Kerry credited with 20 kills in Vietnam
- Thread starter w4rma
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Ditto. What you seem to have a hard time understanding is that I, as a died in the wool Right Wing Extremist, don't want you on my side if you insist on helping Kerry make his service in VN a central issue of the campaign. It is irrelevant!!! You wanna bash Kerry? Great. Pick a better issue. THIS IS A NON-STARTER!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, PLEASE STOP MAKING THE REST OF US LOOK LIKE FOOLS!!!
Ok cactus, so he's never, ever done anything to deserve honor???
-How about serving in the US armed forces and three purple hearts...
-Oh yeah, I forgot, that doesn't count at all...
cactus:
Nope! When Kerry himself admitted to commiting war crimes, THAT negated his war service!
-Look read my post on 'war atrocities'... Any fella that was infantry was bound to kill civvies... just the nature of the beast and those are the war crimes he speaks of. I see them as forgivable as long as he didn't do them expressly to kill civvies.
-let go of his military record: it just looks bad to attack it. If you have beef with what he did afterwards, that makes a bit more sense. Still, it's not hypocracy to say that you had the gumshum to serve yet disagree with the politics behind the fight.
I'm proud of the 'nam vets I know: very proud seeing that they didn't have our full support and yet fought the fight in a hellhole, yet I COMPLETELY disagree with the 'nam war. Still is laudible in my eyes to have served there though.
-How about serving in the US armed forces and three purple hearts...
-Oh yeah, I forgot, that doesn't count at all...
cactus:
Nope! When Kerry himself admitted to commiting war crimes, THAT negated his war service!
-Look read my post on 'war atrocities'... Any fella that was infantry was bound to kill civvies... just the nature of the beast and those are the war crimes he speaks of. I see them as forgivable as long as he didn't do them expressly to kill civvies.
-let go of his military record: it just looks bad to attack it. If you have beef with what he did afterwards, that makes a bit more sense. Still, it's not hypocracy to say that you had the gumshum to serve yet disagree with the politics behind the fight.
I'm proud of the 'nam vets I know: very proud seeing that they didn't have our full support and yet fought the fight in a hellhole, yet I COMPLETELY disagree with the 'nam war. Still is laudible in my eyes to have served there though.
Monkeyleg
Member.
"-let go of his military record: it just looks bad to attack it."
Paco, we're talking politics here, and the Big Prize. If Kerry wants to make an issue out of the fact that he went to Viet Nam and Bush didn't, then the Bush team has to respond. If Candidate A says "I went to college and Candidate B didn't," then Candidate B is entirely within bounds to scrutinize Candidate A's college records.
It is Kerry who is making his Viet Nam service an issue, not Bush.
BTW: gumshum? Does that come with eggrolls?
Paco, we're talking politics here, and the Big Prize. If Kerry wants to make an issue out of the fact that he went to Viet Nam and Bush didn't, then the Bush team has to respond. If Candidate A says "I went to college and Candidate B didn't," then Candidate B is entirely within bounds to scrutinize Candidate A's college records.
It is Kerry who is making his Viet Nam service an issue, not Bush.
BTW: gumshum? Does that come with eggrolls?
w4rma
member
Kerry Still Carries Shrapnel in Leg from Vietnam
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry still carries a piece of shrapnel in his left thigh from a 1969 Vietnam War wound that led to his second Purple Heart, his doctor said on Friday.
Kerry, the commander of a "swiftboat" in the Mekong Delta in late 1968 and 1969, was hit by the shrapnel in a Feb. 20, 1969, firefight. Dr. Gerald Doyle, Kerry's personal physician, said removal would have required an even wider incision in the leg.
"A decision was made to leave the shrapnel in place," Doyle said in a letter summarizing 35 pages of military medical records taken from Kerry's personal files. "Successful removal would have necessitated an extensive wider exposure."
The Massachusetts senator, who released his military records earlier this week after questions were raised about his first Purple Heart, also made the medical records available for inspection by reporters on Friday.
Doyle briefed reporters on the records in a conference call and released the letter summarizing them. The Navy files released earlier in the week did not include Kerry's medical records.
The records indicated Kerry, who is challenging President Bush for the White House, had shrapnel removed from his upper left arm in December 1968 and from his upper buttock in March 1969 after he was wounded in action.
