K31 Vs Enfield .303 Carbine

[Ironicaintit]

I have nothing to offer here except this quip:

I used to have an Enfield. I still have the K31.

 

[someguy2800]

I don't hunt bears and a lot depends on size of the bear and distance. From some of the monsters around, I would start with a 45/70 and up. Self defense from those in bear country often occurs at pretty short range which means you might not get a second shot. A 30/30 might do at a distance but at point blank, you would want them stopped asap. Even in the southern part of my state, the swamps have some really big black bears.

I also do not hunt black bear. Based on the animals I have shot with various calibers of rifles I don’t have any reason to believe either of those will stop an animal faster than the other.

 

[boom boom]

I also do not hunt black bear. Based on the animals I have shot with various calibers of rifles I don’t have any reason to believe either of those will stop an animal faster than the other.

The principle is a bigger hole will cause greater blood loss and internal injuries. A .30-30 in the right place could do the trick via a nervous system or heart hit. One famous sportman (WD Bell) shot elephants in Africa with a 7mm I believe in Africa but he was an expert marksman and took out their central nervous system. (Your comment made me look it up see https://chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htm ) Ordinary hunters used elephant guns with massive bullets.

 

[someguy2800]

The principle is a bigger hole will cause greater blood loss and internal injuries. A .30-30 in the right place could do the trick via a nervous system or heart hit. One famous sportman (WD Bell) shot elephants in Africa with a 7mm I believe in Africa but he was an expert marksman and took out their central nervous system. (Your comment made me look it up see https://chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htm ) Ordinary hunters used elephant guns with massive bullets.

Yes in theory, but in practice I’ve not seen that actually prove true.

 

[Goosey]

I'd much rather walk around carrying a 7 lb, 20" barrel carbine than a 9 lb, 26" barrel straight-pull rifle.

 

[boom boom]

Yes in theory, but in practice I’ve not seen that actually prove true.

This is akin to the .45 v. 9mm discussion. There is documented proof of people using large bores to kill large dangerous critters and documented proof of people using small bores. You place your bet and take your risk. As for me, 12 gage slugs would be my go to at close distance for self defense from such-at a distance a .30-06 or a 8x57 Mauser might be fine but my shotgun is semi-auto versus bolt action for the small bores.

 

[William Dykstra]

I don't own a K31, but I do own a K11 and three SMLEs and nice Longbranch No. 4 Mk.1* (Which happens to be featured in my profile picture). My K11 is a great rifle, but I don't shoot it much due to ammo availability. A .303 British will due just fine against black bear with a 180 Winchester PowerPoint (that is of course if the marksman does his part). 7.5x55 is also a good calibre for bear, but you don't really have as much of variety with factory ammo than the .303. This would of course be mitigated with handloading, since the 7.5 swiss uses a .308 diameter projectile your load variety with the 7.5x55 swiss would far surpass that of the .303. If I was using the 7.5 swiss I would probably use the Nosler Accubond. That being said, our friends to the North of us (Canada) have utilized the Enfield .303 to kill bear for nearly a century, so you probably don't need the latest and greatest design of hunting bullet to due the job. I would personally use either a 180 gr Winchester PowerPoint in my Smith-Corona 1903a3 30-06, or the same bullet in my Longbranch No.4 Mk.1*, simply because I'm more comfortable with those rifles (this is due to the length of pull and ease of using peep sights). But, I certainly wouldn't cast any doubt on the K31 or any other rifle in 7.5 swiss. There are of course a great deal of commercial rifles that could do the same job. Or, you could get yourself an old Mauser 98 action and get it chambered in .35 Whelen or 7mm Mag. and would do just fine for black bear. To be honest, there are so many great options out there, I wouldn't settle on just two rifles for the job.
Just my 2 cents

 

[BigBore44]

There’s only one proven way to stop an animal in its tracks every time. That’s to interrupt transmission of electrical signals from the brain to the spinal cord and then to the subsequent appendages.

So since 99% of us are just going to defecate on ourselves should we ever really be charged and hope/pray we can get the right shot off, what we’re really talking about is crippling the animal. In other words, breaking bones required to continue forward movement. So choose your ammunition accordingly.

If you’re hunting from the ground, you “could” actually be the one being hunted. If that’s the case, well, you’re already in danger. Bears, even big bruins, can be next to silent when walking. Those big feet cover a lot of surface to disperse their weight. Plan your hunting location accordingly.

If you’re going to the bear woods, rely on your senses and your brain more than your rifle. Because that rifle won’t do anything your brain doesn’t tell it to. A big gun won’t protect you if you don’t have the intestinal fortitude and wits to use it correctly. You might as well have brought a pellet gun.

I love milsurps as much as the next guy. But you’re taking your life in your hands when you go in the woods and stay on the ground in bear country. That bear doesn’t give a damn what rifle you take. The only thing that will matter to him is how proficient you are with it under duress. Because then, his life is on the line too. So choose your weapon accordingly.

