Katrina Gun Battles - Did they happen?
- Thread starter shappy0869
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MD_Willington
Member
Never!
He's one of the beautiful people... they put us serfs in jail...
He's one of the beautiful people... they put us serfs in jail...
mordechaianiliewicz
Member
It's all about options, and likely threat, and cost to you.
A handgun will likely protect you in 90 out of a hundred situations. A shotgun will likely protect you in 95 out of a hundred occasions. But a rifle will likely do the 99% job. Now, what rifle? That's a different story.
Because of the fact that we have no idea how an SHTF will go down, will it be slouching in? Will it be sudden? Will it be long term/permanent TEOTWAWKI?
I'd suggest a semi-auto rifle, SKS type thing (atleast) simply based upon the theory that a rifle will cut through cover. Definitely penetrate cars, etc. It can allow you to hold off any minor goblins, and give you a chance against major threats that you wouldn't be able to handle if you only had a pistol or shotgun, and allow you to defend against flanking maneuvers.
The last thing in the world you'd want to handle is a few looters with stolen rifles, when you haven't got anything else.
Prepare for the extra threat.
A handgun will likely protect you in 90 out of a hundred situations. A shotgun will likely protect you in 95 out of a hundred occasions. But a rifle will likely do the 99% job. Now, what rifle? That's a different story.
Because of the fact that we have no idea how an SHTF will go down, will it be slouching in? Will it be sudden? Will it be long term/permanent TEOTWAWKI?
I'd suggest a semi-auto rifle, SKS type thing (atleast) simply based upon the theory that a rifle will cut through cover. Definitely penetrate cars, etc. It can allow you to hold off any minor goblins, and give you a chance against major threats that you wouldn't be able to handle if you only had a pistol or shotgun, and allow you to defend against flanking maneuvers.
The last thing in the world you'd want to handle is a few looters with stolen rifles, when you haven't got anything else.
Prepare for the extra threat.
rogerjames
member
Shappy,
We're neighbors, I live in Coconut Creek. I personally think the handgun and shotgun are sufficient. The long range abilities of a rifle are really irrelevant unless you are prepared to spend the rest of your life in prison. Picking someone off from rifle distance would be hard to justify. A fear of imminent death from long range fails to meet the requirements for using deadly force unless some extenuating circumstances were occurring such as the other party launching projectiles into your home etc from long distance. I agree with the argument however that a rifle (AR/AK) gives you greater accuracy at close range AND more round capacity without reloading. I want one too! I figure that the rifle would be most needed in the unlikely event of a local invasion from enemies of the state or some organized terrorist act. Even in that case, better be damn sure your aiming at a combatant, might be hard to identify from long distance in an urban environment, unless of course they are all wearing uniforms I don't have any long guns currently. Don't have a place to secure them when I'm not home. Any recommendations besides a big ass heavy safe that I have no room for in my tiny condo?
We're neighbors, I live in Coconut Creek. I personally think the handgun and shotgun are sufficient. The long range abilities of a rifle are really irrelevant unless you are prepared to spend the rest of your life in prison. Picking someone off from rifle distance would be hard to justify. A fear of imminent death from long range fails to meet the requirements for using deadly force unless some extenuating circumstances were occurring such as the other party launching projectiles into your home etc from long distance. I agree with the argument however that a rifle (AR/AK) gives you greater accuracy at close range AND more round capacity without reloading. I want one too! I figure that the rifle would be most needed in the unlikely event of a local invasion from enemies of the state or some organized terrorist act. Even in that case, better be damn sure your aiming at a combatant, might be hard to identify from long distance in an urban environment, unless of course they are all wearing uniforms
I don't have any long guns currently. Don't have a place to secure them when I'm not home. Any recommendations besides a big ass heavy safe that I have no room for in my tiny condo?Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
True with a couple of very important reservations: terrain and numbers.
Can you see them well enough to effectively use your longer range? Can they use cover to get close enough to suppress your fire while others maneuver to flank you?
