7.62X25 vs. 9mm, ball ammo stopping power
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rcmodel
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And that's exactly how the 7.62x25 pistol came to be.
Getting hosed with a sub machine gun is a ''stopper'
Getting shot with a .30 caliber pistol proved to be less then reliable in 1900 in the .30 Luger, and .30 Mauser.
The 9mm replaced them 8 years later in military service.
The Russians where quick to copy it between the wars for use in SMG's they could quickly produce & make feed reliably.
The Tokarov pistol was an afterthought to use common ammo.
But it didn't last long in real military service.
On the other-hand, most of the worlds army's are using the 9mm handgun now in one flavor or another.
So, you figure out which one has proven to be more effective.
Rc
Getting hosed with a sub machine gun is a ''stopper'
Getting shot with a .30 caliber pistol proved to be less then reliable in 1900 in the .30 Luger, and .30 Mauser.
The 9mm replaced them 8 years later in military service.
The Russians where quick to copy it between the wars for use in SMG's they could quickly produce & make feed reliably.
The Tokarov pistol was an afterthought to use common ammo.
But it didn't last long in real military service.
On the other-hand, most of the worlds army's are using the 9mm handgun now in one flavor or another.
So, you figure out which one has proven to be more effective.
Rc
Shadow 7D
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Um, it STILL IS
Jim Watson
Member
It only took 4 years for the (German) Navy to catch on.
Before the flyboys took over, the navies of the world were the technological leaders of the military. They had to be. A capital ship was a huge investment and if it were not up to date, it would be a sunk investment. So to speak.
leadcounsel
member
Nonsense.
Surely a .50 BMG has more stopping ability than a .22LR, all things constant. So then it's just a matter of degrees.
The 762x25 is remarkably more powerful. Box O Truth shows that among handgun rounds it was the only one able to penetrate a kevlar helmet. Pretty impressive.
Not sure why you continue to argue shot placement. Nobody here is contesting that. But surely if shot placement is the same, some bullets are better or worse than others. That's the OPs question, not a debate on the importance of shot placement.
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JeeperCreeper
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Yep, all things equal, in FMJ I'd take the 7.62x25 Tok
Now, if I can pick my favorite modern 9mm vs the best 7.62 Tok I can find, I think 9mm will take the cake (for me). But that's for a different thread....
Nom de Forum
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The Tokarev pistol was not "an afterthought". It was developed by the Russians several years before they created the first of their 7.62x25 SMGs (PPD) and the more famous PPSh and PPS. The Tokarev is a great pistol and with best quality ammunition it has many advantages over 9mmP, some of which have been mentioned in this thread. I suspect the adoption of the 9mmMak cartridge was more about having a smaller, DA, easier and safer to carry pistol than adopting a more effective pistol. I believe the full potential of the 7.62x25 cartridge is still awaiting discovery.
Nom de Forum
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"I can find" is the distinct advantage that would disappear if better loads for the 7.62 were available.
Voodoochile
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Now given that the criteria was 7.62X25mm or 9X19mm ball then with the stress of combat I would say the 9mm would have the better chance of a stop just by the small margin of the larger size projectile causing the damage necessary to stop a soldier & you continue down the street.
Tis why I personally prefer the .45ACP in Ball form because granted when comparing all your common defensive sidearm rounds they all tend to have close to the same penetration & effectiveness but when you consider the larger diameter projectile & a combat situation where shot placement may not be optimal the larger round may just do enough to stop the threat even if it is by a very small margin.
Tis why I personally prefer the .45ACP in Ball form because granted when comparing all your common defensive sidearm rounds they all tend to have close to the same penetration & effectiveness but when you consider the larger diameter projectile & a combat situation where shot placement may not be optimal the larger round may just do enough to stop the threat even if it is by a very small margin.
Surculus
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Or else the Russians realized that pistols were largely badges of rank for officers and played a very small part in the aggressor's combat role [their focus at the time: don't forget, that stinker Stalin was still in charge, & generals who retreated tended to suddenly come down with fatal illnesses.
]Like this?
