Keeping a gun in your trunk in NY

[Checkers]

So earlier today I was talking to a friend of mine, and I forget how we got on the subject but we were talking about defensive weapons we had. I mentioned the breaker bar in my car (That I actually use for working on the car) and he nonchalantly tells me he has a shotgun in his car's trunk. We were in his truck at the time, not his car, so I didn't see it, but I tried to explain to him he can't do that. I started to explain but then realized I know laws about having a loaded gun in your can and such, but nothing about having one locked in the trunk, and having the ammo in a separate place. Can anyone shed some light on this please? What are the laws regarding having an unloaded gun lucked in your trunk in NY? Not the city mind you, in Putnam or Westchester county , since we live on the border and cross over almost every day.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Checkers:

FOPA transit may permit an unloaded gun in your trunk.... It's supposed to, but New York feels it's better than the rest of us.... (Well, maybe Mass, CA, and NJ, too .)

Loaded probably will get you a nice visit in the big house....

FOPA transit also presumes transit. You can stop for a potty break, a meal, or fuel, but I'm going to say "not overnight", and your starting and ending points for the trip must be other states.

I don't know what the NY laws are exactly, but I wouldn't expect anything but empty and locked in the trunk for NY residents (with the appropriate papers) would be illegal. Residents of other states can forget that, too....

(Gotta get to the range somehow ....)

(Here in OH, at least for a few more months if we get lucky in Columbus, unlicensed folks with handguns in the trunk must also have empty magazines and/or speedloaders. Licensed or unlicensed long guns must be empty, with empty magazines or speedloaders. En-Bloc and stripper clips are exempt because a lot of ammunition is sold that way. Some common sense leaked in, somehow.)

Regards,

 

[Checkers]

Alright, thank you very much.

On a slightly unrelated note, when I go to the range I'm always worried about keeping my guns in the car because I have a hatchback, so I don't have a separate trunk. Could this get me in trouble if I get pulled over, or will the officer understand as long as I have it unloaded, away from ammo, and secured?

 

[SMMAssociates]

Checkers:

Can't say for New York, but the general rule is "as far away from the driver as possible"....

If the bag/box is locked, you should be fine with it in the rear area someplace. Unloaded magazines might also be a good idea.

Or you can buy a new car ....

Here in OH the above would be acceptable, with the caveat that all magazines and speedloaders must be empty unless you're a licensee. (Long guns must be empty, open action, and all that. Empty mags, too, but en-bloc and stripper clips are OK.)

Regards,

 

[GRIZ22]

will the officer understand as long as I have it unloaded, away from ammo, and secured?

Not sure of laws in your state but the officer would understand better if you have a lock on the gun and/or the gun case.

 

[Checkers]

To SMMAssociates, my friend also has a pickup with a locking tool box. Could he keep it in that, with the ammo in the cab? As for my car, could I keep the gun in a locked metal case in the back seat or hatch with ammo on the floor of the passenger seat or something?

To GRIZ22, I have a metal case with a combination lock on either side, as well as a key lock latch on either side, but the latch is usually unlocked, so the combination locks keep it secured. Would that be ok?

Also, my car is VERY small, a 1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse. When I use the metal case (As opposed to a soft case) the only way I can fit it in my car is if I lean the passenger seat as far back as I can, and leave it next to me on the seat. Of course it's locked, and I put the ammo in the back, but could I get in legal trouble for that, even though it's my only option for a locked case?

 

[SMMAssociates]

Checkers:

IANAL, and I'm not totally familiar with NY law, but it's likely that as long as you (and your friend) have whatever papers necessary to own the gun, the tool box would likely be fine. Probably the same for the hatch area. I doubt if anything on or under either front seat would fly, though. Does the Eclipse have a back seat? The floor back there might be OK, and behind the back seat somehow would likely be OK, too. (Many pickup trucks allow you to flip part of the passenger seat forward to store something, too.)

The "spirit" of most of these laws, usually hinted at by "Officer Safety", although our safety seems to be irrelevant, is that the driver needs to either get out of the vehicle to get to the gun, or otherwise indulge in a series of highly visible overt acts to get to it. Like flipping that pickup seat out of the way....

This is to give the Officer a serious sign that you're about to produce a weapon....

BTW, you probably should use a metal case if the gun isn't locked in the trunk, too. Belt & suspenders to lock it when it's in your friend's toolbox, I suppose, but while the Officer might shake his/her head, you would be well into the "spirit"....

