Katrina Gun Battles - Did they happen?

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shappy0869

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Katrina was about as close to a SHTF situation as we have ever seen, and it was SHTF for those who went through it. What I am curious about is whether there were actual gun battles between homeowners and marauding thugs?

Does anyone have links to news stories or actual accounts of this happening? While I am sure there were plenty of occasions of homeowners standing guard and brandishing weapons to scare off those looking for easy prey, but how many actual gun battles happened?

Part of this is for curiosity's sake, but it will also help me in deciding if I need something more than a shotgun for just such an occurrence.

Thanks.
 
I don't know about what happened WITHIN New Orleans but I had to defend our property three times over a 8 week period from looters coming in the night. Once, I had to back off some "folks" who considered me attractive and easy prey while transporting a 250 gallon container of gasoline back to our neighborhood. An AK and a Glock made me seem a LOT less attractive and easy.

I wouldn't say that I had any gun battles. We didn't see any maurading bands of "raiders." The most I had to deal with was the 5 people coming up on my vehicle when I was stopped during that gasoline run. The rest were probably 2-3 people being opportunistic in the dark of night.

A neighbor of ours had to shoot an armed looter in his store that pulled a gun on him. I believe two broke in, and one fled.

I've said this on a number of threads, and I'll say it here as well-- a handgun will be your best option in something like we went through. You need something that you can carry with you ALL the time that doesn't get in the way and doesn't attract attention if you DO have to go out for supplies (and you WILL have to go out for SOMETHING.) At home or in the vehicle, a good carbine and a shotgun are roughly equivalent. Either will work fine. It's really just a matter of preference.

John
 
Agreed, and I already have a pistol and a shotgun. I am just trying to decide if I really can justify the expense of getting some sort of semi-auto rifle, magazines and ammo, or if my shotgun is enough and I can use the money elsewhere.
 
Realistically, you have your bases covered if you guys get anything like we had. 4 out of 5 looters agree that they aren't going to walk into a 12 gauge or a handgun.

Now, I do have a number of rifles, including a couple AKs--- because I like them. I could make it through another Katrina with a handgun and a shotgun easily. If you get a rifle, get it because you want it.


By the way-- I used to Scuba Dive occassionally in Deerfield when I lived in FL. Nice area you live in.


John
 
Oh.... I wanted to add something:


The best investment anyone can spend in preparing to defend themselves or their property is investing in THEMSELVES. Take that handgun and shotgun to a range and practice using it. Get real comfortable with them, thier recoil and get used to handling them. Learning proper stances for retention, etc. would be excellent.


Another biggie:

As soon as a state of emergency was declared Walmart took all ammunition and firearms off the racks. Anyone else selling anything firearms related (like MOST businesses) were closed. If you don't already have ammunion, you won't be getting any during an emergency.

I confess that I was lower than I'd like to have been on ammo. I think I had 200 rounds for the AK, and 50 for the Glock. Sure, I made that last--- but it just feels better to have more.


John
 
The reports of Somalian warlords roaming the streets were clearly absurd, but that doesn't mean people weren't being menaced by looters. I suspect part of the problem is that the criminal element tends to melt away when lights are shining. So when the troops came, the little gangs vanished into the woodwork. When the bulk of the troops and the attention of bright lights faded, the criminals started to go back to work. I'd actually be more afraid to live in NOLA right now than during the floods.
 
Very true Cosmoline.

I lived and worked in New Orleans for 4 years. I NEVER felt safe in the city-- and that was 10 years ago. I lived in one of the better neighborhoods and even then I had my car broken into.

Working downtown, I actually still have a few suits that have the silk lining worn and frayed in the back of the coat from carrying everywhere I went.

My understanding now is that the crime situation in NO is FAR worse than it was when I left.

John
 
John,

Yeah I like this area too.

Unfortunately, it is an area that could easily see a devastating hurricane hit (Wilma was bad enough) and south Florida seems to be a favorite training ground for terrorists ( Mohammed Atta et al), so there is a very real possibility of a period of civil unrest to perhaps prepare for.

While there are some who can afford, justify and have space for having a year's worth of food, water, fuel and ammo socked away in case of an emergency, I have to focus on perhaps a three week disaster where I can safely and realistically "bug in". Part of that is being prepared to defend myself, family and home and I am just trying to figure out the best way within the bounds of practicality and affordability.
 
shappy....

Yep... you just hit on the delimma of everyone in preparing for things.

Knowing your area's risks (hurricanes in particular) you're probably in the right frame of mind in preparing for 3 weeks or so. Economics and physical space are always a problem that has to be weighed. I'm preparing for 2 months of disaster simply because that was how long we were in it. I figure I'll prepare for what I have seen happen.

Experience has shown me that if you aren't in the large cities that get affected, you will be essentially forgotten about by emergency personnel. In our case, we had better be ready to take care of ourselves.