Between these 2 with FMJ there will be a very minor difference. One will make a .308" dia. hole likely clean through and the other will make a .355" dia. hole, likely clean through.
That's in theory, in practice, due to tissue elasticity and the round bullet profile, each permanent cavity will be less than the nominal dia. of the bullet, but the 9mm does have that slightly under 5 hundredths of an inch edge in permanent crush cavity potential. Real-world, I doubt it would matter.
Start talking JHPs and the edge would go to 9mm with the best HPs available no contest.
That's in theory, in practice, due to tissue elasticity and the round bullet profile, each permanent cavity will be less than the nominal dia. of the bullet, but the 9mm does have that slightly under 5 hundredths of an inch edge in permanent crush cavity potential. Real-world, I doubt it would matter.
Start talking JHPs and the edge would go to 9mm with the best HPs available no contest.
dancitizen
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I have seen multiple examples of people shot with both calibers. Typically ball ammo, since that is what is by far the most common. (former Yugoslavia)
Wound channels were largely identical, meaning a finger/thumb sized hole.
Here are my observations:
The majority of wounds were through and through, 7.62x25 always exited, 9mm occasionally did not, especially if encountering a skull or spine, but sometimes it just seemed to run out of energy in flesh.
7.62x25 dealt with heavy winter clothing and worn gear (webbing belts, magazines, pouches) better, seeming to ignore it.
7.62x25 FMJ with a lead core often mushrooms quite well, recovered projectiles measured about a centimeter. The steel cored stuff is longer and occasionally tumbles (keyhole exit wounds)
All handgun rounds are weak, in FMJ they produce a hole through the target. 7.62x25 is more reliable at putting the hole all the way through, especially if they are not nude.
Wound channels were largely identical, meaning a finger/thumb sized hole.
Here are my observations:
The majority of wounds were through and through, 7.62x25 always exited, 9mm occasionally did not, especially if encountering a skull or spine, but sometimes it just seemed to run out of energy in flesh.
7.62x25 dealt with heavy winter clothing and worn gear (webbing belts, magazines, pouches) better, seeming to ignore it.
7.62x25 FMJ with a lead core often mushrooms quite well, recovered projectiles measured about a centimeter. The steel cored stuff is longer and occasionally tumbles (keyhole exit wounds)
All handgun rounds are weak, in FMJ they produce a hole through the target. 7.62x25 is more reliable at putting the hole all the way through, especially if they are not nude.
Plan2Live
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Why? Are you considering carrying 7.62x25?
tark
Member
Dancitizen, I see you are new to the forum. Welcome to the monkey house.
I prefer the 9MM for one simple reason. There is less chance of the bullet exiting the body. In a self defense situation in a crowded mall, this is vitally important, for obvious reasons. I don't see many hollow point loads out there for the Tokarev round and ball ammo it totally unsuitable for civilian self defense situations. 9mm is everywhere, with many proven bullet designs available.
Having said that, I am not forced to choose between those two, that is why I would carry a .45.
I prefer the 9MM for one simple reason. There is less chance of the bullet exiting the body. In a self defense situation in a crowded mall, this is vitally important, for obvious reasons. I don't see many hollow point loads out there for the Tokarev round and ball ammo it totally unsuitable for civilian self defense situations. 9mm is everywhere, with many proven bullet designs available.
Having said that, I am not forced to choose between those two, that is why I would carry a .45.
dancitizen
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I agree 100%
Touching off a round with a well deserved reputation for over penetration in a mall, apartment, house, urban street, is such a risky thing.
In areas where the available choices are 7.62x25, 9x19, 9x18, 9x17, 7.65 acp then it edges up a little in practicality. But given the option of .45 acp? There is no choice, the .45 is just the better round for PD.
I love the 7.62x25, it has a lot of versatility, especially as a ranch gun.
Touching off a round with a well deserved reputation for over penetration in a mall, apartment, house, urban street, is such a risky thing.
In areas where the available choices are 7.62x25, 9x19, 9x18, 9x17, 7.65 acp then it edges up a little in practicality. But given the option of .45 acp? There is no choice, the .45 is just the better round for PD.