Here in OH, just having one round in a magazine or speedloader (for a gun you have in the vehicle) makes it loaded. (If you're a licensee, it doesn't matter for handguns.) This bit of silliness may have been a legislative oversight, as it corrected a prior bit of silliness that made having one round in the vehicle having the gun loaded.... In short, no way for a non-licensee to transport a handgun or long gun at all....

Regards,

 

[GRIZ22]

To GRIZ22, I have a metal case with a combination lock on either side, as well as a key lock latch on either side, but the latch is usually unlocked, so the combination locks keep it secured. Would that be ok?


That would seem to fit the requirements of FOPA and even NJ with their ridiculous laws. I think anyone would have a hard time trying to say your case wasn'r locked if it was secured as you say.

 

[Checkers]

SMMAssociates, in NY we don't need licenses or anything for long guns. The only thing I have that documents me buying the gun is the receipt whose location is not currently known..... My Eclipse does have a back seat, but down the center (Where the driveshaft is) has a large bump that would prevent it from laying properly, but my backseats do fold down, and I have subwoofers back there, and there is a nice little spot between the two that a shotgun would fit perfectly into. Would that be considered a 'concealed weapon'? Also, I was thinking about keeping a cheap single shot shotgun in the car for whatever emergencies may arise, but I'm sure a LEO doesn't want to hear "self defense". Are there any other reason to keep a gun in the car?

 

[SMMAssociates]

Checkers:

The problem with putting a long gun in the back seat is that most states want them visible, unloaded, and with the actions open. Or at least unloaded.... And difficult to get to. I have the feeling that everybody would be running around with a shotgun if this was normally legal. Unloaded, it's pretty much just a club, which also may be restricted. (Truckers carry a sort of baseball bat to check their tires. Those seem to be legal, at least in a truck, but it could be just a "wink", too - something that LEO's "don't see"....)

About the only reasons that should always pass, presuming the gun's unloaded and properly stored for transport, are "to or from the range" or "to or from the dealer".... Self defense is usually illegal in more than a few states without some kind of licensing, and a couple more where you can't even get licensed....

Regards,

 

[Checkers]

So maybe if I had it unloaded, action open, with a trigger lock on, where it would be a pain in the ass to get to, it would be ok?

 

[SMMAssociates]

Checkers:

That's pretty much what's required.....

Time for a NY Gun Law maven to weigh in though - it would be no problem in OH (other than that silly "loaded magazines" thing), but NY seems to require that you perform self defense British style. That's where your assailant gets injured chasing you as you run away, and you get sued....

Regards,

 

[Remo223]

Dont' know about NY...but I was told once by a sheriff I'm ok with a gun in one saddlebag, and the ammo in the other saddlebag...on my motorcycle. This was before I had a permit to carry. But of course LEOs aren't experts on the law either. So maybe I wasn't ok doing that. who knows.

The point is, I really think you're ok with a hatchback.

 

[PPS43]

You are probably looking for this section of New York Environmental Conservation Law, Title 9, 11-0931(2): "No firearm [...] in or on a motor vehicle unless it is unloaded in both the chamber and the magazine".

 

[SMMAssociates]

PPS43

Thanks!

Sounds like Ohio's setup.... My understanding is that the FOPA rules don't require empty magazines, though.... But I could be wrong - I made a mistake in 1975....

NY doesn't like to honor FOPA, anyway....

Checkers probably would be better off with a ball bat, I think.

Regards,

 

[Checkers]

PPS43

That is absolutely perfect, thank you. I think tomorrow I'll go look at some cheap shotguns, maybe single shot or something, and throw that in the back, along with the page you sent me printed out an laminated. Thanks again!

 

[SMMAssociates]

Checkers:

I took a look at the section that PPS43 linked....

It may be a little closer to "hunting" than you need to be to stay legal when just driving about....

Reminds me of our friends at the Ohio Department of Natural Resources.... In 2004, when OH's CHL program started, issued a regulation that essentially said that while you could carry about anything you could lift (and was compatible with the rules for the particular season), you couldn't carry - as a licensee - a concealed handgun.... Their reason was pretty much "because we can".... (Not to mention Officer Safety.... Which, of course, precludes OUR safety often enough....) This was rescinded a couple years later.

Anyway, I think you may find that if you're not on the way to or from a hunting trip, a range, a dealer, or a FFL, it may be a very bad idea to have that gun with you....

You may be nibbling at the corners of the NY law here - I expect you and your lawyer might get to know each other very well convincing a Judge....