As far as food storage goes...store what you eat and eat what you store. Works better that way all around. You just buy some extra every time you shop until you reach your target...three months, six months. Whatever. Then you rotate so you aren't faced with getting rid of food older than its shelf life. Nor are you faced with a radical change in diet in an emergency. It can be done without breaking the budget over time.
I think many of you overestimate the abilities and intelligence of your average BG. Suppressing fire and flanking maneuvers? Come on now. While there may be a band of ex-infantry villains out there, the rest will most likely realize they're facing accurate (you all have been hitting the range, right?) fire and take cover to either exchange a few rounds with a gangster-type hold on their pistol or take off running. Criminals don't want to lose their lives over a few bucks and will definitely seek out an easier target.
Now it may be different in a true SHTF situation where all of the government is knocked out of commission and it becomes less looting for personal gain than scavenging for survival.
Now it may be different in a true SHTF situation where all of the government is knocked out of commission and it becomes less looting for personal gain than scavenging for survival.
Medusa
Member
Never underestimate the OpFor, if you know nothing about their abilities expect them to be as good as you. While the suppression&flanking might be a little rare it doesn't hurt to be ready for that. It can come down to fierce CQB, so expect the best, prepare for worst.
JWarren, thanks for the practical information - VERY informative!
I have put a little thought to this when buying arms - and it seems to fit in well based on your experience.
I bought a Beretta M9/92, it is big, reliable, and extremely easy to shoot its 16 rounds of 9mm on target FAST (if ever necessary), it can obviously be place in a holster for convenience, and it goes along very nicely with my CX4 - uses the same mags! Full-cap mags are cheap and easy to come by - even legal-to-own pre-94 ones here in NY. The CX4 is compact & handy, and will extend the effective range out a few more yards, and even my kid can shoot it accurately.
I have the rifles & shotgun choices well-covered too, but it'll be tough to pass on the Berettas when grabbing protection.
I have put a little thought to this when buying arms - and it seems to fit in well based on your experience.
I bought a Beretta M9/92, it is big, reliable, and extremely easy to shoot its 16 rounds of 9mm on target FAST (if ever necessary), it can obviously be place in a holster for convenience, and it goes along very nicely with my CX4 - uses the same mags! Full-cap mags are cheap and easy to come by - even legal-to-own pre-94 ones here in NY. The CX4 is compact & handy, and will extend the effective range out a few more yards, and even my kid can shoot it accurately.
I have the rifles & shotgun choices well-covered too, but it'll be tough to pass on the Berettas when grabbing protection.
Since this thread wasn't taking about living in a permanaent Post-apocalyptic world or the mindless dead coming for your brains, I want to mention a couple of things that have come up regarding the choice of firearms (handgun, shotgun, rifle)
Wrong. A shotgun will not protect you 95% of the time, and a rifle will not protect you 99% of the time. Why do I say this? Because you WILL NOT have that shotgun or rifle on you all the time. You CAN'T carry it all the time.
Seriously guys, It just isn't that way in a geological disaster. If you have the foresight to know the need to protect yourself, there is a good chance that you have other property or family. That means you have WORK to do. You aren't just going to be sitting there waiting for it to be over. Well, some will, but they are bonafied lazy jack-@sses if everyone else is working.
No matter how much preparation you do, you will have things that require the use of both of your hands. That long gun will not be in easy reach. Also, no matter how much you prepare, you WILL have needs to go out into public and you WILL sense that it isn't all that appropraite to be walking around your neighbors as such with a long-gun strapped over your back. In a time where people are trying to pull together in cooperation, you will be putting out a strong indication that you don't trust them. Furthermore, it reminds a lot of people that they aren't safe-- oh they know it-- but don't rub people's face in it. Walking around like Rambo isn't going to get you very far.
With a handgun as your first priority, you will be armed ALL the TIME. I'll take having SOMETHING on me over having my AK in a jeep or at the house anyday. You can go into public with it. EVERYONE around here open-carried a handgun on their belt at all times in the aftermath-- and it was no big deal.
