Knife v. Gun - Mythbusters style

[MachIVshooter]

A stick in hand is much faster than a holstered pistol.

Yes, it is. As are your hands. It would suck to get a knife through the forearm, but that is far preferable to one sticking out of your chest or head. If someone is inside 20', you most likely have less than one second to register the threat, clear cover garment, draw and fire. Very, very few people are that fast. Bob Munden could drop a half dozen knife-wielding foes coming at him from just a few paces (the man can draw and fire in 0.02 seconds, and can make 2 shots from a single action revolver sound like one), but most of us probably can't even clear leather before we get poked.

 

[HarryB]

I think they were having Adam rack the pistol to compare it to using a single action pistol since it was from the Magnificent Seven.

 

[7624452]

"No battle plan survives contact with the enemy"
Field Marshal Helmuth Karl Bernhard Graf von Moltke

 

[mgkdrgn]

Watched the newest Mythbusters last night where they worked on the old adage of "never bring a knife to a gun fight" to see if that's always true. Turns out - sometimes a knife wins. But it depends.

The scenario is Jamie, carrying a knife, runs at Adam who is armed with a paintball gun which he has to draw from an OWB holster, rack and fire.

Inside 16 feet Jamie was able to run and stab Adam.
From 20 feet Adam was the more frequent winner. Barely.
From 24 feet away (or further) Adam had time to shoot Jamie. But sometimes it was close.

To quote Arte Johnson: "Verrrrry interesting." And watching that made me realize that my personal circle of engagement is a lot further than 24 feet since I have the reaction time of a fossilized wooly mammoth.

We did the same exercise in our CCW class, and at Front Sight.

Bottom line, if you have someone running at you from 20 feet away, and you have not drawn and aimed yet, you're going to get hit -before- you are going to get a round off. That is why Front Sight kept on drilling us on "getting off the X" after we fire ... even if we DO get a round off, the BG's sheer momentum will get you hit if you don't move.

 

[Skribs]

I'm just wondering how this drill works with people of different physical capabilities. If you had someone with really fast hands, like any of the popular martial artists in TV (specifically people known for fast hands, like Jackie Chan, Donnie Yen, or Jet Li) or a magician skilled with slight of hand, would they do better?

 

[MachIVshooter]

If you had someone with really fast hands, like any of the popular martial artists in TV (specifically people known for fast hands, like Jackie Chan, Donnie Yen, or Jet Li) or a magician skilled with slight of hand, would they do better?

I don't think you need to ponder much. Of course people in better shape who move faster and have better reaction times than the average joe will fare better defensing themselves. Physical size and strength is going to matter, too. Someone like me (5'10", 185 lbs, fit) is going to have a much easier time deflecting a blow/knife jab from a 150 pound guy than a 300 pound monster of a man.

 

[Skribs]

I was more referring to the drill itself. Would someone with faster hands need less room? Or is the reaction time and time to point/aim the greater portion of the time?

Of course, on the other side, if you had an olympic sprinter, then you'd need more distance.

 

[ForumSurfer]

I was more referring to the drill itself. Would someone with faster hands need less room? Or is the reaction time and time to point/aim the greater portion of the time?

Are you referring to the extraordinarily quick guy being the one drawing and blocking or the extraordinarily quick guy being the aggressor?

Of course, on the other side, if you had an olympic sprinter, then you'd need more distance.

Try it with a friend. The average person can walk quickly at 7 miles per hour, add a few MPH for diving or sprinting. That's right around 10 feet per second. Humans accelerate rapidly, so don't even factor that in. That means if an opponent is rushing you and you have an extremely fast draw time of 1.5 seconds (likely you'll hit that under stress and being caught off gaurd), you need a minimum of 15 feet to even get a hit. Even if you are super fast and you can pull off a miracle CNS shot under pressure, that person is still coming at you with a blade (albeit dead). The more you actually try it with a friend, the more you'll want to take martial arts classes. I remember you said you liked airsoft from another discussion, right? Get a rubber knife, a friend and try a scenario. You'll be amazed at what you find. I was.

 

[Skribs]

ForumSurfer, I was more referring to this, although I didn't ask the question well:

Is the greater part of the time to draw and fire the draw, or the aim and fire?

