Kel Tec SU16 or Mini 14???

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5.56mm shoulder arm

I own a Bushmaster ES15 (AR15 clone) a Mini 14 ranch rifle and a Mini30 (7.62x39), and LOVE them all. High cap mags are not a problem,very available and reasonably priced. I am not familiar with the Keltec so I can't speak of it, but from my experience the Rugers win hands down!
 
eh

re: melting kel tec

kabooms are mostly not a worry for me. as someone said earlier the boom areas are steel.

that said, i use both wolf and american eagle through my CA and while i never worry about it exploding in my face i do worry every single shot about the casing melting my receiver. what happens is that the brass can get slammed by the "tactical" bolt handle's brass deflector front into the forward lip of the ejection port. the case is very hot, and each time it happens it melts a little more out of the port. there's only about half a centimeter of plastic before it contacts the steel of the chamber, so each fraction of a mm hurts.

to fix this i am replacfing the extractor with a dpms ar15 extractor and replacing the tactical handle with an original round su16 a/b handle. the only problem is that kel tec has not answered my emailed request for a way to purchase that round handle.

ultimately, the su16 is in a class all of its own. i rank them thus (not in order of anything)

1. ar15 - very reliable (mine was a bushie), very customizable, accurate, effective.
2. mini14 - very reliable, not as accurate, definitely not mil-spec. however it is rugged as all get out and will last for a very long time.
3. keltec16 - not so reliable, not mil spec, will not last you a long time, but just as if not more accurate than an ar15, light as a feather, folds, and when the SHTF you may well be more worried about what you vcan carry rather than what will last you for the next 20 years.

important note: kel tec estimates that their su16 is expected to last 6000 rounds. its on their website.
 
Mini's

I'd et one of the new Mini's. They are a better rifle now than they were a couple of years ago, and, the "cool factor" plays a part here....
 
Agree with the last post. I just went throught this same decision recently, and went with the Mini. No regrets whatsoever. The common wisdom on "accuracy" issues I now believe is outdated hearsay, though it may be true for older mfg'd (2 yrs) rifles. I've spoken to others at the range with Keltecs, and they have feed issues. The Mini will eat anything, without a hitch. Being in CA, choices are limited, but I am ultimately pleased with what I have with this, despite the limitations. Regarding the mags, yep I wish Ruger offered me more than 5 rd. I just bought and tried the 10 rd Promag and also the John Masen today. The size is different for some reason between them, with the Masen looking larger than 10, more like 15 or something, but maybe due to the spring used. Initially, I was impressed by the apparent mfg quality/finish of the Promag, and less impressed by the finish on the Masen. Then I used them. Promag sucked. Would not (at all) feed the first round with 10 loaded, and though it initially (prior to actual use) would pop in and out perfectly, now it sticks when I go to remove it. The Masen's (bought 2 nickel versions) both worked flawlessly all day, though initially a thighter fit, & now pop out just like the factory mags. I'll buy these again, and they cost less than the Promags, too.
 
The problem with saigas is they are listed as assault weapons in california
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That sounds more like a problem with California than a problem with the Saiga. ;)

The Kel-Tec kabooms are all but a myth based on "plastic gun" bias. There have been a couple of high profile kabooms with the SU-16 and one with the PLR-16 (pretty much the same mechanism), but these were caused by bad ammo, typically bad reloads, including one case where Red Dot pistol powder was substituted for the rifle powder. It's the same sort of stuff that causes kabooms in any modern firearm, including ARs. Google a bit and you can find plenty of scary AR kaboom pictures too.

I have a PLR-16, the pistol version of the SU-16, and it's been very reliable, and it's a ton of fun to shoot. I'm looking for an SU-16C.

There were some issues where a batch of the SU-16s had the problem of the case being knocked back into the ejection port, as described in a previous post. Most SU-16s do not have this problem at all. I suspect there was a subtle change in manufacturing that altered the cycle timing, but I don't think anyone knows the exact reason. If you have this problem, there is no need to buy the round operating handle to replace the forward ejecting operating handle. All you need to do is call Kel-Tec customer service and ask for the round handle. It's covered under their LIFETIME WARRANTY. It's free, and while I consider it to be a bit of a work-around, it does solve the problem.

I recently shot a stainless Ruger Mini-14. I had heard they aren't accurate, but I was surprised at the accuracy at 50 yards, where I was plinking little pill bottles 60% of the time, from an unsupported standing position, with the iron sights. My old eyes aren't that good.