I have to agree with Nil on this. Like I said, I am considering the more likely geological disaster scenerio rather than something out of "Mad Max." Flanking and suppressive fire? Ain't gonna happen. That is WAY too much effort in a time when EVERYONE is feeling sick, is dehydrated from working and not drinking enough water, miserable from the heat, and and completely exhausted from the effort of simply living.
I have to say this frankly. If a group of looters have the intelligence and organization to develop some kind of column that will use flanking maneuvers and suppressive fire, you frankly don't have anything they want. You'd be a waste of time when they could go after BIG targets. Think I am only speculating? Well, maybe... but I know the mentality that EVERYONE has in those events. Prioritizing what you do (or in the case of looters, what you go after) is crucial. You simply don't have the energy and resources to do everything. Also, you constantly feel a sense that there is never the time you need to get everything addressed that needs attention. The 101st Looter detactment will be going straight for what will yield the most benefit. That ain't your house.
Even the idea of the 101st Looter detachment is a fantasy. Your looters are FAR more likely to be a disorganized 4-5 people -- or at worst a few more. And they aren't following military tactics.
You'd be a LOT better off learning about 3,000 other things that you will find that you NEED to know in that situation.
I am not saying that you don't NEED firearms, and I DO have rifles and shotguns. I just see a lot of people operating and planning from very unrealistic expectations. If you plan poorly, you can't be surprised when your outcome is poor as well.
Edit: I forgot one serious consideration. In practically all family and property needs, a long-range rifle is going to have very few times it is NEEDED. If someone is 300 yards away, the chances are GREAT that they aren't an imminent threat to your or yours. Taking that shot is far more likely to get you charged with murder when everything is all sorted out than do anything else. Threats to you and yours (if they are threats) will be well within range of a shotgun or pistol-- although I kept my AK at hand for home defense--but that was my preference. I never felt that I had to pull out the ole' Remington 700 to take out "looters" that I could barely see with my naked eyes.
John
Wrong. A shotgun will not protect you 95% of the time, and a rifle will not protect you 99% of the time. Why do I say this? Because you WILL NOT have that shotgun or rifle on you all the time. You CAN'T carry it all the time.
Seriously guys, It just isn't that way in a geological disaster. If you have the foresight to know the need to protect yourself, there is a good chance that you have other property or family. That means you have WORK to do. You aren't just going to be sitting there waiting for it to be over. Well, some will, but they are bonafied lazy jack-@sses if everyone else is working.
No matter how much preparation you do, you will have things that require the use of both of your hands. That long gun will not be in easy reach. Also, no matter how much you prepare, you WILL have needs to go out into public and you WILL sense that it isn't all that appropraite to be walking around your neighbors as such with a long-gun strapped over your back. In a time where people are trying to pull together in cooperation, you will be putting out a strong indication that you don't trust them. Furthermore, it reminds a lot of people that they aren't safe-- oh they know it-- but don't rub people's face in it. Walking around like Rambo isn't going to get you very far.
With a handgun as your first priority, you will be armed ALL the TIME. I'll take having SOMETHING on me over having my AK in a jeep or at the house anyday. You can go into public with it. EVERYONE around here open-carried a handgun on their belt at all times in the aftermath-- and it was no big deal.
I have to agree with Nil on this. Like I said, I am considering the more likely geological disaster scenerio rather than something out of "Mad Max." Flanking and suppressive fire? Ain't gonna happen. That is WAY too much effort in a time when EVERYONE is feeling sick, is dehydrated from working and not drinking enough water, miserable from the heat, and and completely exhausted from the effort of simply living.
I have to say this frankly. If a group of looters have the intelligence and organization to develop some kind of column that will use flanking maneuvers and suppressive fire, you frankly don't have anything they want. You'd be a waste of time when they could go after BIG targets. Think I am only speculating? Well, maybe... but I know the mentality that EVERYONE has in those events. Prioritizing what you do (or in the case of looters, what you go after) is crucial. You simply don't have the energy and resources to do everything. Also, you constantly feel a sense that there is never the time you need to get everything addressed that needs attention. The 101st Looter detactment will be going straight for what will yield the most benefit. That ain't your house.
