Knives In Self-defence: What Are Your Objectives?

[bikerdoc]

Virtual m/c I'm in Bottom rocker could say CYBERSPACE Hows that for claiming territory!
Ride with a guy mamed Drool- yes he doeswho puts lug nuts and ball bearings in his vest to launch at errant cagers
On topic his sissy bar is a detachable fantasy knife

 

[The Tourist]

We might have started the first virtual M/C club.

Ouch. I got into trouble one time over this very thing. There actually is a cyber cycle club.

 

[Prototypeperson]

:banghead:What would you do if you didn't have a knife? Well, do that, but with a knife in your hand. Anything is better than nothing, and while a "knife fight" sounds undesireable, a knife can definitely turn the tide of a "fight". At the very least a knife can be a pressure weapon, just like a car key. If someone without a weapon gets in close to you, just one or more random stabs in their torso could easily turn the tide into your favor. While pulling a knife on a possible attacker would probably NEVER be a good idea, it sure can be nice to have. The best possible idea is to cut them, then run the eff away! That's the point, right?

 

[Matt_W]

The most effective knife for SD is a sword.

I imagine that the single best way to use a knife in SD is to literally tear the attacker into pieces using the knife as a tool to help you achieve that aim, but having said that who can honestly say that they are capable of being violent enough whilst using a knife for SD?

I am starting to think that the single biggest reason knives are generally not the best for SD is because of what one would actually have to do with the thing to get it's full potential.

Which probably explains how come they are so effective for murder.

Not really a very nice thing to think about really.

 

[The Tourist]

Which probably explains how come they are so effective for murder.

Many times when we debate 'Knife fights' we are actually referring to "knife attacks." Those are two very differing incidents.

You could be attacked and never have known it was coming.

Then again, James Keating and Jerry Vancook teach knife fighting.

I must admit, I'm sort of in a third category. For lack of a better explanation, let's call it a "preemptive tool."

My formative years of young adulthood were spent on a college campus in flames and in a bike club. You would be amazed at how alert you become when there is a very real chance everyone could be dangerous.

You watch everyone's hands, you sit with your back to the wall. Even at a campus' McDonalds.

But I have no training in edged fighting. To give myself a chance, I would often muse how I should react if fighting began. How would I make the best use of the only weapon I had.

Because of TV champion poker we call decisive nuances "tells." Is a hinkie guy predominately left or right handed. Does he have a long coat or an inappropriate package. Have I seen him before.

(Did you know that in every serious SDS riot the same student with bright, long red hair was always in the front of the mob, egging everyone on.)

Was this important? I believe it was. I got caught with my guard down once. I was on State Street with another biker friend and we noticed things getting tense. But we stayed out of curiosity and "to finish our beers."

Instantly a large European style water cannon "strafed" State Street with the strongest, dense tear gas I have ever seen. Students blocks away later complained that this gas seeped into their closed up apartment buildings.

I saw the signs. I sat on my butt. I paid the price. However, it did change my perspective.

 

[Okiecruffler]

Honestly I don't think I would attempt to use a knife for SD. If it comes to that we're talking very up close and personel. I have no training with a knife, no experience. With my bare hands I have no training, but I have, shall we say, previous knowledge. I think a knife would actually be more of a hinderance, tying up one hand that I need to use.

 

[The Tourist]

I use my hands for work, as well. However, I live in The Peoples' Republik of Wisconsin. No CCW provision.

I may cut my hand in a fight, but I'm not much good as tinker if I'm dead.

 

[JShirley]

using it closed as an "impact tool,"

Yup. You don't have to use the flipper, either. A piece of aluminum (your handle) will work just fine.

Tourist is right. Generally, there are few fights, just knifings. The best time to use a knife is when you've somehow been taking by surprise, and the BG is literally on top of you- and can't see your blade coming.

In general, as the defender, distance is your friend.

John

 

[hso]

I'd go for a near instantly fatal strike with whatever blade I had.

No such thing. Nothing is 100%.



Medical Miracles
Mike lived after being stabbed with a knife in his skull.
Largest Object Removed
The largest object to be removed from the human skull was a 20.32 cm (8 inch) survival knife from the head of 41 year-old Michael Hill. In April of 1998, Michael answered the door to his friend's place and had a knife plunged into his skull. He then walked down the street to another friend's house. Four hours later the knife was removed. Michael didn't even have an infection and was well enough to leave the hospital a week later. Since his close brush with death, Michael's memory isn't the same and he needs medication to prevent seizures.

 

[The Tourist]

...if we believe that the only concept of winning is the death of the aggressor...

My intention is to simply slice the wrist on the hand that has grabbed me.

If he wants to press another attack 'unarmed' with only one hand against a stronger man with two good arms and a knife, so be it.

Now, here's a dirty little secret. Sometimes amongst knowledgeable hunters they remark, "Know the characteristics of your prey."

After all of these decades, I still can't figure out drunken townies. Considering my state's lack of a CCW provision, about the only thing I can assume is that I will standing between my wife and safety against a besotted man with only my knife. I'm just going to make that tool razor sharp.

 

[JShirley]

if we believe that the only concept of winning is the death of the aggressor

This is something that was hammered home to me many times in training, and more while studying military history.

In fact, despite the many fictional exploits attributed to them, the nin in ninja indicates one who endures humiliation. In other words, losing face could be a win, if you get to go home, or get to get your family home safely.

I could even see telling an aggressor "There's no way I could beat you in a fight. I'm just not worth it, so why don't you let me go."

If he feels that he's won, and I get to leave safely and without any legal trouble, I've won, too.

