"Knockdown Power"

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CptnAwesome

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Wanted your opinions on what some hunters refer to as "Knockdown power".

I have a good friend that's very partial to the 308 win. And rightfully so, it' an awesome round especially for whitetail. BUT... anytime I mention a caliber with a smaller bullet he's quick to say "308 got more knockdown power". I assume he believes this cuz it has a bigger bullet.

I stopped using the term a long while ago, I just refer to energy. From my thinking energy = knockdown power. I just can't see a 308 carryng 2684 ft lbs of energy packing more of a punch than a 270 Wby Mag carrying 3300 ft lbs of energy. Or even a 257 Wby carrying 2800 ft lbs of energy. Both smaller bullets (the 257 much smaller) but carrying more energy to release in the animal.

Seems simple to me but but I've been wrong once maybe twice before.

What do y'all think?
 
I cringe when I hear it.
Any bullet can kill. Any can injure. And ALL are useless if you miss.

I’d rather hit someone with a 22 than miss with a 50cal.

Likewise the gun you have is better than the one you don’t. And the one you practice with you’re likely to be more accurate with than one you avoid.

So IMHO there are too many factors to base things on “knockdown power”. So it’s best to figure out the factors, the. Get what works best for you!
 
Back in the 'Old Days' the Taylor Knockout Formula was invented to help predict effectiveness on Big Game. http://www.n4lcd.com/calc/ It IS effective...but is mostly momentum based with equal parts of weight and velocity playing their parts. But then came Roy Weatherby who believed that smaller and much higher velocity bullets could equal or surpass the old thumpers, and in some cases he was right. The hydrostatic shock that the higher velocity projectiles impart on the CNS can put large animals down as if they were struck by lightning....and belie their Taylor KO predictions.

But....and there's always a 'But'...huh?:) When penetration on large game is needed, I'd go with the Taylor formula of heavier and better SD to ensure adequate performance where the lighter bullet might fail. With careful shot placement the smaller calibers can absolutely work just fine....but the stress on the projectile is magnified and many will fail. The very latest solid copper bullets seem to violate the conventional wisdom and can hold together while penetrating deeply so perhaps the playing field has been altered a bit. As always...the definitive answer remains....'It Depends'.:)
 
Kinetic energy is a good number if you're going to pick just one number to describe a bullet's terminal potential but it still falls short of capturing all of the relevant data needed to really make a good determination of terminal performance.

Bullet construction is a big part. A good properly constructed 308 bullet at 2684 ft-lbs of energy will very likely out perform/penetrate and poorly constructed 270 bullet even at the higher 3300 ft-lbs of energy.

Likewise a 500gr 45 caliber bullet at 2800 ft-lbs of muzzle energy is going to perform very differently on a target than a 117gr 25 caliber bullet at the same initial kinetic energy.

Bullet weight, caliber, and velocity together tell a much better story lacking only bullet construction but I think construction plays a close second to the combination of the three aforementioned parameters. From weight and velocity I can calculate kinetic energy and momentum and with caliber and weight I get a rough idea of it' ballistic coefficient potential. There is no reason to look at just one number. The more data you have the more you can analyse the potentials
 
Personally, I would take the average of Momentum and Kinetic Energy when assessing two loads.

Momentum = Mass x Velocity

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 (Mass * Velocity * Velocity).

I read the KE off the ballistics chart. When comparing loads I use Momentum = (Mass in Gr. * Velocity) / 1000

So, for example:

a .22lr .40 gr. bullet moving at 1200 fps has a Kinetic Energy of 104 ft-lbs and a momentum of 48 for a 'Knockdown power' of 76

a .45 acp 230 gr. load at 835 fps has a KE of 356 ft-lbs and a momentum of 192 so we can say a 'Knockdown power' of 274

a 9mm 115 gr. load at 1180 fps has a KE of .355 ft -lbs and a momentum of 135.7 for a 'Knockdown power' of 245.35

a .50 S&W 400 gr. at 1800 fps has a KE of 2842 ft-lbs and a momentum of 720 for a 'Knockdown power' of 1781

a 5.56 55 gr. moving out at 3260 fps has a KE of 1297 ft-lbs and a momentum of 179.3 for a 'Knockdown power' of 738.15

a .308 150 gr. moving at 2820 fps has a KE of 2648 ft-lbs and a momentum of 423 for a 'knockdown power' of 1747.

a .50 BMG with a 700 gr. bullet moving at 2978 fps has a KE of 13,971 ft-lbs and a momentum of 2084.6 giving a 'Knockdown power' of 8027.8

Of course, this says nothing about shot placement, bullet construction, penetration, etc, etc, etc, ... just my idea of comparing the 'Knockdown power' of two loads.

