of the bbguns to train the troops at that time, before getting the trainees on the rifles.

Quick Fire is not Quick Kill. It has it's own unique characteristics and does not come close to resembling QK.

The original QK program was quickly bastardized into something that was not Lucky's work and accordingly was not as effective as the original program had been and was later offically dropped from their training by the USArmy.

Daisy picked up on the USArmy's program and developed their own "quick skill" program which promoted their bbguns which were used by the military. It was a marketing tool for them, no more or less.

When I trained with Lucky in 81, the pistol skills he gave us were not called QK either. There never was pistol QK until I wrote the narrative a few years ago on the "How to" of the technique he showed several of us that week in Ga. Pistol QK [ as I called it and have sole registered copyrights to ] was never adopted by the USArmy or anyone else. It was never published anywhere before I wrote the narrative "how to", and thats how I come to own the name for the technique McDaniel trained us on with Wash, DC through the library of Congress and the US Copyright office.

sm;
Pistol QK fits right into any sighted fire program effortlessly. QK does not replace sighted fire and both are necessary to be well rounded in defensive firearms. There has been a lot of misunderstanding about what it is myself and the other QK instructors are training people to do here.

Myself and the QK instructors use our "Integrated Threat Focused Training Systems" as the theme of the course and pistol QK is just one part within that total package people are seeing such as HSO has described here in his review. There is QK two handed, QK hip [ another technique Lucky showed us ], and mamy more techniques within the total package.

The is not a Quick Kill course or QK training alone. It is Integrated Threat Focused Training Systems and covers Quick Fire, EU/ED, the zippper, the hammer, etc, etc to include some 20-24 different techniques which we can train others in within the course structure itself.

Many of the skills we impart are brought to the plate by the other licensed QK instructors. 7677 brings his unique perspective and abilities as well as his expertise, Sweatnbullets has had major input in development of the course materials and has helped develop and developed his own set of particular skills as well, along with the QK materials which are my own and which I have used for 25 years.

We are all capable of these various skills, we are also all capable of training others in these skills and the Integrated Threat Focused Training Systems course is a total package with input from all of the instrcutors, not just one, hence the name of the course. The key word being "Integrated".

HSO;
It was a pleasure to finally meet you and your wife, and train with both of you this weekend. I appreciate your posting your thoughts on the training you were exposed to over the weekend and I thank you and everyone who attended.

We'll certainly be back into your area, from what I gathered before I left, in speaking to the students during the after action session under the big top. You are a most gratious host.

By the way folks, I will close with this statement about HSO's skills. Do not be fooled by his humble opinion of his own skills here. He can run a gun as well as most I've seen, and better than quite a few who attended this event in Knoxville. He was not, and is not wanting in his skills sets with a pistola.

I have it on good authority he can also shoot two guns simultaneously [ one in each hand ], on the same threat, as well as two threats that are 10-12 feet apart and be COM on both from 8 feet away. Though this skill has not been released to the public as of yet, it will be before the year is out, and HSO has the jump on it.

Don't bother asking him how it's done, it not in the cards until we release it officially.

Robin Brown

 

[gunsmith]

thanks for a good report

What I can honestly tell you is that time to get bullets on target was cut way down for ranges that you and I would reasonably expect to be involved in a defensive shooting

That seems a heck of a lot more important then the name of the course.

There was a case in San Francisco two years ago that surprised me, a garage was being burgleized and the owner came home and caught them the bad guys who pointed a gun at our hero, he grabbed it and shot the fleeing felons in the back!

good guy was never prosecuted!!! ...the point is that CA is pretty bad but it still aint new jersey or new york.

 

[hso]

The orignal civlian name was "Quick Skill." At least that's the name that was used to marke the Crossman (or was it Daisy) BB guns

Thanks Trebor, that's it and it was Daisy (I think).

Curious if I may?
Any changes to equipment needed? Meaning did what you were previously trained with/ on work with this method - or any adaptations were made or come to light needed to be?

SM,

There were no basic equipment changes that needed to be made. Jim Music's BIL ran a hog leg wheel gun out of leather holster and he was one of the best shooters in the class! Sheriff's swiftwater rescue guys with duty belts and daily carry rigs, engineers with Glocks and kydex, a young jailer (who actually is the small sheriff department's IT guy) had only run 200 rounds through his issue glock and me with my BHP and a flat OWB concealment holster all did well.

Prior training didn't seem to interfere with learning the skills. An ignorant boob like me who had spent most of his time punching paper standing upright in a mod weaver was punching COM 6 in groups from elbow up/elbow down hip shooting within 15 minutes. (Don't let Brownie fool ya'll. I didn't do one whit better than most folks in the class. I was just open to learning something new. Oh, and I didn't mean to hit that other target, I just missed the near one real wide. ) There were people there that trained a lot (I mean spend money several times a year) who were doing great and there were guys there that had been taught to shoot like street cops that were doing great.

The thing to remember isn't that you're not replacing skills with these skills. This just provides additional skills. Brownie may be able to chew a ragged 2 inch hole out of a target with 2 handed QK at 30 feet, but I would still use my sights if I had to put bullets into a space that precise at that range. He never claimed it was a replacement for what we knew or for sight shooting under all circumstances. Instead he kept reminding us that if you don't have time or don't have space or don't have a sight picture, for what ever reason, you could still hit a man sized target out to 30 feet without the sights.