I like the stainless option, but the Ruger's lack of high capacity magazines is a non-starter for me. Ever wonder why Ruger doesn't provide good hi-cap mags? It's hard to believe, but Bill Ruger sold out the shooting public and was largely responsible for the 10 round magazine limits that were in the now-expired Brady Bill. A statement like that requires some documentation. Before you buy a Ruger, please read these five paragraphs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-14#Controversy

And that's the biggest reason I'm not buying a Ruger. Actions need to have consequences. With a lot of politicians trying to legislate limits on the 2nd amendment, we sure don't need any traitors in the gun industry. Yes, it happened 17 years ago, but I have a long memory.
 
Actions need to have consequences. With a lot of politicians trying to legislate limits on the 2nd amendment, we sure don't need any traitors in the gun industry. Yes, it happened 17 years ago, but I have a long memory.
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This old arguement is trotted out virtually EVERY TIME the Mini-14 is discussed, even when it's NOT compared to any other self-loading rifle. While the facts of the arguement are true (Bill Ruger did make the statements credited to him about magazine capacity), the fact is, it's NOT a CURRENT CORPORATE policy at Ruger. (I challenge anyone to prove this wrong.)

What is sad here is that most of those pushing this punative measure on Ruger DO NOT apply the measure to OTHER equally complicit parties. If one is going to "apply consequences" to gun companies who put "limits on the 2nd amendment" (as you say above), you had BEST include SEVERAL OTHER firearms manufacturers on this list of those getting this "punishment".

Ruger is/was NOT alone in limiting the sale of larger than 10 round magazines with their firearms, even WELL AFTER the "assault weapon ban" expired.

To single Ruger out for this treatment is hypocracy.
 
It is not hypocrisy. I don't buy or own Smith & Wesson for similar reasons. They also sold out their customers in the run-up to the Brady Bill. People point out that S&W was sold (largely because of the boycott of their products) and the new owners do not sellout their customers as a matter of corporate policy, so it's OK to buy S&W now.

It matters not the least to me what their current policy is. If we allow companies to betray us, and then when they see gun owners aren't going to buy from them they cash out and retire, there aren't really a lot of consequences to their actions. The consequences occur after a betrayal such as this when their company name that was earned over many generations is suddenly worse than worthless because nobody will ever purchase a gun they manufacture, ever again. If you decide to sell out generations of customers to make a Faustian deal to sell guns to the gun grabbing government, you had better be sure they are going to buy ALL the guns you want to manufacture.

The real innocent victims here are the hard working employees at companies like Ruger or Smith & Wesson. They had nothing to do with the stupid, ungrateful and short sighted decision that was made by management, and the employees typically don't have golden parachute retirement plans. But that sort of inequity has existed since there has been management and workers. Their lives are disrupted, but there are other jobs for people who are willing to work.

Just as there are other excellent firearms to purchase from companies that don't side with gun grabbers.

I'm sorry if you like Rugers and need to assuage your conscience. I liked them too, right up until the time Bill Ruger sold me out.

I admit I'm a bit extreme when it comes to defending my constitutional rights.

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!"
Barry Goldwater
 
su16c

I recently bought A SU16c It had extraction problems. Sent it back..
came back worse. Sent it back again...its ariving this week. I'll let you know if you'd like. I do like the gun its tiny and shoots nice. (when it shoots)
Kida wishing I forked out the extra money for a bushmaster or some type of battle rifle. Guess that will have to be next in 308.
 
important note: kel tec estimates that their su16 is expected to last 6000 rounds
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:scrutiny:

If that's true, definitely glad I went for the Saiga 223 as my choice. I expect a chunk of Russian AK like that to last through World War III, IV, V, VI...
 
Read the paragraphs cited above and the link. Having heard about this, I had also wondered if it might not have been posturing to avoid more drastic measures by our enlightened government officials and hysterical citizenry. The last paragraph also refers to that possibility. IFF there is any truth to that, than perhaps nothing wrong with helping sidestep what may have been an oncoming train. Similarly, I ride bikes, and know that there were issues with faster and faster bikes getting government attention and possible legislation. The industry had no choice but to agree to a self-imposed limit of 185mph, at that time the fastest prodcution bike. Well, who really needs to go that fast, anyway... but who wants to be regulated? I prefer neither. Still, the legislation in the EU continues to ratchet down on HP over there. Our choices in pastime, whether guns (or bikes, and whether on or off-road), or whatever else is our interest, makes us a minority, and subject to be legislated out of existence by the "enlightened" and uninterested majority quite easily. Not good to ignore that, either. Now, I sure wish CA would knock off their silliness over what amounts to gun "cosmetics" and appearance...
 
important note: kel tec estimates that their su16 is expected to last 6000 rounds
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Where was this information obtained? I know of KT P-11 pistols with well over double that amount. It's difficult to believe they would have made a rifle with less life expectancy.