You can see from this that momentum is very important in loads with little KE (pistols) while in rifles the KE dominates.
 
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Wow, great responses. Thanx fellas! Definitely gave me something to chew on and something for me and my buddy to talk about.
 
Kinetic energy is a good number if you're going to pick just one number to describe a bullet's terminal potential but it still falls short of capturing all of the relevant data needed to really make a good determination of terminal performance.

I think KE was picked because it was easier to sell new cartridges of a greater velocity because KE increased by the square the velocity, which makes a small velocity increase appear to be a huge improvement over a slower bullet of the same diameter. Momentum (ME) is conserved in a collision, KE is not, and Momentum being mass times velocity, it is a lot harder to increase momentum by a significant amount, without the shooter getting beat to heck.

Advertising in print magazines, has been worked, messaged, and evolved , since the American Civil War. The shooting community is not merely been shaped, but has been molded by the pseudo science put out by the Industry marketing departments who sponsor the articles we read. The idea that KE is a lethality measure, that you can calculate "stopping power", is one of the things that the shooting community has been taught to believe.

I believe that KE (and ME) are easy to calculate, therefore, easy to sell as a lethality measure. KE is more of a marketing number and gunwriters use the thing all the time to hype cartridges. All the cartridges we use are more or less bounded by the weight of the firearm, lets say a rifle. Ever carried a 12 lb or 15 lb rifle 1000 yards to the Viale pitts at Camp Perry? It ate up my shoulder. My target rifles have lots of lead weight in them, to cut the recoil, and I cannot imagine carrying them all day. The heaviest service rifles were around 8 to 9 pounds. I know Roy Dunlap claimed he almost died carrying a M1917 in basic. Also, the recoil momentum of 12 to 14 foot pounds used to be the estimated recoil limit for a Soldier. Now, with women in the service, the 223 cartridge is the max, with about 2 or 3 pounds http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm. I wonder what Sargent York would have said. Now, I have fired some 40 foot pound 45/70 loads and have fired two 458 Win Mag loads, which are around 62 foot pound, and I don't want any of the 62 foot pound recoil in a 9 pound rifle. It hurt! Shoot enough forty foot pound recoiling cartridges, and you will feel "like a duck stunned on the head". I have no idea what will happen to a person who shoots 50 plus full power 458 Win Magnum loads. Will they develop CTE?

Therefore, firearms corporations have a very difficult time developing a new round around an increase in momentum. Shooters would get knocked silly. But, if you sell KE as a quality and lethality measure, there is a lot more room for playing around before the shooter develops concussion from the recoil.

Martin Fackler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fackler and other lethality testers came to the conclusion that KE was not a measure of lethality. You can read Fackler's papers, he nicely dismisses the knock down theories of in print gunwriters, saying in one article, they are nothing but advertising. If you read enough in print articles, especially from the past, you can tell they are physically incoherent. A simplified Fackler statement would be, if it lives and breathes, if you make it bleed enough, it will stop breathing. Fackler's papers are very positive about big through holes. But casting ballistic gelatin is work, and measuring the volume of the hole, and the depth of the hole, that is work. So, what we will continue to read in the popular press, is KE. Easy to calculate. Anyone remember the tables where a certain amount of KE was required to kill certain animals? Anyone remember the rules of thumb that a certain amount of KE was required to kill a deer, but more KE was required for a Moose? That was psuedo science.

Something else, where is the research into lethality that Industry funded? I don't think Industry funds research, and they don't need to. All they have to do is commission some in print gunwriter to write an article, (about $400) give the guy some psuedo science talking points, and they make profits. What I have noticed, was that the real lethality research was funded by the Navy. Martin Fackler was a Navy Doctor. Gun writers are guys who get $400 for an article, they go out into the garage, or the Hardware Store, buy what is available, and what I have read for decades, is that deer (or humans), are "like" wet newspaper, clay, wood, wood dowels, phone books, duxseal, milk jugs full of water, etc, etc. In print gunwriters have never really run calibrated tests against everything. Their calibration point is that they shot an animal, and the bullet performed similar to bullets shot in whatever was in their garage, or on the shelf of a hardware store. I just remembered, they used to compare divots in steel plates. People, animals, are like steel plates.

Knock down power, read enough accounts of Soldiers in combat, guys who had to be told, they were missing their feet. Knock down power is one of those created for advertising terms. Knock down power from small arms is the person's or animal's reaction to pain if the central nervous system is not turned off. You know, Hornets have incredible knock down power: get bite by one. You will jump and kick like a jackass. You will run as fast as you can, and flap your arms like a bird, trying to get away. You might roll around on the ground. Did anyone measure the KE of a Hornet sting?
 
