Kid wants to hunt elk

[mustanger98]

Okay, I gots me a 13-year-old kid who wants to hunt. He's got a friend with a nice plot of land where there are "too many" elk.

I haven't been hunting myself since I was about that age, and barely remember most details. Plus we hunted deer rather than elk. So I'm a little lost.

I think I can get through the bureaucracy all right -- not for this season, I don't think, but for next year. We'll get him (and me) through a hunter's safety class and all that.

The problem is, well ...

What gun do I suggest he save up for?

Up 'til now, he's shot .22 rifles and a variety of handguns. He hasn't handled a shotgun and he's only fired a .223 a couple of times. I have reason to believe he'd do just fine with anything I hand him, but am just not sure where to start here.

Suggestions?

pax

Okay, here's my $.02 or so.

On the correct rifle, there is no one right rifle to use. At one time, they said a Winchester '94 in .375Win. was the best elk rifle around. FWIW, that's been on my "to aquire" list, but that's me. A .375Win. shoots a 225gr JSP and it probably has some percieved recoil. We don't really know how recoil sensitive this kid is.

My Daddy and I got to discussing this stuff and his opinion is if an elk gets his lungs punched through with a 170gr SP from a Winchester .30-30 or .32Win.Spl., it beats a bad shot with a .30-06 or anything else. .30-30 and .32Spl recoil ain't bad. During practice, be sure the kid has hearing protection as muzzle blast can bust a kid's nerves before he gets used to it- I can vouch for that one. The old '94 with aperture sights- tang or receiver mounted- will do it out to 200yds, but a real hunter wants to get closer than that if/when/where possible. This rifle will be lighter to pack all day in rough country than a lot of other rifles, thanks to John Moses Browning. I'm not saying .30-06 is bad by any means. Just that some rifles/calibers are better for some people than others.

The problem with .223Remington is that it's really not big enough for anything bigger than a groundhog. Deer hunters have to be extremely particular about bullet placement to do any good with it. You just about have to put it in the animal's ear and that's really really iffy. I don't recommend it.

My opinion on sights vs. optics is that in rough country, every hunter should have irons and know how to use them. Scopes can get trashed and if you don't have irons, you're out of the hunt.

I recommend you read "Hell, I Was There" by Elmer Keith. Although I'm in favor of Winchester '94's and .30-30, Mr. Keith was no fan because of range and killing power at the time. Sights and optics are another matter as Elmer Keith had a hand in designing several scopes. I'm sure you'll find some insights there. I sure did.

 

[Balog]

mustanger98 wrote:

The old '94 with aperture sights- tang or receiver mounted- will do it out to 200yds, but a real hunter wants to get closer than that if/when/where possible. This rifle will be lighter to pack all day in rough country than a lot of other rifles, thanks to John Moses Browning.

JMB designed the Winchester '94? I didn't know that, altho it would explain the longevity of the design.

 

[mustanger98]

Balog, You may recall how heavy built the earlier Winchester leverguns were. The 1892 Winchester was able to be built so light and streamlined because it was designed to cycle revolver-length cartriges. They wanted the 1894 to be as light and streamlined, but before JMB thought it out, there was no way to cycle .30-30 length cartriges without adding depth and a lot more steel to the receiver. That's why the dropping toggle action was thought designed- to add depth to the cycle, but not to the demensions of the receiver.

 

[elkhunter]

Something (anything) in the 7mm/08, .270, .280, .308, .30-06... class, assuming proper (premium) elk bullets. I would definitely NOT recommend any .300 mag for a beginner. If he's comfortable with a .300, you don't need our advice!

+ 2

I don't know how big you're kid is but, Again anything with the word Mag in the title probably is not a good idea.

I don't know which side of the state you are hunting on, but if it's the west side, range is probably not going to be too much of an issue unless you're hunting in some big clearcuts.

As far as rifle selection goes, just like any other gun, take him to the gun shop and see what fits best. Model 7's are awesome youth guns, but if he is any thing like my brother was at his age, he's already too lanky to comfortably use a gun that short.

Savages are known to be extremely accurate these days, and they have a very good gun/caliber selection. If you want it they probably have it. (and they won't break the wallet)

Also, don't forget to spend the money on a decent scope. Optics are one of those thing that you get what you pay for. I'm not saying to buy a $800 scope, but don't buy a $50 Tasco either. (The same goes for binos, which you will definately need.)

My first big game gun when I was 13 was a Win Model 70 in 30-06, and it worked just fine. (course by that age I was tipping the scales at about 160-170)

One great, older, often overlooked gun is the Savage Model 99 in .300 Savage. The caliber is adequate under 300 yard, and it doesn't recoil too much. The only problem is finding a good used one that hasn't had the price inflated through the roof.

 

[bosshoff]

Check out this link

This would do the trick nicely.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=151343

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

Well, I won't get into caliber, but here's what I did last year. My wife decided she wanted to deer hunt for the 1st time in 10 years.

I got a super-soft recipe from Sierra for my daughter's .260 Remington consisting of an 85 gr. bullet in front of 10 gr. of Unique resulting in the recoil of a .22 lr.