J
 
The "6,000 round lifetime...it's on their website" is an old saw of Kel-Tec detractors. Here's the actual quote.

http://www.kel-tec.com/faq.php

Q : What is the expected life of a Kel-Tec firearm?
A : All Kel-Tec firearms have an expected life of 6,000 rounds or more.
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Note the "or more" part. The 6,000 figure is sort of a worst case claim for their very small and powerful pocket pistols. These are not range pistols. They were optimized for self defense, with small size and light weight being the primary design constraints. They are intended to be shot monthly to keep in practice, but they were not intended to shoot 400 rounds every week at the range.

The SUB-2000s, SU-16s, and PLR-16s are very durable. There are some with very high round counts, far in excess of 6,000. The pistols are generally good for a lot more than 6,000 rounds too.

And if there is ever a problem, Kel-Tec has a lifetime warranty, and they are very reasonable about it. I've never had any problems with my Kel-Tecs, but I've seen them cover obvious abuse that required the entire firearm to be replaced. So what is the lifetime of a Kel-Tec? Well, pretty much, its lifetime is your lifetime, or maybe longer, because I've never known Kel-Tec to enforce the "original owner" clause in their lifetime warranty.

How many manufacturers sell affordable firearms and have the confidence to back them up with a lifetime warranty? Kel-Tec and Hi-Points, and that's about it.
 
It is not hypocrisy. I don't buy or own Smith & Wesson for similar reasons. .............I'm sorry if you like Rugers and need to assuage your conscience.
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It's hypocrisy if you don't include EVERY firearm manufacturer/importer who has limited full capacity magazine availability in the pre or post Crime Bill period. Most persons have NO idea which companies really behaved in this manner, but DO remember Ruger, so Ruger gets singled out. As long as you include Ruger, S&W, Colt, and some others that I cannot remember, than you are not being hypocritical. Otherwise.....

BTW, I am not assuaging my conscience, as I bought my Mini-14 (and a pile of factory 20 round mags) back in 1979, LONG before the whole magazine issue erupted.
 
Looks like keltec pretty much sent me a new gun. even replaced the grips.
I should have said before that they were pleasant to deal with. To me is important with stuff like this. I'll post after I shoot it.
 
Quote 1:
Actions need to have consequences. With a lot of politicians trying to legislate limits on the 2nd amendment, we sure don't need any traitors in the gun industry. Yes, it happened 17 years ago, but I have a long memory.
Quote 2:
This old arguement is trotted out virtually EVERY TIME the Mini-14 is discussed, even when it's NOT compared to any other self-loading rifle. While the facts of the arguement are true (Bill Ruger did make the statements credited to him about magazine capacity), the fact is, it's NOT a CURRENT CORPORATE policy at Ruger. (I challenge anyone to prove this wrong.)
...[end quotes]

It is common knowledge that Henry Ford I supported Adolph Hitler.
The current Ford family contributes to pro-Arab anti-Israeli political organizations. This is not widely reported yet is easily verified.

If three generations of misconduct by the Ford family would not stop you from buying a Ford car or truck, why would one transgression by Bill Ruger stop you from buying the type of gun you want at a fair price?
Richard
Schennberg.com
 
I just bought my second Mini-14 today. It's a used stainless steel GB in the 186-series. I also have a regular blued 182-series Mini-14. I got three Ruger factory 20 rounders with it (1 came with it, I paid $20 each for two more used mags).

Unless you're in a state where you must have pre-AWB mags, the magazine issue isn't. You can get factory 20s used or new online. The new Pro Mag 20s have a very good reputation and go for under $20 each.

Granted, Ruger mags are more expensive than AR-15 mags, but AR-15 mags SUCK. They are a weak point in the AR-15/M-16 system. People are still tinkering with them to improve reliability over 40 years after they were first introduced. E.g., green followers, different springs, MagPul followers, and different finishes. Mini-14 magazines are much more robust.
 
Where is the list of other manufacturers that refused to sell standard capacity magazines to civilians?

