Knife v. Gun - Mythbusters style

[k-frame]

Watched the newest Mythbusters last night where they worked on the old adage of "never bring a knife to a gun fight" to see if that's always true. Turns out - sometimes a knife wins. But it depends.

The scenario is Jamie, carrying a knife, runs at Adam who is armed with a paintball gun which he has to draw from an OWB holster, rack and fire.

Inside 16 feet Jamie was able to run and stab Adam.
From 20 feet Adam was the more frequent winner. Barely.
From 24 feet away (or further) Adam had time to shoot Jamie. But sometimes it was close.

To quote Arte Johnson: "Verrrrry interesting." And watching that made me realize that my personal circle of engagement is a lot further than 24 feet since I have the reaction time of a fossilized wooly mammoth.

 

[aeriedad]

The scenario is Jamie, carrying a knife, runs at Adam who is armed with a paintball gun which he has to draw from an OWB holster, rack and fire.

What about draw and fire? Many people carry locked & loaded. Also, what about concealed IWB?

Not sure the numbers mean much without considering at least those two scenarios in addition to that mentioned.

 

[MrDig]

I read somewhere and can't remember the source that 21 feet was a magic number for the person wielding the knife. Meaning if they were 21 feet or less away they stood a good chance of getting to the person holding the gun without being shot, and or being stabbed if you were the one holding the gun.
So when I saw the results of their test I was not surprised.

 

[Losov]

I watched that. It occurred to me that the person initiating the attack has the advantage, whether he's holding a knife or a gun. I'll take the gun.

 

[Fred Fuller]

There's already a thread running on this at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=662563, let me see if there's enough difference to let this one run or not. Closed for the time being...

==============================================

OK, let's see if we can do better here, sticking to strictly ST&T stuff. First of all, see the video at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=661520 if you can do video,

Then, read the article by Dennis Tueller at http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm . This is a concept everyone here should be familiar with, the original idea was first promulgated in 1983, and Tueller is a name absolutely everyone on this forum should know. This is foundation level material for us...

 

[9mmepiphany]

What about draw and fire? Many people carry locked & loaded. Also, what about concealed IWB?

Not sure the numbers mean much without considering at least those two scenarios in addition to that mentioned.

The cock and fire compensates for the delay which would normally occur before a victim would recognize he was under attack.

Usually when testing this kind of stuff on a range, the victim already knows what is about to happen, is waiting for the first movement and has a planned reaction. This is unrealistic for real life. Just making the victim cock the gun still gives him a huge advantage that he wouldn't have if the attack were real.

And watching that made me realize that my personal circle of engagement is a lot further than 24 feet since I have the reaction time of a fossilized wooly mammoth.

Bear in mind that 21, or 24, feet isn't a realistic buffer zone to maintain around yourself...it is the longer than length of many family rooms. The drill was meant to demonstrate that inside normal distances, going for a holstered handgun shouldn't be your first option, as you won't be able to deploy it fast enough.

Most knife attacks start with just 6 feet separating the attacker and the defender

 

[ForumSurfer]

And watching that made me realize that my personal circle of engagement is a lot further than 24 feet since I have the reaction time of a fossilized wooly mammoth.

Bear in mind that 21, or 24, feet isn't a realistic buffer zone to maintain around yourself...it is the longer than length of many family rooms. The drill was meant to demonstrate that inside normal distances, going for a holstered handgun shouldn't be your first option, as you won't be able to deploy it fast enough.

Also keep in mind how fast humans move. 7 mph is a spirited walk; not a lunge, run, jog or dash. That's 10 1/4 feet per second. It took actually experimenting with that scenario for it to sink in with me (with a good friend, a wrestling mat and some airsoft). Even out of the confines of your home where you have freedom to move, you need to incorporate some movement and hand to hand technique or you're behind the curve in a bad way.

 

[Owen Sparks]

A human being can out run a drag racer for the first five yards. Humans are quick. They can reach full speed in just a few steps. If a man charges at you with a knife and you are not expecting it you are done. Even if you are expecting it the knife man has the advantage within seven yards if you are drawing from concealment. Noitice that in the show Adam was wearing a cowboy style rig with his hand inched from the pistol.

 

[Bobson]

The drill was meant to demonstrate that inside normal distances, going for a holstered handgun shouldn't be your first option, as you won't be able to deploy it fast enough.

So what is recommended? Attempting to deflect or redirect the attack?

 

[aeriedad]

The cock and fire compensates for the delay which would normally occur before a victim would recognize he was under attack.

Usually when testing this kind of stuff on a range, the victim already knows what is about to happen, is waiting for the first movement and has a planned reaction. This is unrealistic for real life. Just making the victim cock the gun still gives him a huge advantage that he wouldn't have if the attack were real.

All good points. But what about the many good citizens carrying IWB, or something similar? As I understand it, the Mythbusters experiment was OWB. I've not conducted my own trials, nor examined others. Still, it seems to me that clearing a cover garment for the draw from IWB, then firing from cocked & locked would likely take longer than drawing from OWB and racking the slide to fire. I figure proficiency at racking the slide develops faster and smoother than clearing a cover garment for draw. In the mind rush of a genuine self-defense situation, I believe I would be more likely to fumble a concealed IWB draw of a cocked & locked weapon than an OWB weapon needing a round chambered. Of course, I'm not really sure of all this, and would like to see an experiment that covers a couple of such scenarios to either confirm or challenge my thinking.

 

[hso]

Attempting to deflect or redirect the attack?

Bingo!