 

[Zoogster]

The longest portion in real life is going to be deciding you need to draw and making the right decision.
That is removed from the drill, you know you need to draw.
If you draw on the wrong person in real life you can go to jail and lose your right to own firearms in the future.


In the drill if you are wearing something close to realistic the longest part is going to be the draw.
Aiming and firing is easy compared to drawing.

Most active people will never need to defend themselves, but will need to keep a gun they carry from falling out on the ground, falling out when they sit down, or being lost in general.
In fact some forms of retention, and maybe even straps may be the best choice of carry for many. Especially if they are at all active. If they rarely move more than a few mph they might get away with less retention, but they will have to operate around that restriction.
Keeping control of and ownership of a firearm in a busy or active lifestyle doesn't favor a holster good for a speed draw.
This will slow draw speed some.

People will also have some form of cover garment, such as a shirt or additional barriers.
In a pre planned quick draw grabbing the garment in just the right place or sweeping it out of the way is easy, in real life it may not entirely clear or snag a little slowing the draw.

The people known for being the fastest to draw and fire do it with special holsters they open carry in. They provide almost no retention, and if they even ran 20 feet the gun would fall out in many cases. They also offer no resistance to others grabbing at or taking the gun in public.
Clearly not a realistic holster someone would actually walk around in.



So you need to clear a cover garment and reach in, grab the gun in the right spots, not shoot yourself in the leg/side or discharge the firearm early, and pull it out and orient the muzzle towards the target. Aiming and firing after that point is easy and fast.
So the longest part is taking the gun out. Once the gun is out and aimed the defender already has the advantage if there is still more than arm's reach separating them.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Skeins when I run drills my finger is pressing the trigger when I punch out on the 4th part of the 4 count drill. Train enough and it's not too hard. This is when referencing these distances we're discussing. Now if I want to hit a 4" plate at 25 yards, I need a bit to aim. I've honestly never timed that, but now I want to.

So with proper training, I feel the draw is the far greater time. It all depends on the shooter's ability, though.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Is the greater part of the time to draw and fire the draw, or the aim and fire?

Defensive shooting doesn't really involve "aiming"; There is insufficient time. It's point shooting. If you have time to get a sight picture, great, but don't train expecting that. Learn to shoot from retention and other more realistic postions. If a guy is rushing you with a blade, you don't have time to draw a bead on his COM like you do in an NRA basic pistol course, and he's not static like your basic pistol silhouette.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Is the greater part of the time to draw and fire the draw, or the aim and fire?

It has been my experience that, with a practiced shooter, the draw takes longer than acquiring the sights and pressing the trigger.

Drawing requires that you react to a stimulus, establish the Master Grip on the gun, clear the holster, and rotate the gun level with the target and bring the hands together....Steps 1, 2 and 3 in a four step draw

Aim and Fire, only requires that you bring the gun to eye level and press the trigger...Step 4, you don't even have to get all the way to full extension before you break the shot.

A less practiced shooter will get all the way to the end of Step 4 before they aim and start the trigger press...that will either take longer or result in poor shot placement

 

[semperfi63]

Are you referring to the extraordinarily quick guy being the one drawing and blocking or the extraordinarily quick guy being the aggressor?



Try it with a friend. The average person can walk quickly at 7 miles per hour, add a few MPH for diving or sprinting. That's right around 10 feet per second. Humans accelerate rapidly, so don't even factor that in. That means if an opponent is rushing you and you have an extremely fast draw time of 1.5 seconds (likely you'll hit that under stress and being caught off gaurd), you need a minimum of 15 feet to even get a hit. Even if you are super fast and you can pull off a miracle CNS shot under pressure, that person is still coming at you with a blade (albeit dead). The more you actually try it with a friend, the more you'll want to take martial arts classes. I remember you said you liked airsoft from another discussion, right? Get a rubber knife, a friend and try a scenario. You'll be amazed at what you find. I was.

Okay I've let this slide a couple of times but NO the average human cannot walk 7 mph. that is a 8 minute 34 second per mile pace. The average human walks at about 16 minutes per mile

 

[highlander 5]

IIRC Mas Ayoob covered this in many articles in American Handgunner. He wrote about doing the excerise of a runner at 21 ft with a "knife" to charge a man with a "gun" and in almost every case the man with a "knife" won everytime. Physical shape played little effect on the drill as well. He had an older lady in one of his classes who had bad anles and she covered the 21 ft in under the 2 sec time easily.

