legal question: car was stolen with hand gun securely in trunk

[garrettej8]

Here is my situation.

I had my .40 s&w hand gun securely locked and placed in my trunk before I went to work last week. After work I was going over a friends house with the intention of cleaning my hand gun but lost track of time and never actually brought the firearm in my friends house to clean it. I went to leave his house and my car was missing. I reported everything to the police officer about the gun being in the car and whatnot. Whether or not I told him if the gun was in the trunk is beside the point because, from what I can remember I told him there was a gun in the vehicle.

I'm a responsible gun owner and I could never plan on my car getting stolen but it just happened and it's unfortunate. Myself and a detective were working on my statement as to where the gun was located and for what reasoning I had for having the firearm in my car. Also, I do not have a permit to carry a firearm hence why the gun was securely locked with no ammunition and it was in my trunk.

I'd like to hear some of your thoughts, THR, and maybe some help on what I can do in my situation? I've never been involved with the police before in this kind of thing so it's kind of scary.

 

[retgarr]

What you can do

First the bad news, you'll probably never get anything back. Just how car thefts are. You probably knew that though.

Here's the good news, you would not be held strictly liable if that gun is used in a crime or if the person who stole it injures their self. I had a similar situation, although my car was not stolen. The contents including my unloaded pistol were stolen. I actually spoke to a lawyer about this yesterday. He said I would not be liable and don't need to worry about a lawyer. On the off chance I were to be sued by a victim or family, the chances of them winning would be slim to none. I hope this helps, it's quite convenient that I talked to a lawyer yesterday!

 

[garrettej8]

Thank you for your fast reply, retgarr.

I personally feel responsible if the gun is misused in anyway but I feel 100% that if I never get anything back, I can deal with it. It was a cheap handgun anyway (I think I paid $300) so it's not a big loss. It's just that I'm the victim here but since there was a gun involved it doesn't seem that way. If nobody stole the car in the first place none of this would have happened. It's a shame.

 

[hnk45acp]

sorry for your loss, you did everything that you should. The only think left to do is wait and hope everything turns out for the best

 

[Dave P]

"I do not have a permit to carry a firearm "

In PA - you need a permit to carry in your car??? That's hard to believe.



"working on my statement as to where the gun was located and for what reasoning I had for having the firearm in my car"

Uh - why do you think you need a reason??

 

[garrettej8]

In PA - you need a permit to carry in your car??? That's hard to believe.

this seems to be the case, I've never heard of this before, but then again I'm kind of new to gun ownership.

Uh - why do you think you need a reason??

well I'm sure the detective was wondering why I had a gun in my car. since I didn't have the permit it was his right to ask me.

it's very weird because the detective is saying there are inconsistencies in my story but I assured him the gun was secured in my car to be taken to a friends house and cleaned because I had been to the shooting range the following weekend.

 

[thegriz]

Wow, I can't believe it

Myself and a detective were working on my statement

This phrase should never be used by any of us. It should read:

"Myself and AN ATTORNEY were working on my statement"

The law enforcement person is never your friend (until after their duty is carried out).

The wording of your statement could end up being responsible for you being charged with and convicted of a crime.

Be careful.

 

[doc2rn]

Yup I spoke to police and lawyer yesterday after someone broke in and stole of all things one of my Ruger .22s. Walked right by the Colt .45 case and Glock (hidden), past the rifle rack (cable locked), and busted into a locked security cabinet to get the .22 and a box of shells. He also only took the mag that was in the weapon!?! The other 4 are in the coffee can on the desk.
The Sherriff said he thinks it was neighbor kids.

 

[ArmedBear]

doc2rn, sounds like ammo prices are having an impact on the demand for certain types of firearms.

Thieves probably couldn't afford ammo for the .45.

 

[jerkin]

OP, you may want to contact a lawyer. In PA it is illegal to carry a handgun in a vehicle without a ltcf except in certain instances like hunting, going to the range, gunsmith, etc. A friends house to clean it is not one of the exceptions. Under 6106(a)(2) it is a 1st degree misdemeanor punishable by 5 years in prison. Even though you may not do jail time being convicted of any crime that is punishable by more than 1 year constitutes a loss of your firearm ownership rights. Here is a link to the statute http://www.frontlinearmory.com/misc/paoc/ufa.html#subchaptera

 

[Big Boomer]

So...in PA you can open carry right? But just not one in the trunk unloaded? Bah...

 

[Blackfork]

Isn't it disgusting...

