Knife v. Gun - Mythbusters style

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A while back, I remember watching a video of a man in South America who had a large knife or bayonet cutting up several police officers (whose tactics admittedly sucked). The point was, there were a number of armed, ostensibly trained individuals he was chasing around, cutting, putting on the ground, and they couldn't lay hands on the guy until one of them finally wised up and shot him as he was trying to stick another one so he could escape.

At least one of those guys died. But all of them ran from him, whenever he picked them as the target of the knife.

I'm thinking, avoid standing there, draw and move, and shoot him as soon as you can, as much as you can, until he's no longer a threat.
 
Things I learned:

Isreali carry (chamber empty) is BAD.

Someone running full tilt at you is scary to most people.

If you don't train for that.. your best bet is to run.

If you HAVE trained for that, don't stand still trying to draw and shoot while a maniac is moving at you.
 
I would guess that at 20 ft someone with some MMA skills could give you an empty hand beat down before you coud draw and fire under the right conditions.
 
The "drill" mainly serves to let us know how hard it is to react, draw, and fire a killing round.

It makes some unrealistic assumptions, though.

During the drill, you...the defender...are fully aware of what is coming, and you're watching for him to make the move. In reality, he'll have over half the distance covered before you even realize that something is wrong...and that assumes that he initiates the attack from 21 feet. In the real world, he'll edge in much closer unless he's an idiot or drunk.

Real blade men don't telegraph their punch, nor do they talk very much once they've decided to cut you. They're not interested in a duel or a fair fight or proving anything. Their goal is to cut you to ribbons and disappear while you're trying to figure out how long you've got to get to the hospital before you bleed out. They operate on the dictum that the best fight is over before the loser realizes that it's started...and you'll probably never see the knife.

Bob Munden would get cut.
 
I personally think the statement "bob munden would get cut" is a unrealistic assumption. We have a known factor in that munden is THE fastest draw ever recorded in the history of fast draw against an unknown in that we have no clue who joe blow on the street with a knife is. I believe the original argument is that who wins at a known distance against a known foe. Not that a guy with a knife will stab and slice you unawares from behind.
 
However, I do believe that joe blow on the street with a gun loses if he stands still trying to draw. I have been attacked with a knife before. It started from a distance of about 3 feet. A gun would not have helped. Hand to hand skills saved my life.
 
A really good option would be to keep your weight down, run and keep your body in good shape so that you could outrun the average person, at least long enough to get your weapon drawn. If you are quick and can sidestep and circle off to the side like a bull fighter you would have a real chance against a knife.
 
If you are quick and can sidestep and circle off to the side like a bull fighter you would have a real chance against a knife.
Click to expand...

Hence why I'm considering bagua as my martial arts supplement.
 
I generally pocket carry which, if you don't practice, worse than IWB carry. I mean generally speaking, I would just try and get away. The real problem is when you have your wife or children or whoever with you and something like occurs, running away is not really an option, to me at least. One of the tools I utilize besides carrying a weapon is situational awareness. I practice that more than trying to draw the pocket pistol. The pistol would be my last ditch defense, even putting my arms up to deflect an attack would come first.
 
I believe the original argument is that who wins at a known distance against a known foe.
Click to expand...

And it's still an unrealistic exercise. Some people will win. It makes others believe that, with practice, they can win. Of course Bob Munden can win if he knows what's about to happen and sees his attacker move.

Reality check.

The experienced knife fighter isn't going to let you know that he's a threat until he cuts you. He's not going to announce that he has a knife and intends to use it from 20 feet away. He'll walk up to you with a smile on his face, and when he gets within strike distance...you're cut.

The drill opens eyes and puts knife attacks in perspective and little else.
 
I agree with you tuner, but I think we are arguing different points. In my experience, the guys approached me and one of them drew a knife on me and demanded my wallet, which they most certainly did not get. I would think this is the norm for their approach. A thief is not necessarily a killer.. My entire mindset has got to change now though due do to my arm injury. My fighting skills and strength are forever lost. Now my only option is drawing a gun..
 
In my concealed carry class the instructor had one of the students initiated by the first whistle draw from a non-concealed holster and fire two shots into a sillouette which initiated the second whistle. Meanwhile another student covered as much distance as he could from the first to the second whistle; I believe he covered 27 feet which for a 'normal' person would be 6-7 steps. If the person firing had initiated the drill when the runner took off that would have probably added at least 3 more steps to the distance.
 
Now my only option is drawing a gun..
Click to expand...


Your legs are not gone, I think the main point of any 21' drill is that you must at least move and probably deflect prior to even attempting to deploy a gun. In the best case you will avoid a cut and draw and fire ending the fight.
 