I would suggest that you read up on some of the sites that are dedicated to SHTF written by people that lived through Andrew. I read a couple really good ones in the past, but can't remember the URL. I think being in Deerfield, Andrew will give you a GOOD idea of what the worst can be. I can't imagine anywhere in FL having it worse than what Andrew did to you guys.



Edit: For serious SHTF discussions with a fun "zombie" overlaying, check out the site I have in my signature, Zombiehunters.org. It really is a good place to consider this type of thing. They have lax rules on language, so consider yourself warned if you don't want to read some curse words. Still, its a great community.

John
 
I was lucky for Andrew. Although I was living further south in Hollywood at the time, Andrew hit even further south than that and I actually had more effects from Wilma a couple of years ago than I did with Andrew in '92.

Even so, I do prepare for hurricane season (actually always prepared now due to the threat of terrorism) with food, water, a generator, fuel and even a portable A/C unit (you know how bad humidity and heat can be in the summer).

The reality is that I want an EBR for no other reason than because I like them and I am just trying to find a way to justify, in my head and with my wife, a real reason to get one instead of spending the money on perhaps shotgun courses or on something totally frivolous like a bigger TV.
 
LMAO... now we are getting to it...

You love EBR's :) I'm sure you'll come up with really good rationales to give the wife. I work on these constantly with my wife. At the present, I am working the angle that if HR 1022 passes we will NEVER be able to have the option of one. So far that's working pretty good.

I'll have to come up with something new once we kill HR 1022.

So far, I've convinced my wife that:

My Saiga 308 is an excellent deer rifle (and it is)
My Vector underfolder is perfect for home defense and vehicle defense
A wood-stocked Romanian AK is a perfect "brush carbine" for deer season.
I need a new Glock because she keeps mine in her car.
My Finn Mosin will save us money because its cheaper to shoot.
A Ruger 10/22 is great because she can shoot snakes with it (she HATES snakes)
A Remington 870 is good because EVERYONE needs a shotgun (she bought this line)

I personally think she is just humoring me, but you never know. My wife is a professional shopper who can explain to me why spending $300 on clothes that I don't need actually SAVED ME MONEY because they were on sale.


I'm already working on the reasons I need a SBR, a SBS, and a couple suppressors. I've planted the seed in her mind by her commenting that I don't hear her talking to me sometimes--- I explained that when we were young we shot a lot without proper ear protection.

John
 
As much as I like to blame my wife for having to justify things, I really can only look at myself. Buying things no longer give me any happiness (not that they ever did) and I am a real buyer's remorse/wanting is better than having type person. So if I can come up with a good reason to justify the purchase, I will feel much better after the initial excitement wears off.

Unfortunately, I only get to the range about once a month, so my guns spend the vast majority of their time collecting dust. I want to know that adding one more will have justification behind it.

However, I guess it is good that the reality of the situation seems to be that the mere presence of an armed homeowner is enough to deter most looters during an event like Katrina. We know we are dealing with mostly cowards who are looking to take advantage of the weak rather than some fundamentalist zealot who is willing to die in the process of trying to kill me or my family (like what our troops see in combat today). It really is a different situation.
 
Interesting discusion you guys have going.

I think about this from the perspective of an earthquake since I live in the San Fernando Valley which is part of the city of Los Angeles.

Where I live it is pretty nice and safe but who knows what would happenn if an 8.0 earthquake shut services down for a month or longer?

Here is my rationale for having a rifle in addition to the pistol & shotgun.

I will start off by saying the chances of this scenario are very, very, remote.

With a rifle you can reach out and touch someone at a much farther distance than with a shotgun. It is remote but what if a group of individuals were determined to get to you and your family? Say they try to advance from 2 sides/directions (front & back, north & south, etc.) - with a rifle you can keep them further away so it would take them longer and maybe make it a little harder so they would try elsewhere.

Also, with a rifle most people are much more accurate at any range when compared to a pistol or shotgun. What I mean is that even at close distances I can hit the center of the "o" on a coke can rapidly and repeatedly with a rifle better than with a pistol. So IF I had to stop someone and all I saw was their hand or head peeking around a corner at 25 or 50 yards it would be much easier to stop them with a rifle.

Now first I would have the pistol (plus multiple back-up!) then a shotgun and then a rifle. Then I would work on duplicates and lots of ammo.
 
After reading my post I rememberred an old cowboy saying I learned many years ago when I lived in New Mexico.

It went something like this..."you can't catch a man with a good horse and a rifle"

alternate versions "you can't catch a cowboy with a horse and a winchester".


It means if you can put a couple hundred yards between you and the posse chasing you all you have to do I get down sight your rifle and pick them off when they get in range - you don't need cover or to hide.

If your rifle has a longer range than thiers (i.e shotgun or pistol) then you have the advantage and they can't reach you.
 
I heard a few different tales from some guys that were working in .gov positions.

First that there were a few gun "battles" some to the point where they had have resupply dropped in a few times.