There is no way to resolve the endless argument about whether it's more important to take the time to get a single precision shot into the CNS of someone shooting at you or whether it's more important to get a quick shot that hits them to interrupt their shooting at you so you can follow up with more precise shots. The experiment can't be performed without shooting people to collect the data and I don't think we're allowed to do that in this country. I do have to say that ALL of us (even my wife with her CZ Rami in an IWB) were coming out of the holster and putting 2 in the torso and one in the head from the hip at 6-10 feet very quickly very consistantly and that impressed the daylights out of me.

I don't want to get all mushy, but Jim Music (JMusic here) deserves a big thanks for getting Brownie to come down and give the course. He let me help with some of the details, but it was his idea and his effort to get Brownie down that allowed me to learn these new skills.

Oh BTW, the temps were in the upper 80's and the humidity was high. We were in a mowed field with a big hill as a backstop, but we were beside the lake and it was hot and humid and I was ready to fall out a couple of times by the end of the days. The swiftwater rescue boys broght their 10X10 popup tent and we brought our and if my wife hadn't insisted that we bring the 12X30 pavilion we'd have been hiding in the bushes with the chiggers and ticks instead of sitting in lawn chairs drinking ice water.

 

[Pickpocket]

The thing to remember isn't that you're not replacing skills with these skills. This just provides additional skills. Brownie may be able to chew a ragged 2 inch hole out of a target with 2 handed QK at 30 feet, but I would still use my sights if I had to put bullets into a space that precise at that range. He never claimed it was a replacement for what we knew or for sight shooting under all circumstances. Instead he kept reminding us that if you don't have time or don't have space or don't have a sight picture, for what ever reason, you could still hit a man sized target out to 30 feet without the sights.

Ahhhh hso, you've just nailed what so many people just can't seem to come to terms with. Well done, sir!

Congrats on the successful training, I hope you and your wife walked out with more tools than you walked in with.

 

[444]

Tag (going out of town, want to read when I get back).

 

[hso]

Here's another good thing about the weekend. A buddy of mine in the class realllllly needs his glasses to see. Without them he can't even make out the front sight on a gun and he can't clearly see the holes in the paper as other than black smudges. He was making groups consistently with your techniques without them! He's sold.

I'm convinced.

 

[Sweatnbullets]

hso, sounds like you guys had a very good course. It is nice being a part of something that is getting such positive responses from our students.

Thank you for taking the time to put down your thoughts.

Sweatnbullets, Integrated Threat Focused Instructor

 

[hso]

Sweatnbullets,

I can honestly tell you that 7 of us all agreed that the course made us much better and more confident in our ability to defend ourselves with a handgun than we were before we went into it. This included experienced LE as well as noobs.

I think Brownie had as much fun as we did because he was grinning all the time and laughing at how quickly we were picking things up.

 

[Soap]

hso- Thanks for posting the detailed review!

 

[brownie0486]

I think Brownie had as much fun as we did because he was grinning all the time and laughing at how quickly we were picking things up.

Me have fun shooting? I would think so sir

In reality, the biggest kick I get out of students progressing into this type of shooting is watching their faces when they see their targets afterwards, without the use of their sights.

John, one of the LE guys that were there had me tape his sights as he was afraid he would use them. He shot all day Sat with the taped sights and at the end of the day when he was unarsing to leave noticed he had to take the tape off the guns sights. Now that really does tell me that he had not even bothered to look at the gun all day while shooting but hitting COM.

And that is what it's all about for me--being able to use the gun without conscious thought and KNOW you'll be getting hits on threats. OUTSTANDING to see students do this with nary any effort after being shown how.

These types of reviews of the training validates what has been said all along by myself and others. Not only is it possible, but it's not even something that takes all that much time to be able to do.

HSO;
If you are shooting small groups, you are shooting too slow. When you folks on the line had the COM hits I was looking for, we progressed to the next technique. I wanted to make sure everyone thought they got their monies worth out of the two days spent on the range.

Brownie

 

[JMusic]

Well it sure was hot here in Knoxville this weekend, and not just from the weather. More than once I stuck a finger against my Model 17 and heard it sizzle! For those old guys who have shot competively it was like shooting revolver PPC at the 7 yard line without using your sights and hitting the X. Fast out of the holster and pull the trigger quickly many times. Adjust your position by watching hits on target. I had a blast!! First structured course I have shot in 20 years. hso has described the course very accurately and I agree with most of his statements. I do want to thank him for his help in putting this together, without his help this would not have happened. Thanks Mike.

My observations will come from a slightly different perspective. I had modified my delivery years ago knowing one, that you do not take your eyes off the threat and two, your shots have to be quick and on target. Its that simple. Yet all courses I attended in my former employment focused on accuracy (target shooting accuracy) and "moderate" speed, (timed events). So I watched the LE guys. Saturday morning I made the comment to my BIL, "Watch those guys they are way too slow." Six ft away in a combat course and they were doing what they were trained to do, target shoot. Well that didn't last long. One of the deputies got his sights taped so he couldn't use them, the others took the hint and started focusing on the target. By that evening everyone in the group had increased in speed drastically and everyone knew it! Me? Well just last week I was writing on another forum how shooting from full arm extension was just as quick as hip shooting. You see I have been an instinctive shooter most of my life. I've shot alot without using sights, but not from the hip. By noon of the first day I knew I had a new tool. Maybe one of the most important I have ever been shown. "How to accurately hip shoot." I'm not kidding within an hour of being shown the technique I could throw rounds on target as fast as I could draw the weapon. Yep old dogs can learn new tricks. Hey homie is that my briefcase?!
Jim