To be honest the only company I knew of that refused to sell standard cap mags, either before or after the AWB demise, was Ruger. But I don't own Colt or S&W, and my only Ruger is a very early Tang safety 77RSI (pre-Bills sellout), so I guess I'm good to go.
 
I think there is a difference between something that happened in the 1920s and something that happened in the 1990s. The Nazi collaboration seems mostly inaccurate, as Nazis had seized the Ford plant in Cologne Germany for war prouction and it was not under Ford control. But Ford did write The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem as a series of artcles in the early 1920s. By some accounts, he recanted and apologized in the 1940s. By other accounts, he continued to be antisemitic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford#Antisemitism_and_The_Dearborn_Independent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Company#Nazi_Collaboration

http://www.amazon.com/International-Jew-Henry-Ford/dp/0849004187

IBM was cooperating with the Nazis in WWII, providing information management systems using punch cards to keep track of the numbers that were tatooed onto Jews in concentration camps.

Neither are particularly proud moments in American history, but do serve as examples that corporations can do evil things, because ultimately, the decisions are made by people.

It mades me glad that I don't own a Ford, or an IBM, even though the 1920s and 1940s were a long time ago.

Have any reliable documentation about Ford currently supporting Arab causes? I looked and found nothing reliable, and even found unreliable evidence that Ford was channeling money to support Israelis.

If there really were Ford misdeeds in my lifetime, such as supporting terrorism, then I wouldn't buy a Ford product on those grounds.
 
Ever wonder why the 30-round magazines for AR-15/M-16 ar curved, but the 20-rounders are straight?
It is pretty obvious that 30-rounders have to be curved or they would not work with a slightly rimmed case like .223/5.56. However, I feel that straight 20-rounders was a design error. All of my 8, 10, and 30 round magazines work perfectly up to capacity, but 3 of my 4 "20-rounders" only work reliably with 18 loaded. Perhaps a couple only look like the top round points too low when loaded with 20 and would actually feed, but I still only have one-20 rounder that I fully trust.
Richard
Schennberg.com
 
I don't care for the Ruger Mini-14 magazines, at least the ones I used. They seemed awkward, and not the sort of thing I could reliably use in a hurry. A lot of that may be a matter of familiarity, but the AR mags seemed more intuitive and easier to use from the start.

I bought two 20 round mags and three 30 round mags from C-Products several months ago. The 30 round mags are curved quite a bit, and the 20 round mags are curved a little.

http://64.68.152.84/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=cp&Category_Code=20rnd

There was an announcement on their website that they will be offering straight 20 round stainless mags in 2007.

I do agree that the AR mags weren't very good at first, like many other aspects of the ARs, but I think they are very good now and low cost too. They're good enough that it makes a lot of sense for a company like Kel-Tec to design the PLR-16 and the SU-16 so they accept AR mags. When there is already a good standard, the only reason to abandon it would be to make money selling proprietary mags, and I hate that sort of weasel marketing. Similarly, my Kel-Tec SUB-2000 folding 9mm carbine uses the very reliable, readily available and inexpensive 33 round Glock 18 magazines.
 
I plan to pick up a SU16 in a couple months.

Why? It is reliable, folds, portable, light and uses AR15 mags. :D
 
While the facts of the arguement are true (Bill Ruger did make the statements credited to him about magazine capacity), the fact is, it's NOT a CURRENT CORPORATE policy at Ruger. (I challenge anyone to prove this wrong.)
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Try buying one through Jerry’s Sports distributors. None for civilian, yes I can buy through the Law enforcement but not for everybody. Reason Ruger restricted. Call them if you are a dealer they will explain it to you.
 
There are plenty of companies that make good firearms and know better than to exceed the government restrictions placed on firearms ownership. I don't need to support gun manufacturers who are intimidated by gun grabbers to the point they're joining ranks with them. I've bought Glock, Mossberg, Kel-Tec and Kahr. I plan on buying Kel-Tec, Mossberg, Rock River Arms and Bluegrass Armory. There are plenty of others to choose from as well. I don't feel the burning need to buy a Ruger, Smith & Wesson or Colt. It's a real shame when some of the most historically significant firearms manufacturers sell out the firearms industry and their loyal customers.

I'll probably inherit several Ruger pistols from my dad. He bought them in the 1970s, and they're fine pistols. I have fond memories of shooting them back then, but Bill Ruger has now tainted those memories and I'll never feel as good about those Rugers again. Happy father-son memories are now bitter sweet. Every time I see those pistols I think of the Brady Bill and Ruger's hand in it.
 
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