Kerry won three Purple Hearts, as well as a Silver Star and Bronze Star, while in Vietnam.
The military records were released by the campaign under pressure from Republicans …
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...=/nm/20040423/pl_nm/campaign_kerry_medical_dc
Destructo6
Member
That would be "Roy" Boehm. His son and I served together for a short time.
Again, I would like to know who put Kerry in for his awards.
Cool Hand Luke 22:36
member
w4rma:
We were discussing the medical records from Vietnam for Kerry's first claim for a Purple Heart. His current x-Rays are interesting but don't shed any light on the very questionable circumstances surrounding the "wounds" leading to the first award.
So far as I can determine, Kerry has still not released the medical evaluation report performed by medic who treated him in Vietnam for his first wound, the one he based his first claim for a Purple Heart upon.
Here's a good description of Kerry's actions that led to his claim for his first Purple Heart. His C.O. at the time has recently stated in a Boston Globe interview that he turned Kerry down for the first Purple Heart award, he does not remember signing it, and he characterized Kerry's first "combat" wound as a "fingernail scratch" that "did not break the skin" and was treated with a topical antibiotic.
_______________________________________________________
Purple Hearts: Three and Out
Posted April 12, 2004
By Stephen Crump
Kerry glows with pride while wearing one of the Purple Hearts he desperately sought.
Democratic presidential nominee in waiting Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) frequently speaks of courage, brotherhood and responsibility when he mentions his brief service in Vietnam. He took Super-8 home movies there in which he staged heroics in full-battle dress, so that later he might use them for campaign ads. Kerry has made so much of his Vietnam medals which he once pretended to throw away that critics have begun to wonder why he has been so cagey about the dubious circumstances surrounding the Purple Hearts that got him out of Vietnam after only four months of combat service. Under the rules, a serviceman had to be awarded three Purple Hearts to apply to go home. Not one or two, but three. And, say critics, there's the rub.
Kerry, who piloted Patrol Crafts Fast (PCFs) as a young Lt.(jg) in the Vietnam War, has always made much of those Purple Hearts. An award often pinned on the pillow of a combat warrior so badly wounded that he cannot sit up to receive it, the Purple Heart recognizes the sacrifices of combat when a soldier or officer has sustained a wound "from an outside force or agent" and received treatment from a medical officer. The records for such treatment "must have been made a matter of official record," according to the military definition of the award.
According to Kerry's own description in Douglas Brinkley's Tour of Duty, the Dec. 2, 1968, mission behind what he has claimed to be his first Purple Heart was "a half-assed action that hardly qualified as combat." Indeed. Kerry was stationed with Coastal Division 14 at Cam Ranh Bay. At that time he piloted a small foam-filled boat, known as a Boston Whaler, with two enlisted men in the darkness of early morning. The intent, apparently, was to patrol an area that was known for contraband trafficking, but it was an undocumented mission. Upon approaching the objective point, the crew noticed a sampan crossing the river. As it pulled to shore, Kerry and his little team opened fire, destroying the boat and whatever its cargo might have been.
In the confusion, Kerry claims to have received a "stinging piece of heat" in the arm, the result of a tiny piece of shrapnel. He was not incapacitated and continued with regular swiftboat-patrol duty. William Shachte, who oversaw this ad hoc mission, was quoted by the Boston Globe as saying Kerry's injury, from whatever source, "was not a serious wound at all."
But Kerry met with his immediate superior officer, Lt.Cmdr. Grant Hibbard, the next morning and requested a Purple Heart for his wound. Hibbard recalls that Kerry had a "minor scratch" on his arm and was holding in his hand what appeared to be a fragment of a U.S. M-79 grenade, the shrapnel that had caused the wound. "They didn't receive enemy fire," Hibbard tells Insight. Since this was an essential requirement for the award, the commander rejected Kerry's request. Hibbard does not remember that Kerry received medical attention of any kind and confirms that no one else on the mission suffered any injuries.
Shortly thereafter, Kerry was transferred to Coastal Division 11 at An Thoi. Apparently, Kerry petitioned to have his Purple Heart request reconsidered. Hibbard remembers getting correspondence from Kerry's new division, asking for his approval. In the hurried process of moving to a new command himself, Hibbard thinks he might have signed off on the award. If so, "it was to my chagrin," Hibbard remembers. Kerry's second commander, Lt.Cmdr. G.M. Elliott, says he has no recollection of such an event ever occurring.