..that it has gotten to this point in what used to bill itself as a free country? Your car is stolen and you have to worry for ONE SECOND that you might be going to jail or be charged, or need legal advice because your pistol is inside the trunk, or anywhere else.

We've come a long way, baby, and not down a road that leads anywhere free men would want to go.

 

[yhtomit]

Sorry to hear about this -- I hope (against hope) that you get both your car and your gun back. Considering the state of my Check Engine light, if I had guns in my car and it were stolen, I'd be more concerned about getting the guns back.

This is also why I'm not comfortable with keeping a gun in the car, even though ideally I'd like one there at all times -- not only do I generally not want to lose a gun to theft, I esp. don't want to lose it to the kind of people who would commit that theft.

I wonder how feasible it would be to have some good hidey holes engineered in, such that a joyride-level thief wouldn't even know a gun was there -- long a fantasy, but also I could see it being a hassle to explain if stopped (sans gun, of course, but with hiding place) at a place like the Mexican border, or for that matter at one of the inspection points in California, Texas, and I'm sure other states as well.

timothy

 

[NASCAR_MAN]

OP, you may want to contact a lawyer. In PA it is illegal to carry a handgun in a vehicle without a ltcf except in certain instances like hunting, going to the range, gunsmith, etc. A friends house to clean it is not one of the exceptions.

That is not right. It is perfectly legal to do what garret did - and the law states as such.

 

[jerkin]

Sorry to say nascar man but I am correct, and people get convicted for it in PA. You're safe with a long gun but not a handgun. Here's the statute. Definition of firearm here is basically a handgun, sbs, or sbr.

§ 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.
(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

(b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

1. Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other law-enforcement officers.
2. Members of the army, navy or marine corps of the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves when on duty.
3. The regularly enrolled members of any organization duly organized to purchase or receive such weapons from the United States or from this Commonwealth.
4. Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded.
5. Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed firearm.
6. Agents, messengers and other employees of common carriers, banks, or business firms, whose duties require them to protect moneys, valuables and other property in the discharge of such duties.
7. Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person, having in his possession, using or carrying a firearm in the usual or ordinary course of such business.
8. Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) or to a location to which the person has been directed to surrender firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the surrendered firearm.
9. Persons licensed to hunt, take furbearers or fish in this Commonwealth, if such persons are actually hunting, taking furbearers or fishing or are going to the places where they desire to hunt, take furbearers or fish or returning from such places.
10. Persons training dogs, if such persons are actually training dogs during the regular training season.
11. Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.


A few people try to make the argument that "carry" means on your posession, not just in the vehicle, but if that were the case then we wouldn't need the exceptions. It could just say locked in the trunk is OK, which it doesn't. There are numerous cases in PA of people being convicted of this offense and losing their right to own firearms.

EDIT: Here's a link to a PA firearms site where this came up a few weeks ago. Make up your own mind what's legal. http://www.pafoa.org/forum/question-answer-40/16336-tranporting-hangun-range.html

 

[NASCAR_MAN]

jerkin,

You are absolutely right - I stand corrected. And this is strange since I carried periodically in Pennsy for four (4) years during the early 90's - especially when I had to make trips to Chester to pick up my fiance after work (not a nice neighborhood - the locals were pretty hinky). I always had the feeling I might - just might - have been breaking a city ordinance or two - and I played it accordingly - kept my mouth shut and made a very low profile.

Next...you'll be telling me that I was breaking the law by carrying to Atlantic City! I hope not!

NASCAR

 

[jerkin]

Nascar man, I doubt you were the first or last to unknowingly break that law, lol. Like Boomer said, it's kind of strange that we're an open carry state but you need a permit to transport. Unless that was the intention of the law, sure you can open carry without a license, anywhere you can walk to.

I doubt most leos would write it up but it made me a little nervous when the OP stated the officer seemed very inquisitive as to why he had the gun in the car to begin with and wanted that to be part of the statement.

OP, I would speak with a lawyer who knows PA gun laws before making any further statements to the police. Don't let them give you too much rope.

 

[Winchester 73]

Next...you'll be telling me that I was breaking the law by carrying to Atlantic City! I hope not!

That is a good one.

 

[Master Blaster]

4. Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded.

8. Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back,

Both of these sections carry relevent exceptions

 

[Treo]

In this order;
SHUT YOUR MOUTH
GET A LAWYER
SAY EXACTLY WHAT THE LAWYER TELLS YOU TO SAY W/ HIM/HER PRESENT.
DO NOT SPEAK TO A COP W/OUT SAID LAWYER PRESENT.
DO NOT PASS GO DO NOT COLLECT 200$ DOLLARS