Now, whether this might be a good strategy might depend on whether I lived or had to work in the area in dispute. If I have to go there every day, I'd have to carefully evaluate such a statement. If this is just some insecure type needing to feel masculine/capable, maybe this could be used. OTOH, if I think I will then be subject to continual abuse, this would not be a win.

John

 

[Biker]

Well said, John - the "continual abuse" part. There's a time and place for everything.

Biker

 

[The Tourist]

This is why I used the idea of an "aggressor" and being with my wife.

And as Biker said, there is a time and place.

If you would divide my life in half, you would find more adrenaline on the first half of my life than on the second.

That does not signify a change to pacifism or a lack of the necessary experience. I simply have learned that only fools rush in.

Oh, and my knives are of better quality and sharper now.

 

[hso]

To add to the "time and place" perspective, I don't get in fights, but I've defended myself 3 times on the street. First and last left people injured and in need of medical care. The second ended with no one hurt. While I was set to break his wrist and elbow, my inspired words calmed my attacker (large drunk weightlifter sort who'd grabbed me by the throat late one night while I was visiting NYC). Not every situation requires the use of nuclear weapons.

 

[seeker_two]

...if we believe that the only concept of winning is the death of the aggressor...

....and we're back to the "stopping power vs. killing power" debate argued time and again in the firearms sections......

Maybe we'd better define what we mean by "self-defense" here......

 

[The Tourist]

Maybe we'd better define what we mean by "self-defense" here......

I would simply mean it to be "the defense of one's self."

For example, I could use an early 20th century Howdah pistol and blow your atoms clean into the next decade.

Or I could inform you that my cousin Alan is in the mafia and you would run screaming into the night.

In both cases I have "defended one's self," but your body (for the moment) is in two distinctly differing states of being.

However, unless I missed a memo, the use of force for defense has never demanded a life be taken. It has always meant the cessation of the attack.

The problem included in that debate is that many of the best options for stopping an aggressive attack end in the attacker's death.

 

[theken206]

Knife fight I agree is a loaded term. Even when multiple knives are involved its usaully a group affair or as stated an ATTACK where someone got there own blade into play as well.

OBJECTIVE, Get me and mine home alive, no matter what.



Be first and fastest in all things, commit fully and compleatly winning and surviving, be it killing,need it be dying, to using foot jitsu or nike foo and running like a a multiple felon from the cops.

distance, angles, objects, enviroment, superiour mindset, superiour skills, the will to win and LIVE above all things


"But I have no training in edged fighting. To give myself a chance, I would often muse how I should react if fighting began. How would I make the best use of the only weapon I had."

Some relative minded people, some rubber knives coated in bright red lipstick, even soft tipped dark colored high lighters, white sweats, white t.

Learned alot from that when my friends and I were younger, I found.

One lesson was that aginst someone else with a "blade", trying there damndest as well to "kill" you that is commited and not a total noob.

"one goes to the mourge, one goes to the ER" as the saying goes

This became apperant when group scenarios were applied to trying to disarm someone. One guy could cut and stick two of three guys pretty good if he was fas before they could do much unarmed.

The third often recieved no wounds or relativley superficial ones if he pressed hard into action after the intitial surge of "violence".

Just some of my rambling thoughts

 

[JShirley]

Interesting thoughts, thanks.

Does the Ken in your name refer to fist, sword, or a name?

John

 

[Ivy Mike]

My objective would be the same as if I had a gun.

Bury the blade in vital points as deep as possible until the attacker is on the ground and not moving.

http://www.yousendit.com/download/Q01IeW44TkxRWUt4dnc9PQ (4mb)
That is a PDF of some good simple knife fighting and defense techniques. A word of caution though, this was written 20 years ago so some of the things he mentions are a bit outdated. The martial arts stuff for example was before many of the more effective martial arts styles gained popularity in America.
The knife techniques are good and solid though.

 

[theken206]

its my name

 

[M203Sniper]

Smoky Mtn. Knife Works

The Ka-Bar TDI is IMHO the best defensive platform for a knife you can get. It was designed for an officer to carry behind his duty belt/on his pants belt for weak side carry. If someone tries to grab your weapon you can fend them off with this.

On-the-Street

So my objective would be "fire and maneuver" the relationship between space and time; get space between me and my attacker so I can

1. Re-engage effectively to stop the threat.

2. Retreat to diminish the threat.

3. Having stopped the threat - call for aid.

 

[theken206]

dont much like it myself but apples and oranges right?? ^

 

[JShirley]

Yeah, the TDI is another weapon designed so even those without training can use it intuitively. Cost effective, too.

The small version is even less obvious and expensive...

 

[The Tourist]

In a little over an hour, I will be sitting in a theater watching "The Dark Knight."

In a very real sense, this touches on all of our worst scenarios and our minimalist tendencies.

First, Wisconsin has no CCW provision. That means nothing to the bad guys. In a packed multi-plex showing the top movies, you know there's a perp with a gun in there somewhere.

I'll be with my wife and SIL. The things I might do in a saloon I might not attempt now. I may have to settle for serious defense instead of an offensive move I so dearly want to end the danger quickly. And even then--knowing letting an idiot attack--could I quickly herd the women into a necessary safer distance in a screaming crowd?

And lastly is 'myself' and my own admitted compromises. Do I really want to sit so +2 hours of coming attractions, features, egress and tight seating with a full sized Razel jammed smack into my thigh?

How would you like those conditions for "objectives"?

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Dark Knight?

Dude!

Just take your BatBelt . . . no, wait, you're the Tinker . . . damn . . . that would make it . . . the TinkerBelt.

Oh.

Uh.

Hmm.

Never mind.