There are no written records of Kerry's magical first Purple Heart on file at the Naval Historical Center in Washington, the nation's primary repository for such documentation. A Purple Heart normally is not requested but is awarded de facto for a wound inflicted by the enemy - a wound serious enough to require medical attention. The Naval Historical Center keeps all documents connected to such awards to U.S. Navy and Marine personnel. These typewritten "casualty cards" list the date, location and prognosis of the wound for which the Purple Heart is given, and they are produced by the medical facility that provides treatment for the combat wound at the hands of the enemy. There are two such cards for Kerry - for his slight wounds on Feb. 20 and March 13, 1969, but none for his December 1968 claim.
After receiving a Purple Heart for the March 13 scratch and bruise, Kerry sought an early pass out of combat duty, invoking the informal Navy "instruction" known as 1300.39. According to the Boston Globe, 1300.39 meant an officer could request a reassignment from his superior officer after receiving three Purple Hearts. The instruction states that, rather than being automatic, the reassignment would "be determined after consideration of his physical classification for duty and on an individual basis." Of the 138 servicemen and officers in Kerry's unit who received Purple Hearts during the time he was there, records indicate only two received more than two. These were Lt.(jg) Jim Galvin and a boatswain's mate named Stevens. When Insight reached Galvin he said all three of his Purple Hearts were the result of shrapnel or glass shards. Such minor injuries were common on PCF boats with their glass windows and thin metal hulls, and, like Kerry's, Galvin's injuries were not serious enough to take him out of combat for more than a few days.
Unlike Kerry, Galvin elected to stay with his men. Indeed, though a professional Navy officer, he never had heard of instruction 1300.39. It was not until early April of 1969, when Galvin noticed that Kerry was preparing to leave the officers' barracks at An Thoi that he learned about "three Purple Hearts and you're out." According to Galvin, it was Kerry who told him, "There's a rule that gets you out of here and I'm getting out. You ought to do the same." Galvin remembers, "He seemed to take care of everything pretty quickly," because that was the last time Galvin saw Kerry in Vietnam.
The three-times wounded Galvin stayed with his men, transferred to Cam Ranh Bay to get them a respite from the dicey Mekong Delta, and eventually left the swiftboats for destroyer school.
Insight: contacted many men who served in Coastal Division at the same time Kerry did to ask if any of them had heard of anyone leaving the combat zone by invoking three minor wounds. Of the 12 who replied, none had heard of anyone doing so but John Kerry."
Less than a month after having claimed three wounds for which he lost no more than a total of two days of duty, Kerry reported as an aide to a navy yard admiral in Brooklyn, New York, leaving his crew in Vietnam. Two years later, preparing for a congressional race in a left-wing Massachusetts district - where the seat eventually was won by the even more radical Rev. Robert Drinan - Kerry was working with Maoists and other radicals in Vietnam Veterans Against the War, saying of those he left behind who were being killed and wounded for real that they were committing crimes "on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels."
Indeed, Kerry said, he knew men who in Vietnam "had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks and generally ravaged the countryside." Addressing the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971, about these and other alleged war crimes, he called on the United States to pay "extensive reparations."
We were discussing the medical records from Vietnam for Kerry's first claim for a Purple Heart. His current x-Rays are interesting but don't shed any light on the very questionable circumstances surrounding the "wounds" leading to the first award.
So far as I can determine, Kerry has still not released the medical evaluation report performed by medic who treated him in Vietnam for his first wound, the one he based his first claim for a Purple Heart upon.
Here's a good description of Kerry's actions that led to his claim for his first Purple Heart. His C.O. at the time has recently stated in a Boston Globe interview that he turned Kerry down for the first Purple Heart award, he does not remember signing it, and he characterized Kerry's first "combat" wound as a "fingernail scratch" that "did not break the skin" and was treated with a topical antibiotic.
_______________________________________________________
Purple Hearts: Three and Out
Posted April 12, 2004
By Stephen Crump
Kerry glows with pride while wearing one of the Purple Hearts he desperately sought.