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Wow wall of text. Take a step back. When a bullet arrives at the target the only thing it has is mass and velocity (linear and angular). The only work the bullet can do to the target is limited by its kinetic energy (1/2 m v^2) since it brings no other energy source with it (assuming we are not lobbing HE or HEAT rounds) that is a simple fundamental of physics. What that work looks like or turns into (damaged materials target or bullet, heat, noise and imparted velocity) can vary a lot depending on bullet's construction and but the total work done is limited by it's kinetic energy when it hits the target. Kinetic Energy is a good number, it is grounded in physics and with a bit more information (mostly bullet parameters, mass, caliber, construction) can tell a pretty complete story of the terminal potential of the bullet.
 
All other things considered, knockdown power is determined by the nut behind the trigger. If you can't put a bullet in the right place, it doesn't matter.
 
"Knockdown power", IMO is a bit of a misnomer. Bullets don't literally "knock over" anything. Maybe it should be called "fall down"
power. When the animal is hit with either hydroshock force, which turns essential internal organs to jelly, or a vital organ is destroyed,
the animal either dies quickly, or blacks out, and falls down. I hit a 25 pound Coyote with a 180 grain 30.06 soft tip. He dropped
in his tracks, but it didn't push him backward, in the least. The shock was simply too much for his system, and he dropped like a sack of
potatoes.
 
Taylor KO doesn't really resonate with me. And kinetic energy certainly is not a good measure, either. Being struck by a large truck moving at a few feet per second is a much different experience than being struck by a small projectile moving a few thousand feet per second.

When a bullet impacts, the force it exerts on the tissue ahead of it is the rate at which it is shedding momentum. If that force, divided by the frontal area of the bullet (pressure) is greater than the bearing strength of the tissue, the bullet will continue to penetrate. If it is less, the bullet will come to rest.

If the permanent wound channel crosses paths with significant blood vessels, the animal will bleed out and die.

So the game is getting a long wound channel with sufficient diameter in a vital area . To do that, you need a bullet that impacts at a speed that is high enough to expand the bullet, but not enough to tear it apart. For many cup and core bullets, the magic window is 2100 to 2800 FPS . Many premium bullets will open at 1700, and some will hang together at warp 9.8.

Right bullet in the right place at the right speed is the ticket .
 
Hydrostatic shock is the real knock down power in a bullet. I generally assume that’s what people mean.
A lot of it is a bullets cross section, momentum and KE but bullet design is very big as well in how well all the other factors play in as well.
A big issue I see when people have the .45 vs 9mm vs .40 vs 5 inch barrel vs 3 inch barrel debate.
 
I carried, and used both a AR 15 and a M14 during my years in Vietnam. A .223 is a 'sometimes stopper.' A 308 is a 'AYWAYS stopper.'
 
knock down power............Try the .600 Nitro Express. 900 grain bullet. Yes, you can shoot White tail with it.

See if your buddy wants to go head to head with his 308.
 
KP seems like an antiquated topic from deer camp discussion during the ‘60’s or break room wisdom at work (it may be just a poor description of a bullet hitting a game animal). I am not sure of the mathematics involved; my perspective comes from .308 field experience when deer hunting, The deer I have taken with a .308 look to be sustanually messed up with more than enough horsepower (150 grain penetrates the animal like they are not even there) so that is my very uncalculated and layman’s experience. I would think that many, many other calibers will do exactly the same thing. In turn, I have never witnessed a deer being “knocked down” (in my mind meaning taken off it’s feet with a large amount of energy) - I just see a massive amount of evergy being concentrated in an area that disrupts function - the animal then dies from the disruption - you can then witness all the math at work. Good shooting.
 


Skip to 4:00 to get to the point


This video is full of crap. The bullet went though the eye sockets. There was a bunch of threads on this video on several forums back when if first came out. There is no way a near miss from a 50 BMG is fatal. To support that point and refute your video above I will submit the following video:

 
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Skip to 4:00 to get to the point

Man.....some people get all worked up over the 'awesome power' of the BMG. Out of that 20" tube....the 750 A-Max was probably not going much over 2200 fps and wouldn't expand going through the eye sockets. The first deer skull I found online had a passage between the sockets...perhaps for a nerve that I think it could have gone through. But then, I found other skull pics where this hole wasn't there, so I'm confused. Could a needle point push through the bone and not be obvious on a fresh skull? I can see why Keith is confused and so am I but without being able to closely examine the skull it's now impossible to make a call. Could it have been he was expecting to see explosive deformation and could have missed a far tinier wound? Got to love internal ballistics.....the only sure thing is that there is NO sure thing.:)
 
The only thing that will flatten a large animal right where it stands without a CNS hit is a large amount of hydro-static shock.