I love the 7.62x25, it has a lot of versatility, especially as a ranch gun.
dancitizen
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"But it didn't last long in real military service."
53 countries have formally used the TT pistol. It was used by both both axis and allied powers in WWII and many, many wars since.
The USA alone has fought 4 wars where the opponent fielded the TT
It is currently in use in at least 4 wars.
As a matter of fact, It is likely the most common military sidearm ever produced.
53 countries have formally used the TT pistol. It was used by both both axis and allied powers in WWII and many, many wars since.
The USA alone has fought 4 wars where the opponent fielded the TT
It is currently in use in at least 4 wars.
As a matter of fact, It is likely the most common military sidearm ever produced.
Shot placement is always king!
Example.....
In November 1992, South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates shot an attacker four times in the torso with his 4 inch Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His attacker, an obese adult male who weighed almost 300 pounds, absorbed the hits and shortly thereafter returned fire with one shot from a single-action North American Arms .22 caliber mini-revolver. Coates was fatally wounded when the tiny bullet perforated his left upper arm and penetrated his chest through the armhole of his vest where the bullet cut a major artery. Coates, who was standing next to the passenger-side front fender of the assailant's car when he was hit by the fatal bullet, was very quickly incapacitated.
The slaying was recorded by the video camera mounted in Coates' cruiser. For our law enforcement readers, a copy of the video was obtained by Calibre Press a few months after the shooting, and is shown at their Street Survival seminar. Frames from the video are published on page 238 of the Calibre Press book, Tactics for Criminal Patrol. (The Coates shooting is also presented in detail on pages 239-240.)
After Coates was hit, he immediately ran several feet, scrambling around the front of the assailant's car while simultaneously radioing dispatch that he'd been shot. As he neared the driver's-side front fender he suddenly collapsed onto the pavement.
Trooper Coates fired four 145 grain Winchester Silvertip .357 Magnum bullets directly into his assailant's heavy abdomen, achieving solid hits with each. These particular bullets penetrate deeper than 125 grain JHPs, however none ruptured any vital cardiovascular structures. During the initial ground struggle, Coates was shot twice, but his vest protected him. After fighting off his attacker, Coates quickly climbed to his feet and emptied his revolver. At that particular moment the assailant was still lying on the ground. The combination of the assailant's obesity and the unusual angle at which the bullets entered his body worked to the disadvantage of Trooper Coates.
The Coates shooting exemplifies the fable of energy transfer, especially when encountering a determined attacker. The .357 Magnum cartridge is regarded by many as the ultimate manstopper; a true one-shot stop wonder. The Winchester 145 grain .357 Magnum cartridge is given a one-shot stopping power rating of 86 percent by Marshall and Sanow. According to this rating system, a single hit ANYWHERE in the torso is supposed to be highly effective in stopping an attacker, regardless of whether or not the bullet destroys vital tissue. But on this night, it failed FOUR TIMES! The assailant easily absorbed four bullets in his body, each delivering over 450 foot pounds of kinetic energy. This is equivalent to being hit four times by a baseball going approximately 210 miles per hour.
None of Coates' powerful .357 Magnum bullets were effective, but the bad guy's weak .22 caliber bullet was. The .357 Magnum bullets dumped all their energy into the attacker, whereas the single .22 caliber bullet disrupted vital tissue. The assailant survived the shooting, was convicted of murdering Coates and was sentenced to life in prison.
Example.....
In November 1992, South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates shot an attacker four times in the torso with his 4 inch Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His attacker, an obese adult male who weighed almost 300 pounds, absorbed the hits and shortly thereafter returned fire with one shot from a single-action North American Arms .22 caliber mini-revolver. Coates was fatally wounded when the tiny bullet perforated his left upper arm and penetrated his chest through the armhole of his vest where the bullet cut a major artery. Coates, who was standing next to the passenger-side front fender of the assailant's car when he was hit by the fatal bullet, was very quickly incapacitated.
