Just how accurately can you stab?

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True story... I once spotted a medium sized spider on the wall as I walked along a hallway at work. On a whim I pulled out my pocket knife and took a swipe at it as I was walking. The spider remained where it was. For some reason I thought I had been close enough to it to at least touch it with the blade.

On closer inspection I found that the spider no longer had a head attached, it was all thorax. Simple dumb luck, I'm not ace with a blade, but it was entertaining at the time. Full disclosure: I generally let spiders live unless they're dangerous.

As far as eye sockets... I dunno, I think you're better off going for a bigger, softer target. There's a reason the brain is so thinly guarded there is we're so good at defending our eyes. Heck, I knocked my toddler back a couple feet when she poked me in the eye as I was dozing the other day. I'm no abusive parent, it's just reflexes.

I have almost no knowledge of knife fighting. My view is to stab whatever you can and keep stabbing. Assuming, of course, that you're not too busy philosophizing about how concerned you are for your attacker's well-being.
 
Targeting is important in all forms of combat being able to hit where you look at (aim) can translate into a quick finish. The smaller hit at full speed the better.

In knife fighting, poking,slashing,fleshing and ripping are better choices with broader targeting Jugular veins, brachial, femoral, belly, testicles, wrist tendons, knee tendons,ham strings.


I'm not a fan of deep stabbing into the thorax. Doing so can cost you your life, your blade can become lodged in bone,and still not deliver a fatal cut. It can also be captured at the hilt and held in place.

Even a knife in the hands of the untrained is a force to be reckoned with.Moving forward working thier arms like a sewing machine,and a corn combine.Can give you a Jesus moment.

**Please note.. I'm no expert just a older guy who's experiences and information works for me alone. So I will always defer to the far superior knowledge and expertise of others who post here.
 
Even if you can hit the eye, I don't think it is a great target. You would need quite a long blade to do any damage to the brain (and that's assuming you don't get a down angle that damages the face only).
I haven't been that impressed by stabbed faces. In many cases the globe itself isn't even damaged, it is merely pushed aside. There is not much in the way of blood vessels in that area either. You are much better off going for the neck.
 
I'm not a fan of deep stabbing into the thorax.

This made me laugh out loud... but hey, me neither.

---

I can imagine the court session:

The judge asks "why did you see it necessary to stab the guy in the eye"

You* respond "because he was threatening my life"

The judge "that must take some practice to master"

You "yes..."

The judge "did you ever consider practicing disarming the opponent"

You "no, I leave that to eurotrash wussies... like JVoutilainen."

I mean really. Come on...

Why don't you people eject the dvd and return to planet earth?

*you being the proponents of the eyestabbin' school
 
Oh, now I'm hurting... I'm such a wussy.

Look dude, the OP had a reasonable question about stabbing and accuracy. All you want to talk about is not stabbing people. It's just not a useful discussion. Go start your own thread about how you prefer to disarm someone than injure them. It's an interesting enough topic, it's just not this topic. I'm a peaceful guy, I don't want to tangle with anybody - all discussions here are predicated on the idea that you've got no other option.

So blade getting caught when stabbing thorax areas... can anyone confirm this happens? Is this from actually stabbing into a bone and getting wedged?

Personally, I'm mostly untrained and would just be wildly stabbing and slashing at the person. As mentioned above, an amateur swinging a blade can be quite dangerous, but there's probably a better rule of thumb.
 
In my experience, just behind the ear with a blade or a bullet shuts the target (I've only done this to deer) down instantly. If you press with your finger, you can feel a gap between the skull and the jaw.

I think being able to hit a small target is excellent practice. I personally wouldn't go for the eyes first, if only because the head of an attacker is likely to be farther away. I think of flowing from an attack to the hand holding the weapon (this would be both an attack and a "cover"), to inside (a potential lethal or disabling target), to out- and running, if possible and advisable. You can call 911 (in the States) once you're clear of the "kill zone"/immediate danger.

zhyla, until you've had some formal training, a good thing to remember and practice is not over-extending. You want power, but you don't want to leave yourself open. So, set up a target- maybe a full 1 liter water bottle- put on some eye protection and gloves, and practice. Practice slicing open that water bottle without swinging much past it, and as soon as you can get a good, powerful slice (instead of just "batting" the bottle away), then begin practicing instantly redirecting your blade and doing a "recovery" slash that will bring your arm back to the original position in front of your body. Once you can do this, you'll at least stand a decent chance of being able to cut an attacker's weapon hand enough so that they can't continue an attack with it. It may be important to cut an attacker's arm even if there's no weapon in it- being choked, for instance, is a lethal threat and can lawfully be met with (potentially) lethal force.