This is generally achieved with a decent sized bullet moving REALLY fast, and the bigger an animal is, the more it takes. You see it a lot with rounds like 300 Win mag or some of the Weatherby stuff in hunting videos where there take a buck at 200 yards with a broadside shot and the thing never goes on a death run.

Big slower moving rounds like 45-70 or a shotgun slugs won't do it generally.
 
This video is full of crap. The bullet went though the eye sockets. There was a bunch of threads on this video on several forums back when if first came out. There is no way a near miss from a 50 BMG is fatal. To support that point and refute your video above I will submit the following video:


I'm thinking it grazed it. You can sorta see fur in the air in the sow motion shot.

You would think that a 50 BMG through the eye sockets would sorta blow the thing's head up like a grapefruit. You never now though. I've seen a pig shot through the eye sockets with a 7.62x39 FMJ bullet, and it was pretty gory. the exit side looked like someone carved the things eye out with a spoon, and there was tissue coming out of the the snout.
 
Discussing the efficacy of a round and marksmanship is legit. However, let's skip anyone trying to propose that our rifle and pistol ammo can physically knock over a person or a large animal by sheer energy. It is the effect of the round on the various systems that maintain the target that might cause the target to fall over. This has been discussed endlessly.
 
The only thing that will flatten a large animal right where it stands without a CNS hit is a large amount of hydro-static shock.

This is generally achieved with a decent sized bullet moving REALLY fast, and the bigger an animal is, the more it takes. You see it a lot with rounds like 300 Win mag or some of the Weatherby stuff in hunting videos where there take a buck at 200 yards with a broadside shot and the thing never goes on a death run.

Big slower moving rounds like 45-70 or a shotgun slugs won't do it generally.

Sure just about any round slow or fast will "flatten" and animal if they get a CNS hit. I hit a doe in 2016 in the spine with a handgun (10mm 200gr XTP @ 1250fps) and she fell right in her tracts and never moved. The first deer I ever killed was a small button buck I shot in the jaw and neck with a facing towards shot with a 12 gauge 3-inch Rem Slugger. The button buck fell over backward and never moved.

The problem with talking about terminal ballistics on critters (or humans for that matter) is that there is no hard fast way to say what will produce a lethal wound and what will not without being very precise about bullet placement and what it hits. Hit the CNS is almost always a stopper but not always fatal. I hit a deer this year with a grazing high shoulder spine hit. Put him flat on the ground right in his tracks, laying there "dead" for about 30 seconds before he started to move again. On seeing that he was not dead I started reloading and before I got my muzzle loader reloaded he manage to recover and run off, never to be recovered. Saw him weeks later in the cameras.

Miss the CNS and suddenly the variables are wide open. A grazing neck shot that hits a major artery has the deer bleed out in less than a minute. A high gut shot that manages to miss a major artery or vein does not kill the deer for days or even weeks when infection sets it and in rare cases the deer survives. Two identical shots on similar critters with the same weapon and one drops in its tracks and the other one runs 200 yards before expiring. There have been studies that have indicated that the state of the heart muscle (contracting or relaxing) can effect the lethality of a chest hit. There are simply too many variable to capture the "lethality" of a round succinctly by simply talking about Kinetic Energy, Momentum, caliber and bullet construction. Even if we talk about bullet placement there are too many variable we cannot know in the target, organ/artery location, adrenaline level, will-to-live, etc...

If we are talking about perforating homogeneous steel armor then it become easy. Kinetic Energy will be directly proportional to the thickness of armor a particular weight and caliber AP projectile can perforated. Lethality on living critters is never that simple...

I'm thinking it grazed it. You can sorta see fur in the air in the sow motion shot.

You would think that a 50 BMG through the eye sockets would sorta blow the thing's head up like a grapefruit. You never now though. I've seen a pig shot through the eye sockets with a 7.62x39 FMJ bullet, and it was pretty gory. the exit side looked like someone carved the things eye out with a spoon, and there was tissue coming out of the the snout.

I would put money on eye sockets. From looking at the eyes in the after shot closeups they look completely deflated as if there was little of the eyeball left in them. He was shooting an A-max bullet. This is a target bullet not a hunting bullet it has a very heavy jacket to make it dimensional stable and consistent to make for very repeatable ballistics. It has rather poor terminal ballistics and I would not expect it to expand on the thin bones between deer eye sockets. I would love to see that skull after it was de-fleshed. It sure would settle a lot of internet arguments I have seen on that video.

-totally rambling
 
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