Laser or not?

[MikePaiN]

I picked up a new Sig P290 yesterday, it came packaged with a red-dot laser. The unit is proprietary and mounts under the barrel and is activated by tapping a button on the side.
What do you all think about using a laser on your EDC? I'm undecided on if I want to use it. I really wanted night sights which was a big selling point for me on this pistol, but since it came with the laser ...hmm....

 

[M2 Carbine]

For some years I have experimented and practiced with (good) gun mounted lasers and laser/lights. I shoot with lasers, in low light, two or three times a week (home range). I believe I pretty much know the strong points and weak points of gun mounted lasers.
Bottom line. All of my defense guns, handguns, rifles and shotguns are equipped with lasers or laser/lights if available.

I'm undecided on if I want to use it.

Learn to use the laser PROPERLY and I believe you will see you are faster and far more accurate than when using any other sighting system in low light.
PROPERLY being the key word.


Put it this way, if you can do this in low light without a gun mounted laser, you don't need a laser on your gun.

 

[nyc71]

I mounted a CTC on my LCP & it greatly improves your ability to hit your target regardless of your situation.


"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"- Benjamin Franklin

 

[Sam1911]

I posted this once before and it represents my opinion on using the laser as a primary sighting aid:

Lasers can teach you things about your technique if you know how to evaluate what you're seeing, but their use as a primary sighting tool is largely fundamentally at odds with good handgunning practices in that they teach you, encourage you, (some would say force you) to look over your sights to find that red dot on the target, which is exactly the opposite of how you should be sighting a handgun. Remember, front sight, front sight, front sight! Your focus isn't supposed to be on the target, and certainly not peering past your sights to find a glowing dot on it somewhere.

A trainer of my acquaintance recently told me of some very long-term experiments he had performed with shooters of various skill levels to try and see what an equally-trained person was able to accomplish with lasers vs. iron sights. The results were disappointing as the shooters, when tested under "defensive shooting" conditions, universally shot with less speed and accuracy with the lasers, regardless of training or developed proficiency, or experience with the device. The natural instinctive coordination between the eye to the front sight and the target beyond is broken and the shooter doesn't make the shot based on the data his/her brain is best able to process. That leap of faith that lets us get that front sight centered on target and take a shot in under a second and then reacquire and shoot another aimed shot in less than 0.2 sec. is removed and instead the shooter is looking for the reassurance of the red ball which is out there, somewhere, bouncing around like a kite in the wind.

In essence, it's too much information. Instead of instinctively processing just how much precision you NEED to make the shot, your brain is forced to contend with this exceedingly specific aiming point which is flickering all over the place, in and out of view, and which every shot sends jumping off the target. It's somewhat akin to taking a running shot at a deer at 20 yards with your variable scope set on 16x -- you spend more time fighting the sighting device than tracking and shooting.

There are instances where a laser sight may be a useful alternative, but it's best to think of it that way and not get hung up in using it for primary sighting duties where it's really a millstone around your neck.

Having said ALL of that, a laser used in very low-light instances where you just can't see your sights might be one of those reasonable uses. That carries with it a lot of other questions -- "Can you see well enough to identify your target?" for example, or, "If it is so dark you can't make out the sights on the gun at all, why are you shooting so far that you need to use a precise aiming system anyway?" -- but there are infinite possibilities so I never say never.

I've done a fair bit of "practical" shooting training, drill, and competition in low- or no-light situations, with a light and without. In general I find that if I have enough light to see to move around, then I have enough light to pick up the silhouette of the gun against the target and make accurate enough shots at realistic "combat" distances. If I don't have enough light to see to move, or I'm looking into a space darker than where I'm standing, I'd be using a white light anyway, and so can pick up the gun and target through the light scatter of the handheld light. I've yet to run into a situation in those drills where a laser would have made me faster, or a whole lot more precise.

I don't know if any of that helps answer your original question, but if I was in your position I think I'd be asking, considering that 99% of the time the laser is the less optimal sighting system, and I haven't really identified what those 1% instances might be, do I want that device hanging off my EDC all the time, and will I know how to use it, and when I should switch to using it when that moment arises?

 

[Kleanbore]

The laser is a very valuable tool for dry fire practice.

 

[cwp3420]

I used to look upon lasers as a gimmick on pistols, as I figured I had night sights. However, as I have gotten older (north of sixty, but not too much) I have found a Crmison Trace laserguard on my HK45CT has been a godsend. I still use night sights, but I have found I cannot see the sights as well as I did at 25. The sights, even in daylight, require me to wear shooting glasses now to see the front sight well. At night, the sight is blurry without my shooting glasses. The laser, though, really gives me more confidence in where the bullet will hit.