Philosophically, it is indeed often better to not kill an attacker, if you can help it. The focus, however, is on stopping the attack. This is important from both a legal and a mindset perspective. For almost all civilians, only sufficient force to stop the attack may be used. When you're under attack, your mind must be clear. Desperately trying not to cause too much injury while your life is being threatened will slow you down, making you (and your family? Your team? Other innocents down the line?) less likely to survive the attack. Train hard, do the right thing as you understand it, and try to let go of being attached to a certain result.

John
 
Not that the eye socket is the easiest target to hit but it is the smallest. If you can hit something that size you should have no problem with the bigger targets.

About the only realistic way to get a feel for using a knife is in dressing game. Jam a few good stabs into the thorax of a deer or hog and see if your knife really gets stuck. Put one in the eye socket and see how easy it can be done. Try a fast slash with a three inch folder and see how shallow the cut really is. You might be surprised at what you find. The men who developed the Tansu system were avid hunters and did a lot of knife research on dead animals.
 
I've made a point of learning a bit about using a blade for close quarters defense... I've also had lots and lots of experience using a blade for work purposes (cutting, cleaning large fish, at times 2 - 300 lbs a day as a mate on a charter boat and later as a commercial hook and liner prepping fish for sale to various businesses). Although I've had a concealed carry permit the last fifteen years since I retired from police work, I've chosen not to carry a firearm and only keep a single defensive blade on my person at all times. Although stabbing (and placing your blade where it's needed) has value - it would be pretty low on scale of "things to do" with a blade defensively for me. My first target would always be whatever hand my opponent is holding a weapon with (and if he/she is foolish enough to get close - bad things are going to happen to that hand, wrist, and arm). I'll do my best to keep my blade completely concealed until that moment (why spoil the surprise?). Lots more to say about this sort of stuff - but not in an open forum.

Two other thoughts about using a blade defensively. I once worked with a nice, quiet, older guy who had been a spook for many years. His first action (using a pretty small auto blade) was to palm it for concealment and only open it as he was reaching toward your throat.... and he was very good, his move showed quite a bit of practice.... At touching distances I don't think I'd have been able to defend against it.

My Dad, long since passed away, was a career Army officer from WWII all the way through two tours in Vietnam as he neared retirement ( I did one short tour in country). His only comment about blade work was that "you had to get entirely too close". That in a nutshell is the deal with a blade. Not something I'm ever looking forward to. I try to keep my distance from anyone that might be a problem. Distance is your friend if you're facing weapons that require close contact.
 
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Distance is your friend if you're facing weapons that require close contact.

Bingo.

I usually don't suggest knives as defensive tools for just that reason- however, sexual assault is a major concern for deployed troops, both male and female. There are a lot of blind corners in theater, especially due to concrete "t wall" set up to protect from blasts. If you are grabbed, a quick knife may be the best way to free yourself.

Of course, the best thing is not to be grabbed. :(
 
If you are grabbed, a quick knife may be the best way to free yourself.

Of course, the best thing is not to be grabbed. :(

Not that I am any expert, but I thought this worth commenting on. IMVHO, there is no greater defensive use for a blade than when you're *already* in close contact through no real choice of your own; that's the space where the danger of edged weapons comes into play, so may as well make it play for your team.

We've had some lively gun v. knife threads around these parts, and I've always been more the hypothetical gun guy, right up until it comes to clinch time (I remember having a lively debate with Jon in WNV over elevator defense), at which point I start thinking about some of the serious knifists that I have taken seminar with. Scary guys like Eric Remmen and Felix Valencia-guys who are spooky good at targeting-tend to choose things like the inner thigh/groin area and the an*s (!), in addition to the typical areas that more quickly come to mind for the lay person.

IMHO, knives like soft targets, of which there are plenty. While certainly soft, the eye has enough hard surrounding it to make it a secondary choice to almost anything else I can reach.

Ultimately, whomever it was above that paraphrased Clint Smith was probably correct; roughly: "Cut whatever is available until something better becomes available".
 
Luckily I don't have to worry about anyone running at me with a bomb. On the other hand, I do have to worry about addicts, drunken fools, ethnic gangs etc. And these days I can deal with pretty much everything simply by talking my way out of the situation.

now ive havent spent much time outside the states..

...but if you can talk your way out of being mugged, attacked, or killed......either the gangs in your neck of the woods wear a top hat, monocle, and a curly mustache and discuss their disagreements over a good cigar and a glass of brandy.......or you have secretly mastered jedi mind tricks......

because most people bent on harming you.....are probably not likely to be swayed by reason or legalities.....
 
i have a short Rapier in the basement, that followed me from a fleamarket.

I´d take that as SD tool anytime. Without practice 8 out of 10 :)
 
M-Cameron,

because most people bent on harming you.....are probably not likely to be swayed by reason or legalities...

