Kimber Schwartz Safety Failure

[Wichaka]

Follks me being a 1911 armorer in the L.E. profession, I've seen a lot of different 1911's coming across the bench, and keep in contact with other dept.'s that carry & use the 1911 variant.

Within the last 2 weeks, I've seen 2 Kimber Series II's where the tip of the rod that protrudes from the frame which activates the firing pin safety, has broken off, leaving the gun unusable. What is more frightening, is that they were duty guns carried by uniformed officers.
Upon starting the first stage of the last qualification, the gun went click. After doing a tap-rack drill, it again went click. After the third time of going click, the gun was taken apart and the problem found.

The Officers were unaware of the broken part, and during this last qualification at their respective dept.'s, they found out that the gun was useless........except for a very expensive paper weight.
Both had been carrying these guns for weeks or longer in this condition. They have no idea when this may have occurred. Both said that they had fired their guns on their off time, but it had been sometime since doing it.........which means, they are unsure how long it had been..........at least a few weeks they figure.

Folks, I recommend that you detail strip your Kimber series II's once in awhile and check the Schwartz parts. From what I understand, Kimber has been made aware of the problem.

Shoot well & stay safe.

 

[Henry Bowman]

If you depress the grip safety while re-installing the slide after field stripping, you will whack this rod that is sticking up. It's easy to do because many will hold the frame in their strong hand with a normal gripping manner and move the slide on with the weak hand. If you use enough brute force or wail on it enough, you can cause this damage. The instruction manual warns about this, but not LOUDLY ENOUGH, in my opinion, or of the consequences.

 

[Longbow]

My friend's Kimber Eclipse had that malfunction happened at a major match. Good thing he has a back up gun to finish the match. He had, since then, disable that safety feature.
I think the Colt and Para FP safety systems are still the best in terms of reliability.

 

[Old Fuff]

Wichaka:

I appreciate you posting this warning, as it may save someone’s neck.

But on a personal basis the Kimber firing pin block system, as well as those used by Colt and Smith & Wesson will never cause me any grief.

Why? Because I’m not dumb enough to own or carry a pistol with these kind of gadgets.

Others can make their own choice.

 

[Jim Watson]

Oh, dear. I thought they had the bugs out of that gimmick before they saddled us with the next mutation, the trick extractor.

The few I have seen lead me to agree with Henry B. They may have gotten rough with their guns when reassembling them after shooting and cleaning on their own time.

We hear how great the Swartz system as adopted by Kimber and S&W is. I just see that Colt did not return to the Swartz system after WW II and when their lawyers told them they needed a firing pin block, used a different pattern. Which had teething troubles, too; but now seems serviceable.

 

[PCRCCW]

Well Im not a 1911 Guru but Ive had a "few"

The problem you bring up is very real and thanks for the refresher.

It is caused by mishandling of the firearm while taking it apart and putting it back togethor.
Someone needs to make hardened A2 tool steel parts for the Kimber safety system.
I dont think its all bad....I love the fact that it doesnt mess up the trigger pull in the process of keeping us safe from ourselves
Shoot well.

 

[waterhouse]

Does this concern series I pistols or just the series II?

thanks

 

[Wichaka]

Just Series II's, as the Series I's do not have the firing pin safety system.

 

[shooter1]

Just the series ll.
str1

 

[scratchy wilson]

Would changing the firing pin to a series 80 defeat/disable the Schwartz system, or is that just WWW feces?

Wichaka-
are they eyeballing your LW Colt now?

Think there's someone local here(been awhile-I don't know if it sold or not) that had a (presumably) NIB ProCarry (think 1st series) for $950ish....

been eating away at me, but is that a reasonable price or out of his gourd?

 

[Wichaka]

I don't know the value of older Kimbers, but from what I've seen of them.........I like them a lot.

Bean counters took over Kimber some years ago, hence the move to NY.

They have also been trying to recruit some of the top factory 'smiths in the country to run their pistol section, but so far no takers. As the 'smiths want certain parts/quality, Kimber wants $.
A lot of their parts are being made in India now, not much for QC. Sad thing, I hope something snaps them out of it.........they had a very good product.

Yes, they have eyeballed my Commander, and a local PD is inquiring of my services to go thru all the new Kimber 1911's they will be getting.
I told them, if they needed me to do that to new pistols, they should maybe find a better model!

Problem is, there isn't much on the market in a 1911 for L.E. that individuals or dept.'s can afford........that provides reliability & durability.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Kimber when I made this last comment.........I'm talking about all makers. Too many cut corners......

 

[Moonclip]

Parts from India in a Kimber now? Wow, I guess I won't be buying one most likely. Where did you hear about Indian parts being used? External extractor,series II, what else is next, an ILS like SA?

 

[1911Tuner]

Pin

Scratchy,

Switching to a standard >pre-Series 80< firing pin would do it. Be aware that in certain unforseen circumstances, disabling a designed-in "safety" feature could have repercussions. But...There is the information to do with as you will.