She practiced up a little, and when we hunted she was shooting full power 140 gr. Nosler Partitions loads (can't remember the powder charge off the top of my head).

It was sneaky, I know, but she gained a ton of confidence with the ultra-light loads in a very short time & never knew the difference when she pulled the trigger on a deer (& still doesn't know) as the recoil when shooting at an animal is never felt/perceived as it is when one is target practicing.

Sam

 

[mustanger98]

In post #26 of this thread, I was talking about the possibilty of using a Winchester .30-30 w/ 170gr SP's for elk. I had been thinking of plain old Winchester PowerPoint or Remington CoreLokt, but I was at my buddy's gun shop yesterday and he has some of this new .30-30 ammo out from, IIRC, Federal called "Fusion". He was telling me he ran across it at one of the trade shows earlier this year and it's supposed to hold something like 90-95% of it's weight. In my part of the country, Remington CoreLokts bring $12.99/20rds and this new Fusion round brings $15.99/20rds. Now, if this load can be had in the 170gr-ers, considering that with a larger animal like an elk you'll want more weight retention and more penetration while trying to stick to less recoil for a kid, I'd suggest looking into this load. Like I said, through the lungs at 200yds or less.

 

[Double Maduro]

Pax,

If the boy can handle it, a good 30-06 is the way I would go. If he gets into hunting, he can take almost any land animal in North America with it. I would not choose it for Polar Bear.

The other thing to consider is what part of the state are you going to hunt in.

Thw west side with the larger Roosevelt elk is pretty heavily timbered and the brush gets pretty thick. The range is usually fairly short.

The east side of the state is more open and the Rocky Mountain version of elk is a grazer as opposed to the browsing Roosevelt. The shots on the east side can be much longer.

I envy you having a youngun to go hunting with.

DM

edited to ad: Didn't see what elk hunter had posted, great minds and all that.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, ELK LIVER MMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmMMMMMMMMM.

 

[only1asterisk]

A rifle that fits and is chambered for something more than .243/6mm and less than the various 7mm/300 magnums used with appropriate bullets at ranges less than 200 yards.

7-08, 270, 30-06 or 308 might be best if you don't have access to handloaded ammo. These popular calibers have a good selection of ammunition factory loaded with appropriate bullets.

The main thing is to make sure your young hunter is schooled in elk anatomy and knows where to place his shots, or what he's shooting will not matter


David

 

[Greybeard]

Quote: "Something (anything) in the 7mm/08, .270, .280, .308, .30-06... class, assuming proper (premium) elk bullets."

+ another for such as the '06 or .308. Some of the major mfgrs. have introduced "low recoil" loads in at least '06 that can be conducive to more practice without getting beat up too bad. Not a lot of difference in trajectory at relatively short range (100 or so yards).

 

[Byron Quick]

My first thought was to suggest a Marlin lever-gun in .35 Remington and limit your shots to 100 yards and under. Moderate recoil, bigger, heavier bullet and a handy rifle to have to carry around.

Around here, there is not much of a selection when it comes to .35 Remington. I didn't have a problem with accuracy, I did have a problem with terminal ballistic performance on mid-sized whitetail does. The vast majority went down right there. The couple that I had to track through frozen beaver swamps for hours; made me look for a caliber with a greater selection of premium bullets. When I found one, it was shot through both lungs. Made it almost a mile through the swamp. The one that I never found, was knocked down, and didn't move for about fifteen minutes. Then it jumped up and ran off, never to be seen again. The Marlin had jammed so badly that it took tools to get the cartridge loose. Where the deer had gone down, there was a circle of hair knocked loose as big as a dinner plate. Range was about 75 yards.

 

[Ankeny]

Something (anything) in the 7mm/08, .270, .280, .308, .30-06... class, assuming proper (premium) elk bullets. I would definitely NOT recommend any .300 mag for a beginner. If he's comfortable with a .300, you don't need our advice!

I guess I make +4. FWIW, if you truly limit your range and pick your shot, a 7X57 is plenty.

 

[Chuck Dye]

Whatever the rifle you and your son choose, take the time to get a good physical fit. Trim the length of pull as needed, put a good recoil pad on, and look at one of the lace-on cheek pieces to get the comb up to where he can both line up on the sights or scope and get a good cheek weld. Be prepared to buy a post-puberty replacement stock.

 

[Red Tornado]

There's currently a good deal on a 760 w/ Scope for $215 here. It looks like a hard price to beat for a scoped 30-06.
RT

 

[H&Hhunter]

I am not going to add anything that hasn't been said already. But my advice is simply do not get hung up on the magnumitis craze with an elk rifle. It isn't neccesary.

If you can find a .358 that'd be a fabulous low recoiling elk round however just due to ease of ammo and such I'd go .270 .308 .30-06 ETC..

 

[askikr]

my father got me into hunting when i was 13 too ( i was pretty small for my age). he let me use my grandfathers pre 64 winchester model 70 featherweight in 30-06. this is the same rifle i use today at 24 yrs old. if he can handle it, the 30-06 is a great versitile rifle that he can grow up with. he should have no trouble taking just about any large game animal in north america.