Reason and legalities... uh, yes, agreed. You should stick to eye stabbing if that is your limit when it comes to understanding psychology and communications during confrontation.

I'm sorry if this sounds outrageous to you, but men are not machines, and you CAN influence people in many "uncanny" ways.

Try this: next time someone starts screaming at you for one reason or the other, relax your posture (but maintain readiness) and respond so softly that he/she has to lower their voice to hear your reply. That is just one technique, and you don't have to be Obi Wan Kenobi to use it.

Police forces and security personnel around the world are being trained in these techniques... telling that you know nothing about it.
 
Don't underestimate good communication skills borne out of confidence. I've talked my way out of as many potentially dangerous situations as I've had to defend myself. One of them with a very angry guy with a knife. Lowering your voice and relaxing your posture does amazing things in people's responses.
 
Reason and legalities... uh, yes, agreed. You should stick to eye stabbing if that is your limit when it comes to understanding psychology and communications during confrontation.

I'm sorry if this sounds outrageous to you, but men are not machines, and you CAN influence people in many "uncanny" ways.

Try this: next time someone starts screaming at you for one reason or the other, relax your posture (but maintain readiness) and respond so softly that he/she has to lower their voice to hear your reply. That is just one technique, and you don't have to be Obi Wan Kenobi to use it.

Police forces and security personnel around the world are being trained in these techniques... telling that you know nothing about it.

believe me, ive worked security....and know a good deal about psychology.....and i know it is entirely possible to talk down angry and upset people.....ive done it before....

but i also realize that there is only so much that can be done with kind words and a relaxed demeanor.

because somehow i dont see "hey buddy, im sorry, you were right...let talk about this" doing much good against someone swinging a pipe at your head.....

believe it or not....but there are actually genuinely bad people out there........people who will go out and attack, rob, kill people for the shear fun of it......and no amount of smooth talking is going to stop them.....


do you honestly believe that you are going to be able to talk down some thug mugging you as a gang initiation..........or some junkie looking to score his next fix.........?

if you can deescalate a situation without violence....by all means do it....do it first and go home safe

but also realize that not every situation you may encounter will be that forgiving.
 
Stab: not so good. But I can slash pretty accurately with my kabar TDI, and I know what areas tend to bleed more than others.
 
I don't think that practicing this way with a knife is bad at all from a motor skill standpoint, but it's not a major consideration overall in the scheme of things.

First you need to have a good reason in your mind to be using this kind of attack. Both in the sense that it's lethal force and must be justified, and - as far as you are concerned - there must be an occasion to choose this over an option such as tangling up with the attacker (with or without your knife in play).

To my thinking this use of the knife is a consideration in two circumstances, and both of them are mid-ranged. In terms of carryable type impact or edged weapons, IMO there are three distances - outside of range, mid-range, and clinched or close-range.

Without discussing appropriate tactics too extensively, and keeping it focused on the scope of the thread, I'll just point out that mid-ranged exchanges involving deadly force rarely stay mid-ranged for very long: people have a tendency to move toward or away from something that's trying to hurt them.

So the two potential circumstances I can envision using a knife in a mid-ranged defensive encounter are where someone else has a knife and you have a knife, and happen to be in the rare but nonetheless possible "knife vs knife" fight. This CAN happen but is unlikely. If he is semi-sane and coherent it could remain mid-ranged (sane people don't tend to close on a drawn knife).

The other circumstance I can envision is multiple potential attackers encroaching and you draw your knife ready to use it, but prior to using it in order to intimidate. This is maybe not an ideal use but again it depends on the situation.

So knowing those are, IMO, the two most likely mid-range defensive knife roles, the question is how would you use a "precision" knife technique? I don't believe precision is as much of a concern in a clinch - not hitting yourself and maintaining proper position are of much more concern and much more doable.

I know of three ways to use a knife - forward grip edge up (like a clinch pick), reverse grip edge in (Aka Pikal, like a disciple or spyderco p'kal), and conventional/forward grip edge out (like a kitchen knife, etc, with a locked thumb grip - no "perchy perching").

My operating system runs pretty lean whenever possible so as to not use up a lot of RAM. I like simplicity and feel that FMAs engender needless complexity with all of the learning of angles, etc. I prefer to work on footwork (not saying FMAs don't teach footwork), positioning, and combos.

I've found that an eye-shot is impossible unless you set it up, and the best way to do that is to go for a hand shot. I do NOT believe "defanging the snake" works with a 2-4" bladed knife from a physiological standpoint, but I'll take what I can get. Ideally if we get a solid hand shot, we can step in quickly and follow up with an eye, neck, clavicle, armpit, sternum, or temple shot. Again I'm not picky.