The slaying was recorded by the video camera mounted in Coates' cruiser. For our law enforcement readers, a copy of the video was obtained by Calibre Press a few months after the shooting, and is shown at their Street Survival seminar. Frames from the video are published on page 238 of the Calibre Press book, Tactics for Criminal Patrol. (The Coates shooting is also presented in detail on pages 239-240.)
After Coates was hit, he immediately ran several feet, scrambling around the front of the assailant's car while simultaneously radioing dispatch that he'd been shot. As he neared the driver's-side front fender he suddenly collapsed onto the pavement.
Trooper Coates fired four 145 grain Winchester Silvertip .357 Magnum bullets directly into his assailant's heavy abdomen, achieving solid hits with each. These particular bullets penetrate deeper than 125 grain JHPs, however none ruptured any vital cardiovascular structures. During the initial ground struggle, Coates was shot twice, but his vest protected him. After fighting off his attacker, Coates quickly climbed to his feet and emptied his revolver. At that particular moment the assailant was still lying on the ground. The combination of the assailant's obesity and the unusual angle at which the bullets entered his body worked to the disadvantage of Trooper Coates.
The Coates shooting exemplifies the fable of energy transfer, especially when encountering a determined attacker. The .357 Magnum cartridge is regarded by many as the ultimate manstopper; a true one-shot stop wonder. The Winchester 145 grain .357 Magnum cartridge is given a one-shot stopping power rating of 86 percent by Marshall and Sanow. According to this rating system, a single hit ANYWHERE in the torso is supposed to be highly effective in stopping an attacker, regardless of whether or not the bullet destroys vital tissue. But on this night, it failed FOUR TIMES! The assailant easily absorbed four bullets in his body, each delivering over 450 foot pounds of kinetic energy. This is equivalent to being hit four times by a baseball going approximately 210 miles per hour.
None of Coates' powerful .357 Magnum bullets were effective, but the bad guy's weak .22 caliber bullet was. The .357 Magnum bullets dumped all their energy into the attacker, whereas the single .22 caliber bullet disrupted vital tissue. The assailant survived the shooting, was convicted of murdering Coates and was sentenced to life in prison.
tark
Member
What is this I keep hearing about "weak" 7.62 factory loads? The 7.62 X25 round is currently being loaded hotter (meaning to higher velocities) than it ever was 75 years ago. Look at any old "Cartridges of the World" book and you will see the Tok round was loaded to 1390 FPS out of a pistol barrel. Today, it is being loaded to over 1600. Winchester white box is right at 1645. It is not loaded to higher pressure, the increase is due to advances in powder technology.
Whatever else today's 7.62X25 ammo is; it isn't weak.
Whatever else today's 7.62X25 ammo is; it isn't weak.
Wait. Didn't you say that it was all about shot placement? So why are pistols a compromise? Are you saying a rifle has more stopping power than a pistol? What if it's a .22 rifle? You can't have it both ways friend. Bullets and power do matter. I've seen lots of pistols that shoot 7.62 x 39. Compared to a pistol shooting .22 shorts it's is NOT all about shot placement. I've seen a 7.62 x 39 rip half a dog's head right off. I'm pretty sure a .22 short wouldn't do that. Shot placement does matter. That dog actually lived for hours unitl it was shot again with, you guessed it, a .22. Most gruesome thing I've ever seen. I still get the heebie jeebies over it.
But if that 7.62 x 39 had hit a human in the chest I'm pretty sure it would have more chance of killing that person than if that person got shot with a .22 short in the chest. Sure there's a big difference between those rounds. But how much difference is enough to negate that whole thing about shot placement?
Having owned a 7.62 x 25 pistol and a 9mm pistol I can say without flinching that the 7.62 x 25 was considerably more powerful than a 9mm. At some level that could matter. If I was choosing a carry pistol I would take a 9mm every time though. Modern bullet technolgy has made that round much more lethal. So you don't have to be quite as good of a shooter as you had to be 25 years ago. Your 9mm bullet will spread out causing more damage than a 7.62 x 25 bullet. That's just true. And that does matter. It could mean the difference between nicking the aorta and a through and through round that didn't hit a single thing that was vital.