Here in OH we used to have a thing called the "Affirmative Defense". Essentially, anybody could carry about any weapon (concealed or otherwise) if a "reasonable and prudent man" might want to do so. If you're the guy, for example, who takes alarm calls at your day job, tucking a handgun into your belt was fine. VERY FUZZY law, but they guy making the company bank run generally was OK. When OH finally got licensing in 2004, the new law cut "handguns" out of the "Affirmative Defense", but left it in place for long guns. So, an unlicensed person could stick a stockless Mossy on his front seat, loaded, and be legal, but not tuck a 9mm into his belt....

Logic? We don't need no steenkin logic....

However, back to topic, DO check with a local lawyer with some firearms experience first. Having that shotty in the car may be a ticket for a quick ride to the lockup. It seems that many parts of NY feel that getting dead is legally preferable to protecting yourself....

Regards,

 

[PPS43]

SMMAssociates,

I quoted Environmental Conservation Law only because I did not find anything in Penal Law on the subject, and whatever is not illegal should be legal. But the commentary in Looseleaf "Firearms and Weapons Law" by Lt. Lee O. Thomas and Jeffrey Chamberlain says that ECL prohibition against loaded long guns in or on motor vehicles is not limited to "while hunting".

I'm in no way an expert on NY law, so I can certainly be missing something.

 

[22-rimfire]

In my state, loaded long guns are forbidden. I feel sure it is a carry over from state hunting regulations. You can not have a loaded long gun even if you have the carry permit. I suspect NY is the same. I don't know about actions being open and all that stuff. Unloaded is unloaded as far as I'm concerned. But keep the ammunition separated from the unloaded gun. A box (preferably locked) would be my choice for that if I did not know every wrinkle of the law.

Be careful you don't wander into NJ unless you are on your way home or going to the range.

 

[Checkers]

SMMAssociates, you're right. I was a little too gung-ho, and will be talking to a few different people who would hopefully know the exact laws.

PPS43, I really appreciate all the help, and if I figure out exactly what the laws say, I will post them here.

22-rimfire, I would have the gun far out of reach, with either a trigger lock, or a chain through the action, and have the ammo locked up separately. I assume a locked glove box would not be good enough, right? Also, I don't go into NJ for any reason, haha.

 

[toivo]

I live in upstate New York. This is just an anecdote that carries no legal weight, but here goes...

I had an accident in my truck when I was on my way home from the range: I got T-boned at an intersection. I was not badly hurt, but the EMT and cops insisted that I had to go by ambulance to the ER because of risk of head injury. My truck was undrivable and had to be towed.

I had two rifles in cases in the cab behind the seat. I didn't want my truck sitting in the tow yard with my rifles in it, so I asked the cop what I should do. He told me that they would secure them for me and I could claim them later at the station. The cases were not locked. The rifles were unloaded, with snap caps in the chambers. The ammo was in a unlocked box on the passenger-side floor. All of this seemed to be fine with the cops, because they didn't say anything about it, either at the scene or later when I went to pick my stuff up at the station.

I think the intent of the law is that you shouldn't be able to load and fire your long gun from the driver's seat. Considering that I have a New York State pistol permit and can legally have a loaded pistol anywhere on me or in the vehicle, this does seem kind of silly, but that's the law.

 

[22-rimfire]

I would check with a gun shop or two before I got too carried away on chaining unloaded long guns. They may be able to tell you specifically where to find the rule or you could call your State Attorney General's office. But you know what they say... an ounce of prevention. My impression is that NJ is downright ridiculous on their laws transporting guns (and ammunition) and I would also suspect the NYC-plex laws would be similar.

I agree with toivo, it is usually the intent of the law unless they suspect you of some wrong doing. Then they can get picky. I operate on the same principle when I am transporting guns say for hunting, shooting, or to the range. I just keep the ammo a bit out of reach. In my case, I keep the ammo in my tool box of my pickup and the guns behind the seat usually. No locks. Just unloaded.

 

[Checkers]

I spoke to my local gun store owner and he said it's fine as long as the gun is in the hatch/trunk and unloaded. A cop might give me a hard time and use the gun as an excuse to look around some more or question me, but it's not illegal (Atleast in Westchester and Putnam)

 

[Onward Allusion]

Really got to be careful on transport - even unloaded with ammo in separate compartment. Indiana for example won't even allow you to transport a handgun without a LCH (CCW permit) from either IN or another State.

 

[archigos]

The only law I know of is that they may not be loaded in a vehicle. My understanding is that this is to prevent hunting from within vehicles - its not uncommon in rural areas of NY for folks to slowly cruise down the road looking out for deer on either side and just pull out a long gun and take them when they spot them.

I transport my rifles unloaded with no trigger lock in the same unlocked case as loaded magazines.