Even the idea of the 101st Looter detachment is a fantasy. Your looters are FAR more likely to be a disorganized 4-5 people -- or at worst a few more. And they aren't following military tactics.
You'd be a LOT better off learning about 3,000 other things that you will find that you NEED to know in that situation.
I am not saying that you don't NEED firearms, and I DO have rifles and shotguns. I just see a lot of people operating and planning from very unrealistic expectations. If you plan poorly, you can't be surprised when your outcome is poor as well.
Edit: I forgot one serious consideration. In practically all family and property needs, a long-range rifle is going to have very few times it is NEEDED. If someone is 300 yards away, the chances are GREAT that they aren't an imminent threat to your or yours. Taking that shot is far more likely to get you charged with murder when everything is all sorted out than do anything else. Threats to you and yours (if they are threats) will be well within range of a shotgun or pistol-- although I kept my AK at hand for home defense--but that was my preference. I never felt that I had to pull out the ole' Remington 700 to take out "looters" that I could barely see with my naked eyes.
John
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shappy0869
Member
Perception and Reality
The most important thing I have learned from my research and from first hand accounts, like John's, is that perception and reality are often two very different things.
Many just assume that they need to prepare for the Red Dawn or Invasion USA movie scenario. In all likelihood, in the event of a natural disaster or terrorist attack that ends up tying up law enforcement and other government personnel for days or weeks, the reality of the situation is likely to be much more mundane. Yes you will want to have arms to defend your family and your possessions (trying to take my food and water is akin to trying to take my life, morally, if not legally). However, those looking to liberate you from your possessions will appear very threatening, but at the first sign of trouble (read: gun), they will look for an easier target.
I plan to add a rifle to supplement my pistol and shotgun so that I have flexibility and so I have something that I can give to a neighbor or my wife in case it is needed. I am seriously considering the Kel-Tec SU-16 because it shoots 5.56, takes AR mags and, most importantly, is light (under 5 lbs) and it folds in half for easy storage.
I don't plan to be out patrolling my neighborhood looking for trouble. I plan to "bug-in" and be with my family as much as I can until things get back to normal. In the days following hurricane Wilma, we all just sat around listening to the news on the radio. It was pretty boring. Luckily, a cool front came in after the hurricane, so we didn't suffer Katrina like August heat and humidity.
Ultimately, you need more water and food than you do bullets.
The most important thing I have learned from my research and from first hand accounts, like John's, is that perception and reality are often two very different things.
Many just assume that they need to prepare for the Red Dawn or Invasion USA movie scenario. In all likelihood, in the event of a natural disaster or terrorist attack that ends up tying up law enforcement and other government personnel for days or weeks, the reality of the situation is likely to be much more mundane. Yes you will want to have arms to defend your family and your possessions (trying to take my food and water is akin to trying to take my life, morally, if not legally). However, those looking to liberate you from your possessions will appear very threatening, but at the first sign of trouble (read: gun), they will look for an easier target.
I plan to add a rifle to supplement my pistol and shotgun so that I have flexibility and so I have something that I can give to a neighbor or my wife in case it is needed. I am seriously considering the Kel-Tec SU-16 because it shoots 5.56, takes AR mags and, most importantly, is light (under 5 lbs) and it folds in half for easy storage.
I don't plan to be out patrolling my neighborhood looking for trouble. I plan to "bug-in" and be with my family as much as I can until things get back to normal. In the days following hurricane Wilma, we all just sat around listening to the news on the radio. It was pretty boring. Luckily, a cool front came in after the hurricane, so we didn't suffer Katrina like August heat and humidity.
Ultimately, you need more water and food than you do bullets.
Excellent way to end this one. Thanks to all the folks that didn't indulge in foolish fantasy.
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