It is rare you'd actually have the time to just draw and fire and stop an attack. You also should understand that some attackers just won't stop even when hit COM the first (or third time) and you have to be prepared to move, deflect and buy yourself time and distance to stop an attack. You're in a fight for your life so don't depend only upon one tool. Practice with a buddy and an airsoft pistol and you'll soon learn that moving, guarding and even simple kicks can by you time to make more shots count.

I've been the attacker in training. When you toss multiple choices into the scenario so the defender doesn't know where the attack is coming from (or even if it is coming) the time and distance to defend with a firearm grows even more than what was shown. Uncertainty in the scenario more closely represents the type of lesson that applies to actual self defense situations instead of the fully prepared one-on-one people talk about.

 

[joneb]

Inside 16 feet Jamie was able to run and stab Adam.

So if I shoot someone with a knife inside 21' ? is it self defense ?

 

[9mmepiphany]

So what is recommended? Attempting to deflect or redirect the attack?

Given the distance, I'd pass the strike and attack the arm and work either up or down depending on the desire to stop or flee.

At closer quarters, I'd move inside, stop the hand and the shoulder, take the arm and then the head

If I had time/distance to deploy a blade, I'd stay outside, take the flexor in the forearm, the tricep in the upper arm and the quadricep in the upper leg.

But that is just what I have trained in and practice

 

[9mmepiphany]

Still, it seems to me that clearing a cover garment for the draw from IWB, then firing from cocked & locked would likely take longer than drawing from OWB and racking the slide to fire. I figure proficiency at racking the slide develops faster and smoother than clearing a cover garment for draw.

I've never tried it with a paintball gun, but back in the late 70s, when comparing the speed to deploy a 1911 from an IWB holster (Milt Sparks Summer Special) and a Isreali carry from an OWB holster (Bianchi Atkinson Avenger) the advantage went to the IWB when you included accurate shots on target. Racking the slide is highly disruptive to the draw stroke

In the mind rush of a genuine self-defense situation, I believe I would be more likely to fumble a concealed IWB draw of a cocked & locked weapon than an OWB weapon needing a round chambered. Of course, I'm not really sure of all this, and would like to see an experiment that covers a couple of such scenarios to either confirm or challenge my thinking.

If you practice drawing from cover, it becomes a non-issue. Clearing the cover garment is just part of bringing your hand back above the butt before taking the master grip.

It is slower if I think about clearing the cover correctly, rather than just letting my hand move to the gun. Getting a good grip on the gun in a well designed IWB holster is just a matter of leaning away to clear the gun from your side to let the strong thumb slip in between the butt and your clothing

 

[9mmepiphany]

So if I shoot someone with a knife inside 21' ? is it self defense ?

I'd highly recommend you take a class where this can be explained, demonstrated and experienced rather than base your actions on something you read hear.

Using the justification, "I read it on the internet", is going to sound pretty weak

 

[MachIVshooter]

A human being can out run a drag racer for the first five yards

As in a person racing on foot, dressed in drag? Because if you're talking cars, you are way off; Top fuel cars hit 60 MPH before the rear tires cross the starting line.

 

[joneb]

I'd highly recommend you take a class where this can be explained, demonstrated and experienced rather than base your actions on something you read hear.

Using the justification, "I read it on the internet", is going to sound pretty weak

Perhaps you don't get the gist of my question ?
It requires a bit of deeper thought.

 

[Owen Sparks]

MachIVShooter is right. I did some research and a human can outrun a regular street legal CAR for the first five yards, not a top fuel drag racer.

I stand corrected.

 

[Skribs]

The draw stroke is the only complaint I have with my newest attempt at a IWB holster - crossbreed supertuck. Maybe I should get the combat cut, problem is gripping it.

If I saw someone coming at me with a knife, and I didn't have time to draw, my instict would be to use it against him while it's in his hand. Grab the forearm, spin under it, and the motion will twist it into his gut. But in response to this, some videos I watched from the late Paul Gomez, and the fact that I can't even have a gun in the car at work, I'm looking at taking up a martial art.

 

[ForumSurfer]

The draw stroke is the only complaint I have with my newest attempt at a IWB holster - crossbreed supertuck. Maybe I should get the combat cut, problem is gripping it.

I like a combat cut on all of my holsters. It gets hot and humid around here and I'm an active guy so I sweat over, around and through "sweat shields" or body shields. I'd rather have the combat cut, the discomfort doesn't bother me. If you already have a supertuck, you can just cut it yourself. It isn't too hard. That way you get a combat cut just for you.

 

[Owen Sparks]

I would like to see this experiment duplicated except where the good guy has a padded 3' boffer to represent a walking cane. (Yes, you can have a 'walking cane' in your car at work Skribs) With your hand already on the stick it would be easy to side-step and swing. People do not realize what a formidable weapon a heavy walking stick can be and they are legal everywhere, even on airplanes.

 

[Skribs]

That's a good point, Owen.

 

[xXxplosive]

Saw it.............wasn't impressed.....drawing and racking the slide is not suggested....why I carry Condition 1.

 

[Elm Creek Smith]

Many years ago, I had to execute the Tueller Drill in person. I still have the scars from the knife wounds on my left hand. I survived because: 1) my attacker screamed as he started his unprovoked attack from between two parked cars, 2) I had room to back up before running into my family (wife and two small girls), 3) we were in an open carry state, and 4) I practiced drawing and firing exhaustively. (I was shooting competitively in Bianchi Cup and IPSC in those days.) If my assailant had been skilled in knife fighting, I probably would have died horribly. These days, I carry a blackthorne walking stick when out and about with family in addition to my regular load.

ECS

 

[Owen Sparks]

A stick in hand is much faster than a holstered pistol.