Democratic presidential nominee in waiting Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) frequently speaks of courage, brotherhood and responsibility when he mentions his brief service in Vietnam. He took Super-8 home movies there in which he staged heroics in full-battle dress, so that later he might use them for campaign ads. Kerry has made so much of his Vietnam medals which he once pretended to throw away that critics have begun to wonder why he has been so cagey about the dubious circumstances surrounding the Purple Hearts that got him out of Vietnam after only four months of combat service. Under the rules, a serviceman had to be awarded three Purple Hearts to apply to go home. Not one or two, but three. And, say critics, there's the rub.
Kerry, who piloted Patrol Crafts Fast (PCFs) as a young Lt.(jg) in the Vietnam War, has always made much of those Purple Hearts. An award often pinned on the pillow of a combat warrior so badly wounded that he cannot sit up to receive it, the Purple Heart recognizes the sacrifices of combat when a soldier or officer has sustained a wound "from an outside force or agent" and received treatment from a medical officer. The records for such treatment "must have been made a matter of official record," according to the military definition of the award.
According to Kerry's own description in Douglas Brinkley's Tour of Duty, the Dec. 2, 1968, mission behind what he has claimed to be his first Purple Heart was "a half-assed action that hardly qualified as combat." Indeed. Kerry was stationed with Coastal Division 14 at Cam Ranh Bay. At that time he piloted a small foam-filled boat, known as a Boston Whaler, with two enlisted men in the darkness of early morning. The intent, apparently, was to patrol an area that was known for contraband trafficking, but it was an undocumented mission. Upon approaching the objective point, the crew noticed a sampan crossing the river. As it pulled to shore, Kerry and his little team opened fire, destroying the boat and whatever its cargo might have been.
In the confusion, Kerry claims to have received a "stinging piece of heat" in the arm, the result of a tiny piece of shrapnel. He was not incapacitated and continued with regular swiftboat-patrol duty. William Shachte, who oversaw this ad hoc mission, was quoted by the Boston Globe as saying Kerry's injury, from whatever source, "was not a serious wound at all."
But Kerry met with his immediate superior officer, Lt.Cmdr. Grant Hibbard, the next morning and requested a Purple Heart for his wound. Hibbard recalls that Kerry had a "minor scratch" on his arm and was holding in his hand what appeared to be a fragment of a U.S. M-79 grenade, the shrapnel that had caused the wound. "They didn't receive enemy fire," Hibbard tells Insight. Since this was an essential requirement for the award, the commander rejected Kerry's request. Hibbard does not remember that Kerry received medical attention of any kind and confirms that no one else on the mission suffered any injuries.
Shortly thereafter, Kerry was transferred to Coastal Division 11 at An Thoi. Apparently, Kerry petitioned to have his Purple Heart request reconsidered. Hibbard remembers getting correspondence from Kerry's new division, asking for his approval. In the hurried process of moving to a new command himself, Hibbard thinks he might have signed off on the award. If so, "it was to my chagrin," Hibbard remembers. Kerry's second commander, Lt.Cmdr. G.M. Elliott, says he has no recollection of such an event ever occurring.
There are no written records of Kerry's magical first Purple Heart on file at the Naval Historical Center in Washington, the nation's primary repository for such documentation. A Purple Heart normally is not requested but is awarded de facto for a wound inflicted by the enemy - a wound serious enough to require medical attention. The Naval Historical Center keeps all documents connected to such awards to U.S. Navy and Marine personnel. These typewritten "casualty cards" list the date, location and prognosis of the wound for which the Purple Heart is given, and they are produced by the medical facility that provides treatment for the combat wound at the hands of the enemy. There are two such cards for Kerry - for his slight wounds on Feb. 20 and March 13, 1969, but none for his December 1968 claim.
After receiving a Purple Heart for the March 13 scratch and bruise, Kerry sought an early pass out of combat duty, invoking the informal Navy "instruction" known as 1300.39. According to the Boston Globe, 1300.39 meant an officer could request a reassignment from his superior officer after receiving three Purple Hearts. The instruction states that, rather than being automatic, the reassignment would "be determined after consideration of his physical classification for duty and on an individual basis." Of the 138 servicemen and officers in Kerry's unit who received Purple Hearts during the time he was there, records indicate only two received more than two. These were Lt.(jg) Jim Galvin and a boatswain's mate named Stevens. When Insight reached Galvin he said all three of his Purple Hearts were the result of shrapnel or glass shards. Such minor injuries were common on PCF boats with their glass windows and thin metal hulls, and, like Kerry's, Galvin's injuries were not serious enough to take him out of combat for more than a few days.