I also know that the guys defending the Federal Reserve were ordered to weapons free and SOP was to shoot anyone approaching thier buildings that had weapons visible.

I just caught what I overheard on some heated phone conversations, a couple of which I had to walk away from.
 
Realistically I think any gun would work just the sight of it would scare thugs into considering other houses, ammo I think 100-200 rounds should cover you. I really think investing in a generator water and dried food would be more important than owning a .308 for the situation not that the .308 wont help:evil: . Plus it’s a good excuse to by all that ammo and a shiny new AR:evil: . But I think even a 10-22 will get most thieves to think other wise.
 
Gun battles happen, most were very one sided.

The police also went around commedering vehicles from civilians. If you had a 4wd or any truck for that matter it belonged to the NOLA PD. There were many police cruising around in Cadillac Escalades because they cleared out the local dealers.
 
shappy,

I think you DO need a rifle.

However, if money is an issue, it doesn't necessarily have to be an expensive detachable-magazine fed EBR. There are other options you should consider. I'd suggest getting a good SKS, a pocketful of stripper clips and outfitting said rifle with one of the new aftermarket rear sights ( http://www.tech-sights.com/ ). That and a decent amount of 7.62X39 ammo should cover that base for you completely adequately.

No it isn't glamorous, no it won't give shivers to the hoplophobes. But it'll do the job for you and not cost an arm and a leg. IMHO you need a rifle in addition to your shotgun not because the shotgun is not adequate to any reasonable defensive task (especially if slugs are available) but because you may need to arm someone else in the household with a long gun.

Why not just add another shotgun? Well, there are things a rifle can do that a shotgun can't, in some situations. Mainly, you can reach further with a rifle if it is ever necessary to do so. Not necessarily likely in a genuine defensive situation- but possible.

One other thing to consider as an additional long gun (to the shotgun and whatever rifle you decide on) is a pistol caliber carbine. This whole class of firearm is so user-friendly that it shouldn't require any argument at all to earn consideration as a defensive firearm. The less expensive members of this class (HiPoint 995) will cost less than $200 with some judicious shopping, the moderately expensive ones (KelTec Sub2000) about $300. The good thing about the KelTec is that it comes in versions set up to use any one of several types of pistol magazines. If you already have one of those pistols then magazines and ammo won't be a problem for you. As a bonus, the KelTec folds into a compact package for transport and unfolds to useable status quickly and easily.

Just a couple more options here to consider, fwiw. Hope it helps,

lpl/nc
 
I live in an area that has 3 roads in and out and in the winter all 3 close on a regular basis. Plus, the San Andreas fault runs right by my back door. An SKS and a Glock 27 are my choices, along with a loaded weekender pack and a pantry full of canned good and stove fuel. I think your choice of an EBR is pretty practical if you get a carbine with a collapsible stock. Stocking up on food for a year is not that hard if you buy a few extra cans of stuff a week plus a lot of chili in those little stackable boxes.

My co workers used to make fun of me for being a "survivalist" until last year when the roads were closed for about a week because of land slides. Pretty amazing how quickly the supermarkets sell out when trucks can't get through on a regular basis.
 
Shappy...

I know where you're coming from. After Jean we had some looters come up into our subdivision from Dade county (license plates). They were driving around all day casing the neighborhoods and looking for empty houses. They hit the convenience store around the corner and really looted and trashed the Mobile home community nearby. I had a shotgun at the time, but since have picked up several handguns and both my wife and I CCW. It was some comfort sitting in line to buy gas at 5am in the dark after Wilma knowing that I had something with me, and it was legal. We have made baby steps getting ready for such emergencies. Buying a generator, plywood, extra fuel cans, propane stove, battery operated TV, etc. All done a little at a time in the off season and during hurricane season. I advise you to do the same. Picking up something here and there as you go and as you can afford it is a good idea and I advise you consider doing the same. Just prioritize, you'll get there. Where do you shoot?
 
The only gunplay I almost wandered into happened at the gas station where our Red Cross team liked to get morning coffee.
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=3521779
Everything was taped off by the time we rolled in looking for a cup o' terrible gas station coffee that morning.
We had plenty of dire "a cannibal army is swarming down to crack your heads and feast on the goo inside" type warnings, but it all ended up being panic and rumor in Texas. In Louisiana we had real problems, mostly people trying to call in bomb threats to FEMA and dialing the Red Cross number that was next to it on the informational handouts. That sucked.
 
Lee,

You do bring up a good point about having a long-gun for another person, or even as a backup.

I appreciate everyone's input and advice.

Funny, I posted a similar question on the Firingline and it was shut down after only a few replies. The excuse? "...these threads invariably end up going off the deep end. We'd rather avoid that from the very beginning."

I would hardly call this going off the deep-end.

Any wonder why I prefer this forum?
 
Get a Mosin and some steel core ammo for a little over $100 dollars. I got my M44 for $75 out the door at the last gun show I went to. It is a cheap way to obtain a rifle for a just in case situation.
 
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