 

[Jim Watson]

Inserting a standard firing pin will disable the firing pin block by letting it ride against the ungrooved firing pin shank. I have read one (1.0) account of that causing enough friction to misfire. I would take out the superfluous parts or buy a different brand of gun.

 

[Old Fuff]

Ah ... Someone with the guts to tell the truth ...

>> Problem is, there isn't much on the market in a 1911 for L.E. that individuals or dept.'s can afford........that provides reliability & durability.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Kimber when I made this last comment.........I'm talking about all makers. Too many cut corners...... <<

And it doesn't have to be that way. With a few better parts and well trained assembliers and inspectors, an affordable but plain gun could be marketed. So far as law enforcement is concerned, by deducting the 10% excise tax the price would be even better.

 

[M2 Carbine]

If you remove "the superfluous parts" do you still replace the firing pin or does the original firing pin then work?

 

[PCRCCW]

Ill admit to making my Series II Kimbers....Series 1 1/2!

I replaced the firing pin with a std. one after doing it...but you can use the original. It takes removing the rear sight to do it....just another reason to get night sights and putting them on yourself.

Just to politically correct and say"...never try this at home" just for liability reasons......... This has not been PCRCCW and this message will self destruct in 10....9....8

Shoot well.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Thanks.
Yes I know a fellow that routinely removes magazine safeties.

I hate magazine safeties.

 

[45auto]

As I understand it, Kimber produces their own MIM parts now.

Series 1 1 /2 Ha , I like that!

I believe Kimber sells 2 or 3 models without the series II "stuff".

 

[Wichaka]

Anytime a manufacturer puts a warning about possible breakage on a gun when taking it apart or getting it back together............hmmmmmm

That's what we in the L.E. business call a clue!

 

[MICHAEL T]

Lets see the PD can afford Kimbers but can't afford COLTS or S&W 45's Ok. I think they need to do a little more shopping.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I have a first series Kimber .45 A.C.P. It's the gun Colt could have and should have built.

I'm not going to buy a second series Kimber. I loathe, detest, and despise the very idea of "fixing" things that aren't broken.

 

[Old Fuff]

Dear Boy ...

You know as well as I, that the bliss-nannies of the left, are only trying to protect you from yourself. Obviously you lack the judgment to take care of yourself, so for the good of us all they must weigh down your (ugh) pistol with safety devices so you don’t plug yourself or one of them (in particular the latter).

 

[Shootcraps]

Anytime a manufacturer puts a warning about possible breakage on a gun when taking it apart or getting it back together............

Surprising how the manufacturer's have to do that sometimes. I'm sure Kimber isn't the only one.


So Wichaka, your true Kimber-Bashing comes out on THR. You try to hide it on 1911forum so you get sympathy from the mods. But here you let it all hang out.

You refuse to acknowledge that these poor "Officers" could have buggered up their guns on their own. And if they did, it's their fault not Kimber's. Certainly wouldn't be the first time someone reassembled a pistol incorrectly. Instead you blame everything on Kimber.

 

[KadicDeshi]

Actually, I managed to do pretty much the same thing on a Ruger P345. The disassembly lever snapped itself back into the "assembled" position while I was replacing the slide. Locked up tight as a drum. I looked inside the mag well to find that the lever had stuck on something (the magazine disconnect). I didn't know what it was at the time and couldn't really see too well down into the grip to figure out what happened. Well, no problem, I just hit the back of the slide with the heel of my hand to take it back off. When I did, I thought I felt something brush my shirt but couldn't find anything. I examined the slide to see what might have happened and the only thing out of the ordinary that I saw was a round hole filled with a cylindrical metal piece that was spring loaded.

"Ah," I think to myself, "that must be some kind of safety, maybe one of those trigger safetys I've heard tell about that won't let the gun fire unless the trigger is in the rearward position. Looks to be in the right place, just behind the magazine well, near the trigger bar."

Didn't give it another thought until I went to the range later in the week and the gun wouldn't fire. When I got home I dug through the user manual to take a look at the parts and sure enough, that cylindrical piece is the magazine disconnect and is supposed to have another piece sticking out of it.

I returned the gun to my dealer who informed me that it was a Davidson's gun and they'd repair or replace it. That was about the time I asked about trading the replacement for a SA GI Mil-Spec.

(Which subsequently had the back sight fall out while I was dryfiring it after the first trip to the range. :banghead: And I thought that my lousy shooting was because I was just out of practice. Oh, well, now I have an excuse to get a better set of sights. Don't get me wrong, I had a GI that I shot for the better part of a year before making a present of it to a good friend of mine who had no firearms until then. I think they're fine pistols and I wouldn't have presented a friend with one if I felt otherwise. I just happened to get one that maybe had the dovetail cut out of tolerance by a bit. There was no sign it was loose until I'd put about 70 or so down range.)

Now, I'll be the first to admit that I made a mistake by not having a competent gunsmith check the pistol out when it locked up. But, holy crap, I never thought I'd be able to break off a quarter inch chunk of steel by a smart rap with the heel of my palm!

Barrett