Unlike Kerry, Galvin elected to stay with his men. Indeed, though a professional Navy officer, he never had heard of instruction 1300.39. It was not until early April of 1969, when Galvin noticed that Kerry was preparing to leave the officers' barracks at An Thoi that he learned about "three Purple Hearts and you're out." According to Galvin, it was Kerry who told him, "There's a rule that gets you out of here and I'm getting out. You ought to do the same." Galvin remembers, "He seemed to take care of everything pretty quickly," because that was the last time Galvin saw Kerry in Vietnam.
The three-times wounded Galvin stayed with his men, transferred to Cam Ranh Bay to get them a respite from the dicey Mekong Delta, and eventually left the swiftboats for destroyer school.
Insight: contacted many men who served in Coastal Division at the same time Kerry did to ask if any of them had heard of anyone leaving the combat zone by invoking three minor wounds. Of the 12 who replied, none had heard of anyone doing so but John Kerry."
Less than a month after having claimed three wounds for which he lost no more than a total of two days of duty, Kerry reported as an aide to a navy yard admiral in Brooklyn, New York, leaving his crew in Vietnam. Two years later, preparing for a congressional race in a left-wing Massachusetts district - where the seat eventually was won by the even more radical Rev. Robert Drinan - Kerry was working with Maoists and other radicals in Vietnam Veterans Against the War, saying of those he left behind who were being killed and wounded for real that they were committing crimes "on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels."
Indeed, Kerry said, he knew men who in Vietnam "had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks and generally ravaged the countryside." Addressing the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971, about these and other alleged war crimes, he called on the United States to pay "extensive reparations."
Last edited:
Cool Hand Luke 22:36
member
An excerpt from the April 14 Boston Globe interview with Kerry's first Commanding Officer, Grant Hibbard regarding the questionable circumstances surrounding Kerry's first Purple Heart:
"He had a little scratch on his forearm, and he was holding a piece of shrapnel," recalled Kerry's commanding officer, Lieutenant Commander Grant Hibbard. "People in the office were saying, `I don't think we got any fire,' and there is a guy holding a little piece of shrapnel in his palm." Hibbard said he couldn't be certain whether Kerry actually came under fire on Dec. 2, 1968, the date in questionand that is why he said he asked Kerry questions about the matter.
But Kerry persisted and, to his own "chagrin," Hibbard said, he dropped the matter. "I do remember some questions, some correspondence about it," Hibbard said. "I finally said, `OK, if that's what happened . . . do whatever you want.' After that, I don't know what happened. Obviously, he got it, I don't know how."
"He had a little scratch on his forearm, and he was holding a piece of shrapnel," recalled Kerry's commanding officer, Lieutenant Commander Grant Hibbard. "People in the office were saying, `I don't think we got any fire,' and there is a guy holding a little piece of shrapnel in his palm." Hibbard said he couldn't be certain whether Kerry actually came under fire on Dec. 2, 1968, the date in questionand that is why he said he asked Kerry questions about the matter.
But Kerry persisted and, to his own "chagrin," Hibbard said, he dropped the matter. "I do remember some questions, some correspondence about it," Hibbard said. "I finally said, `OK, if that's what happened . . . do whatever you want.' After that, I don't know what happened. Obviously, he got it, I don't know how."
HBK
member
John Kerry is just wrong for America, period. His voting record is proof enough of that. The funny thing is that he has the support of the AFL-CIO, but he doesn't support their main issues. THAT'S blind partisianship. Pretty funny if it wasn't so sad.
fallingblock
Member
You've got it, HBK......
"The funny thing is that he has the support of the AFL-CIO, but he doesn't support their main issues. THAT'S blind partisianship. Pretty funny if it wasn't so sad."
************************************************************
While all of us are from time to time capable of partisanship...
The support of JF Kerry certainly requires blinkers to be in place!
"The funny thing is that he has the support of the AFL-CIO, but he doesn't support their main issues. THAT'S blind partisianship. Pretty funny if it wasn't so sad."
************************************************************
While all of us are from time to time capable of partisanship...
The support of JF Kerry certainly requires blinkers to be in place!
greyhound
Member
I hate to give ammo to Kerry, but if there are "no written records" what is supposed to be released?
Only thing I can guess is maybe medical records.
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