 

[aeriedad]

People will also have some form of cover garment, such as a shirt or additional barriers.
In a pre planned quick draw grabbing the garment in just the right place or sweeping it out of the way is easy, in real life it may not entirely clear or snag a little slowing the draw.

This is what I've been thinking. I do practice drawing from concealment several nights per week (four or five reps each time), and several more times at the range two or three Saturdays each month, but I always know I'm about to draw. Mostly it's snag-free, but not always.

How will it go in a genuine self-defense encounter? Hope I never find out, and yet I know I should practice more.

 

[Risky]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is why on earth would you stand still and try to draw unless you were backed into a corner or indoors. If you have enough coordination to draw from concealment you should be able to manage a slightly slower draw on the move. If you can move in line away from the attacker, you could pretty much enable yourself near infinite time to draw, then turn and shoot while still mildly backpedaling... and you might even be able to completely outrun your attacker completely. Even if you can only move perpendicularly, you would would put your attacker on a curve while you move straight, making them lose momentum at least, if not giving yourself that extra couple of seconds in order to clear the holster.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I do practice drawing from concealment several nights per week (four or five reps each time)

Try upping it to 10 reps. Break the draw down to the individual steps and practice each step separately. Work on clearing the cover garment and getting the Master Grip one day; clearing leather and rotating the next; etc.

How will it go in a genuine self-defense encounter? Hope I never find out, and yet I know I should practice more.

When you start feeling comfortable, try out an IDPA match and see how you do under pressure

 

[foghornl]

I sort of saw that epsiode, but I was working, so I couldn't pay as much attention as I would like.

I did get the point (pun warning) that if knife-guy is within 21 feet, well chances are you are 'toast'.

 

[Owen Sparks]

The ONLY thing that will stop a charging man and physically reject him backwards is a driving kick to the body. You can't stand still and do this. You must meet him with your body in motion behind the kick or he will bowl you over. This takes a fair amount of training and a healthty in shape body but it can be done.

 

[fallout mike]

Risky, I was about to ask the same question. That would kill their entire discussion though. If you don't have the sense to move away from the attacker while drawing rather than standing still waiting on death then that's probably just mother nature weeding out the imbeciles.

 

[skoro]

In all cases, the attacker has the initial edge. He chooses the target and initiates the action, The victim is left to recognize and react to the attack.

Since it's much more likely that I'd be the target of an attack rather than the attacker, I'll continue to carry a firearm for SD. I'm convinced I can get a pocket pistol into action quicker than I can a folding pocket knife.

And something that I don't recall ever seeing discussed/tested is the situation where the attacker pulls a pistol and the defender is armed with a knife.

So, I'll stick with what I've used and what I'm used to.

 

[Husker_Fan]

It's also not just moving away. Lateral movement (perpendicular to the direction the attacker is moving) forces the attacker to change his angle of approach. It also gets you out of the way if you do manage to hit him and his momentum keeps him moving.

 

[chrome_austex]

The ONLY thing that will stop a charging man and physically reject him backwards is a driving kick to the body. You can't stand still and do this. You must meet him with your body in motion behind the kick or he will bowl you over. This takes a fair amount of training and a healthty in shape body but it can be done.

Agreed. A leg is longer than an arm, and if the attacker is hell-bent on using a knife (and not grappling you to the ground), a good front or side kick is a hell of a good start.

A practiced martial artist may also avoid once the attacker is committed, but freezing or backing up is the most likely. Deal with the immediate threat as best you can, and then draw.

 

[dayhiker]

The ONLY thing that will stop a charging man and physically reject him backwards is a driving kick to the body. You can't stand still and do this. You must meet him with your body in motion behind the kick or he will bowl you over. This takes a fair amount of training and a healthty in shape body but it can be done.

Don't agree with the driving kick, but do agree with going on the offensive and closing with the attacker. Going hands an feet with the BG (off the X or inside his striking area) is better to me than standing still and trying to draw.