Not only that but I defy anyone to prove that it's possible to hit a major artery consistently in a gun battle. Shooting the heart is going to be pretty tough too with a handgun. And even hitting the lungs is not guaranteed when your target is moving and you are trying to do something that goes against human nature (shoot another human - most of us struggle with that thank goodness). I refer you to that video showing the man trying to shoot his lawyer at point blank range. Sure he hit him several times but he also missed him several times. Unless he was aiming for a bug on the ground his shot placement was terrible even at arm's length distance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9zy37-_0LU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
BTW the lawyer walked away despite being shot several times with a .22. Don't tell me there's no such thing as stopping power. He got hit several times including once in the neck. Given what I saw happened to that dog that shot to the neck may have taken that lawyer's head completely off. I'm pretty sure that would fall under the (be)heading of a one shot stop. Shooting any living creature is a gruesome thing and it certainly does matter whether you do it with a .22 short or a 7.62 x 39 both of which are available in guns that we call pistols. Here's a photo of a Yugo Zastava PAP M92PV which fires a 7.62 x 39 round. And it's a pistol by legal definitions. I see these in pretty much every gun shop I go in. They are popular and available.
BTW if a 7.62 x 39 pistol doesn't impress you (I posted about it because I've seen so many of them lately) maybe a S&W .500 S&W Magnum round will. Do you really think there's no difference between that round and a .22? Placement is NOT everything.
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dancitizen
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While it's true that there are only a couple JHP loadings for 7.62x25 but the ones that are available (wolf & PPU) perform very well and are pretty cheap.
It's also good to keep in mind that some of the standard lead core fodder mushrooms pretty well, consistently expanding to about a centimeter in gel.
It's also good to keep in mind that some of the standard lead core fodder mushrooms pretty well, consistently expanding to about a centimeter in gel.
481
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I cannot imagine that there is a whole lotta difference between a .309" and a .355" round nose bullet zipping through a body. Both will pass through soft tissue with little disruption and I doubt that even a doctor could discern the difference between the wounds.
barnbwt
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Thank you. Part of the equation that doesn't seem to get noticed by many, is that even though the 9mm is heavier, if a smaller bullet gets you a higher velocity, it becomes much easier to make a bullet expand/deform reliably. We're always hearing about how clothing can fill up hollow points and how sometimes they won't expand; that deformation comes about directly from a rapid change in velocity, which Tok simply has more of.
Which is why a simple lead-core 9mm FMJ doesn't tend to expand much (and 45acp even less) while you say the x25 get's about a 50% increase. Granted, it's not much in the grand scheme of things, 10mm vs. 7.62mm, but it's not like expansion was a design criteria for any FMJ round. I think tricks like air pockets or aluminum cores used in modern high-velocity deforming rounds would bring Tokarev up to essentially equal with 9mm (and I suspect it'd be a lot nastier than 45acp near the front of its wound channel, even if penetration is ultimately less)
How about this question; is there any reason 7.62x25 shouldn't be competing with 9mm? If 9mm and 45acp aren't discernibly different in terms of effectiveness/stoppability/etc., then 7.62x25 for darn sure won't stand out. But if it rivals either of those, that suggests the round should be getting a hell of a lot more play in the market than it does. No love.
TCB
dancitizen
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Another benefit of the 7.62x25 is that it's long projectile can be made to tumble by playing with center of gravity.
I have thought about the potential for swaging a round with a polymer ball in the nose of a FMJ to create drastic tumbling.
The round has also been loaded with very light .22 caliber rounds in a sabot, 40-55 grains traveling north of 2,000 fps out of a pistol.
I seen loadings with very light .30 rounds going over 2,100 fps (magsafe as an example)
I have thought about the potential for swaging a round with a polymer ball in the nose of a FMJ to create drastic tumbling.
The round has also been loaded with very light .22 caliber rounds in a sabot, 40-55 grains traveling north of 2,000 fps out of a pistol.
I seen loadings with very light .30 rounds going over 2,100 fps (magsafe as an example)
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