Xrap, I agree with you and have stated the need to move away while drawing in a previous post. What I am trying to convey is that in the past I had the confidence to defend myself with my hands against anyone. Now im actually kind of nervous about knowing I can no longer do so and will have to depend on having a weapon close at hand.
 
Sooner or later it will happen to all of us. Age simply diminishes us physically plus injury accelerates it. Understanding and accepting and doing our best to make accomodations is whats important.
 
work on your draw. Burn it into muscle memory. 1000's of draws. Dont worry about speed, worry about smooth. Smooth IS fast.

at 21 ft.. I'd probably die in a knife fight. IF I had my leg holster, and my ruger on my side (what I've practiced with the most) I could have it drawn and fired before he reached me if we both had to react. If I have to react..
1/4 second to observe with an action already in my head. 1/2 - 3/4 if I haven't decided on what I'm doing. Reaction is WAY faster than action. As an example:

I was slap boxing with a golden gloves winner. Couldn't get in on him to save my life. I could get a shot in, but not before he touched me. IF I initiated.. I was toast. He did something, I don't even remember what it was.. that triggered a reaction from my martial arts days. I planted a front kick in his solar plexus.. He looked at me like wth.. but I beat his hand in. I had to apologize.. I hadn't hit him hard after all, I pulled it 1/2 way through.. and I had to explain it was a trained reaction.
 
A front thrust or side kick is the only thing that will physically knock a charging opponant back. Bullets will not dispite what you see in the movies. A double tap to the chest may cause the bad guy to die but it may take a little while. We have all seen deer take one through the heart and lungs and still make it 50 yards or more before folding up. A determined man is no different. Even if you distroy his heart and both lungs he can still live long enough to deliver a solid stab unless you luck up and hit his spinal cord or the lower brain stem.
 
I don't get why you would put yourself on one leg against a serious attack when your leg could get trapped and soon it would be game over. In a sparing match of MMA contest it would be fine but in life and death moving off his line, deflecting and putting your gun to work after getting some distance seems like the most survivable option.
How many times have you seen guys in the ring go down while exacuting a kick of have their leg trapped?
 
Situational awareness, some level of mobility and fitness, and carry a gun you are trained with and can draw quickly and fire in self defense.

Ask yourself about the circumstances you'd find yourself in where someone is going to unprovokedly come at you with a knife. Nighttime, secluded areas like alleys and parking lots, etc. Nobody should be closing within 30 feet without your "Spidey sense" on and your hand ready to draw, maybe even on the grip of your pistol under your shirt.

Heighten your sense of awareness and keep more distance with folks.

If someone lunges at you with a knife, consider running away as you draw, rather than standing there and absorbing the attack, to give yourself critical time/distance, which is your friend.
 
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Excellent discussion. Nothing I didn't "know" before, but knowing isn't always enough.

For me, the discussion brings to mind the advantages of vest or jacket pocket carry (the hand can be on the grip and tells me that I should probably make a habit of carrying my Blackthorn.

My takeaway points from this!

From 19111Tuner: Real blade men don't telegraph their punch, nor do they talk very much once they've decided to cut you. They're not interested in a duel or a fair fight or proving anything. Their goal is to cut you to ribbons and disappear while you're trying to figure out how long you've got to get to the hospital before you bleed out. They operate on the dictum that the best fight is over before the loser realizes that it's started...and you'll probably never see the knife.
Click to expand...

From Owen Sparks: A double tap to the chest may cause the bad guy to die but it may take a little while. We have all seen deer take one through the heart and lungs and still make it 50 yards or more before folding up. A determined man is no different. Even if you distroy his heart and both lungs he can still live long enough to deliver a solid stab unless you luck up and hit his spinal cord or the lower brain stem.
Click to expand...
 
Even if you distroy his heart and both lungs he can still live long enough to deliver a solid stab unless you luck up and hit his spinal cord or the lower brain stem.
Click to expand...

That's why you keep pulling the trigger until he stops or the slide locks back. Hopefully the first one happens first.
 
People can continue to fight for a number of seconds after receiving a deadly wounds. There were documented cases during the French Revolution where people were beheaded and the severed head continued to blink and make attempts to speak for ten seconds or more after being severed from the body. It takes a while for the central nervous system to shut down. Remember it takes less than two seconds for a healthy adult male to cover seven yards. Most people can't even draw from concealment and get a shot off that fast when they know it is coming. Center mass hits with bullets do not knock people down. Center mass kicks do. If you are young and in shape LEARN HOW TO FIGHT!
 
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