By far the most powerful method for me, used properly, is the reverse grip edge in, like this:

Eyejab-1.jpg

It involves a perpendicular hip snap (you step in with your lead/strong side foot and fire the hips so as to turn partially away toward your weak side) and usually full extension (elbow and shoulder turn at the last second while hips fire), which does leave one vulnerable unless done extremely quickly and to less than full extension.

The set-up shot is similar but with less extension and more circular.

The beauty of RGEI is it works great with things like pens and flashlights.

In both cases since the edge is inverted you can pull toward you and catch something other than your target should it be there.

I guess I rambled but what I'm getting at is that there is a lot more to pulling off a precision knife shot than just possessing the precision, and it's not a very likely skill to need, although that doesn't keep me from practicing it.
 
It is peacetime here, so, no need to stab anyone in the eye.
It's only true that there is no need until there actually IS a need.

I don't see anyone suggesting that the first response to any confrontation should be to stab the offender in the eye. The assumption is that stabbing is taking place because it has become necessary to use deadly force and a knife is the implement at hand.

If you would never use deadly force to defend yourself or someone else, then for you, I suppose, it's never necessary and nothing on this thread applies to you in the slightest. In that case it makes little sense for you to participate in the thread--it's like a cow arguing with a pack of wolves about what type of meat tastes better, pork or mutton.

If you believe that deadly force is sometimes necessary (as when defending yourself or an innocent/defenseless third party) and you find that sometimes you have no other implement at hand besides a knife, then you may find that stabbing someone may become necessary at some point. Then some of what's being discussed on this thread may be useful EVEN if you disagree that the eye socket is a valid target. That's because the thread is about stabbing precisely, not just about stabbing someone in the eye socket.

Frankly, I'd like to make it through my life without stabbing or cutting someone, but I can see that there could be a combination of circumstances that might make it more or less the only option. For me, that combination of circumstances would be:

1. A scenario where it's not possible to verbally de-escalate the situation.
AND
2. Disarming the attacker isn't within my ability.
AND
3. I'm unwilling to allow myself to be injured or killed and/or unwilling to stand by and allow the attacker to injure or kill an innocent/defenseless third party.
AND
4. The best weapon I have to hand at the time is a knife.
 
M-Cameron,

So, now you know about it? How convenient. First you mock me because you thought the idea was as valid as voodoo magic, but now, when it is clear you were wrong... you are suddenly intimately familiar with the techniques.

Very convincing.

And please. Save yourself from further embarrassment and give up. After a ten years career in security I obviously know that it is not a silver bullet, or a magic wand you can wave to make all really bad people disappear.

---

About eye stabbing.

Ludicrous. Pure fantasy.

If you are into knife fighting hitting small moving targets sounds like a drill with obviously advantages, but anyone who has ever been to an actual fight knows that once you would be in a position to deliver the infamous THR-eyestab with any degree of confidence... you would not have to, anymore. Who would press on? Charles Manson.
 
once you would be in a position to deliver the infamous THR-eyestab with any degree of confidence... you would not have to, anymore

Okay, now you're betraying a curious ignorance for someone with the extensive rough background you describe. The beauty- if you can describe something so deadly serious in any positive terms- of attacking in or near the eye with a sharp is that one doesn't have to actually penetrate the eye to be effective. People automatically act to protect their eyes. Stabbing or slashing towards that part of the face will cause the attacker to deflect away almost every single time. Further, a slash just above the eye can blind the attacker from blood running into the eye almost immediately. If they have reduced visibility, it's easier to continue the fight until you can get to safety. And getting to safety is the goal, not any certain condition your attacker is left in.

Would I actually stab someone in the eye? Maybe not. But the drill does have merit, much like just starting a nail in a board, and then hammering it in with one strong thrust with a stick. I don't expect to be attacked by many nails, but it's still a terrific exercise.

John
 
JShirley,

Ditto.

If this is such a valid technique would you be kind enough to point out the material that supports your claim? Maybe from a period where edged weapon were widely used.

Does Talhoffer or some other fencing master of the old mention this?

I would also like to point out that I am not talking about wildly slashing across the face, but the specific thrust-through-the-eye-socket-all-the-way-to-the-brain technique i.e. THR-eyestab.
 
THR-eyestab

When did it become the "THR eyestab"? And I'm a Japanese stylist, not a European one. Attacking the eyes (sometimes as metsubishi) is a common attack. I have only mild familiarity with Western styles.

Further, no-one mentioned fencing. And I said
the drill does have merit
. I don't know how to "speak slower" in print, and I don't know Finnish.
 
Talking ones self out of a threatening situation is a very viable tactic. Having a glass eye and NO depth perception I won't be winning any knife fights. Remaining calm, clear headed, and in control is just as important as having a clear and well lit exterior to your home to resist burglars. If the threat overcomes reason my next step is distance and a pistol, not a knife.
 
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