I don't rely on it completely, and try to still use my night sights. Before I retired from federal law enforcement, we also used to practice shooting at close range holding your pistol against your chest so someone cannot pull it from your grip, like they could if you're in a Weaver type stance. I have found the laser really helps in that regard.

The CT laser I use on the HK looks similar to the one you have on your Sig, with the exception that the CT laser has an activation button on the grip of the pistol under the middle finger. I think before you take the laser off you should try doing some shooting drills in low light to see how you like the laser. If it helps, leave it on. If you find it just gets in the way, take it off. You're sort of in a win/win situation with it.

 

[RX-178]

A laser for the EDC gun?

The biggest issue you're going to have is whether or not your holster can fit a handgun with a laser on it.

Other than that, everyone else has pretty much covered it.

 

[Safetychain]

My concern has always been what Sam1911 stated above about reliance on a laser being detrimental to the natural hand-eye coordination. My carry is usually a very small frame pistol and I practice point and shoot with very good results from the start (I believe this is due to growing up shooting a spear-gun a lot). I am proficient using the sites and having the time would use them, though I firmly believe that most self defense situations would not allow time to sight shoot.

I used to have an amazing sense of direction. If I had ever driven to any place once, I could always get back and go again even years later. I always knew instinctively where north was. Ever since getting a GPS, I now have to rely on the GPS. I think the laser may be very good in acquiring a quick target, but it would also reduce the ability to use the subconscious cues that the brain picks up and would reduce the ability to point and shoot should the laser not be working, can't see it in very bright light, or in using another gun without a laser. You would simply start relying on the laser to do what the brain used to do automatically.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The laser is a very valuable tool for dry fire practice.

This has been my experience too. The laser is very limited in usefulness in real world defensive use and there are real world downsides for a newer shooter

 

[BillH]

P290 Laser or not to Laser

I have the P290 with NS & laser (1st time to use a laser) and find it's a "nice" addition and resale point, but not useable for me. I have enough to do keeping my eye on the front sight with out trying to follow a red dancing dot.

 

[Lonestar49]

They are a great tool that can lead to even more -

...

They're great for range practice, point and shoot, both eyes open, and then verify POA with laser..

They're also good for using as a HD type night stand gun w/laser, again, allowing you to keep both eyes open giving you more SA (situational awareness) IF you find the need to activate it on a BG..

There is no substitute for aiming/accuracy via iron sights as a primary but, as mentioned, if you have that down then using the laser to improve point and shoot with both eyes open with the laser on or not will be an asset worth using the laser and learning how not to chase the red dot and jerk the shot vs as the dot dances on or next to desired target that is when the smooth trigger pull begins and you'll get shots on target or so close it would be a good shot..

I would say the biggest "drawback" of learning actual live round use with a laser is the fact that anyone, everyone, around you at the range will see your good shots and the bad, most being bad at first, as I said, jerking the shot while chasing the red dot as it goes over the intended target and overcoming both, "what other people may or may not be thinking along with not rushing the shots."

That is where you will need to use forced-focus via tunnel-vision (not care nor worry about what others are thinking around you) It's, after all, what you and your weapon will do for you down the road and we all have to walk down the same road for awhile before we can then start to run - with, or without, the herd

On target, very close, close, are all good shots vs "way off intended target area" and the "too much embarrassment" feelings-wise and quitting use of them is the biggest "negative" result of failing to go the_distance.. period

Like every other step in "learning" (getting accurate with one's gun) start close/walk before heading out to distance and into the running mode..

Below pics:

18ft (legal HD/SD range in my State) give or take a foot, 16ft being the first legal range to engage if no way out.



Below pioc:

Top shots are with laser, both eyes open, sides are both double taps along with right shoulder shot.

COM are no laser, both eyes open, bring gun up, point and shoot w/double taps and a few first DA pulls as first shot followed by double taps..



This is with my Beretta Px4 40 G with rail mounted Laser Max/red dot

Px4 40 G w/laser mounted and Sig P228 9mm


As mentioned, with a lot of at home, combined one eye sighting, then verifying POA with laser then being turned on and a lot of bring gun up, point and shoot, with both eyes open, again, then verifying POA by then turning on laser has been a great aid in all around gun accuracy with either type sighting methods mentioned "at close range, real world HD/SD ranges"..