 

[Ignition Override]

Even among people whose Enfield No. 5s make really consistent groups at 50, even 100 yards, some people who sold or traded the guns because of the recoil won't mention the recoil.

A plastic butt pad slips right on the stock for more comfortable shooting. I've owned my #5 "Jungle" for about five years.

Know how to identify a true #5 versus a typical (former) #4 converted--after WW2 in the US-- to look like a "Jungle"? This might be a bit subtle for some people, but compare the wooden shape/contour of the metal tab just Forward of the magazine well.
**On the #4s the metal contour matches the cut out in the wood. On the actual #5 "Jungle", the metal contour is a bit of an hourglass or figure "8".

My Enfield book never mentioned this at all. Written by Charles Stratton.
Guys at gun shows don't want to remove upper handguards to let you look for "lightening cuts" on #5s, so compare the area fwd. of the magazine well. One or two might just lie to your face about the actual gun being an 'original' Jungle..

 

[boom boom]

Even among people whose Enfield No. 5s make really consistent groups at 50, even 100 yards, some people who sold or traded the guns because of the recoil won't mention the recoil.

A plastic butt pad slips right on the stock for more comfortable shooting. I've owned my #5 "Jungle" for about five years.

Know how to identify a true #5 versus a typical (former) #4 made to look like a "Jungle"? This might be a bit subtle for some people, but compare the wooden shape/contour of the metal tab just Forward of the magazine well.
**On the #4s the metal contour is just like the cut out in the wood. On the actual #5 "Jungle", the metal contour is a bit of an hourglass or figure "8".

My Enfield book never mentioned this at all. Written by Charles Stratton.
Guys at gun shows don't want to remove upper handguards to let you look for "lightening cuts" on #5s, so compare the area fwd. of the magazine well. One or two might just lie to your face about the actual gun being an 'original' Jungle..

Thanks for the info. I have the Stratton book too but really need to get the Skennerton opus.

From what I understand, true #5 bolts original to the rifle also have hollowed bolt knobs. Mine is a shortened No. 4 without the flash hider but an original #5 buttstock I think.

 

[Slamfire]

I thought I would put in a velocity comparison between a Jungle Carbine with ball ammunition, a standard No 4 MK2, and a K31. The Swiss round is marginally faster. I consider the 7.5 Swiss a much better round because it is not rimmed. Rimmed cartridges are a pain, I have had them jam in my Mosin Nagant rifles, even though that mechanism has an interrupter. Guess what, rims of a slightly larger diameter will jam, when rims of a slightly smaller diameter won’t! This is not rocket science. I also have had rim lock in my 375 H&H Magnum when the cartridges were shuffled enough such that the base of the top round ended up behind the rim of the round beneath. The belt of the top round locked on the rim of the round below. Not something I would want in a round that might be used in a dangerous situation.

Lee Enfield No.5 Mk1Jungle Carbine

174gr HXP 70 GreekBall

23 Sept 01T=74°F

AveVel=2351
StdDev=26
ES=96
Low=2299
High=2395
N=13


174 gr Iraqi Ball

23 Sept 01T=74°F
AveVel=2365
StdDev=31
ES=76
Low=2325
High=2401
N=4


Lee Enfield No.4MkII mfgr12/53

174Greek Ball ammo mfgr1970

9-May-92T≈70°F

AveVel=2488
StdDev=12
ES=27
Low=2473
High=2500
N=5

180 grain Winchester Silvertip Factory Ammunition

8 Feb 2012 T=50°F

AveVel=2297
StdDev=14
ES=46
High=2319
Low=2273
N=10


7.5X55 Swiss K31

175 grain AP11 Swiss Ball headstamp DA78

24Mar04T=70°F

AveVel=2565
StdDev=11
ES=23
Low=2551
High=2574
N=4





Do notice that Swiss ball ammunition came with a greased bullet. The Swiss had been issuing ammunition with greased bullets since the 1888’s, as it reduced fouling and increased barrel life. It was discontinued in the 1980’s, don’t know why. Other nation states, Russia, Italy, Austria, all used grease over their steel case bullets, prior to the development of decent gilding metal jackets.

 

[303 hunter]

I have a no.4 mk1 “T” marked rifle that was sporterized many years ago, and it’s very accurate with PPU 150gr soft point. I’ve never taken a bear with it, but quite a few deer have met their maker.

 

[Ignition Override]

boom boom: I had forgotten about the #5 "Jungle's " bolt knobs being hollowed out.
Thanks.

 

[saiga308]

My K11 is a great rifle, but I don't shoot it much due to ammo availability.

thiers a alterative in 308 https://www.armslist.com/posts/8791676/kalamazoo-michigan-rifles-for-sale--swiss-k11
https://www.armslist.com/posts/7920957/greenville-georgia-rifles-for-trade--schmidt-rubin