And yes, the longer shots, 45ft - 63ft max at my indoor range are fun but it took a lot of practice to "understand" the red dots "dance" if in a 2 hand grip, standing position, quickly bringing gun up, activating laser, and taking the shot/s "smoothly" w/understanding from all that practice, be it humbling at first to rewarding from a certain time/moment - on

Would I win a markenship award, no..

But for HD/SD putting lead on target, quickly, yes

OMMV,



Ls

 

[bdb benzino]

I recently took my Crimson Trace grips off my S&W 642 and went to an old Uncle Mikes Boot grip for the same reasons Sam 1911 displayed. I may end up putting them on a S&W 36 for the wifey, because she likes them.

 

[MikePaiN]

Thanks for all the input. At this point I only have ~200 rounds under my belt with this P290. I'm going to work on learning it with the night sights for now. Once I'm totally comfortable with how it shoots and have rounds hitting where I want, I'll venture out and try the laser.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Why would you be focusing on the front sight if you have a laser? That would just be wrong. A laser is not a magic wand that guides your bullets to the target. Its real value in a self defense shooting would be that you are not going to be using your sights in a self defense shooting most likely anyway. What that means is most people are not going spend time searching for the front sight and then lining that up with the target. If you practice with the laser you are probably going to get pretty decent at point shooting which means the laser red dot is going to be where your eyes are already looking. Now that is true for the front sight as well. The difference is just because the front sight is lined up with the target does not mean the target, front sight and your eye are aligned. With the laser they don't have to be. If you have a laser that activates automatically, does not require a separate and additional act to turn on like an Armalaser or Crimson Trace, and a bit of point shooting skill you can be pretty quick and accurate.

I think at the highly skilled level of shooting they probably do not help, I don't consider myself highly skilled. I shoot 100 rounds a week, 50 with a laser and 50 without. I practice my draw and dry fire a couple times a week. You get a lot more out of practicing a draw with a laser. In a pretty short time you get to be a pretty good point shooter.

 

[Remllez]

Not sure they are practical on a EDC. They may be useful for training I'm still not convinced of that...the laser would seem to distract from focusing on the actual sights. Many a good pistolero has somehow managed to get along without using them and still do. They do seem to generate sales though which is probably why they are added to handguns in the first place.

 

[rhodco]

The biggest advantage my CT laser gives me is the ability to keep eyes focused on the target. Over 50 and my eyes are not as good as they used to be. Need glasses for long range focus, but those glasses inhibit my ability to focus on the iron sights. Tritium night sights were no better. It's either take my glasses off so I can see the sights, or put my glasses on so I can see the target.

My laser changes all that. I can leave my glasses on and hit what my eyes are focused on. That's all the proof I need that they are a valuable tool for me.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Not sure they are practical on a EDC. They may be useful for training I'm still not convinced of that...the laser would seem to distract from focusing on the actual sights. Many a good pistolero has somehow managed to get along without using them and still do. They do seem to generate sales though which is probably why they are added to handguns in the first place.

This is the second time I've heard the distract from iron sights argument. Please explain why this is a bad thing if you are already aiming with the laser. Iron sights are a means to an end not a solution unto themselves. They are an aiming device, no more no less. If something else is a better aiming device use it. If you have a red dot you don't ignore the red dot and use iron sights unless there is a reason to, hence the term BUIS Back up Iron Sights.

 

[cwp3420]

Agree with what John said 100%!

 

[baylorattorney]

Best thing to happen since sliced bread are cTc laser grips. I think they are invaluable for defensive shooting. I have a pair on Berretta 92 centurion or shorter version and in 10 years I have never had to service them in any way or have I had to realign the beam. Perfect. The pair on my .357 Ruger Blackhawk are not as fun or needed as that gun is used more for hunting and I can acquire a good site picture very fast and effective with the iron sights there on.

 

[Sam1911]

This is the second time I've heard the distract from iron sights argument. Please explain why this is a bad thing if you are already aiming with the laser. Iron sights are a means to an end not a solution unto themselves. They are an aiming device, no more no less. If something else is a better aiming device use it. If you have a red dot you don't ignore the red dot and use iron sights unless there is a reason to, hence the term BUIS Back up Iron Sights.

If you read my comments in post 4, I think I explained at least part of that.

Iron sights on a handgun are VERY fast for a trained shooter. Very fast on target, very VERY fast on follow-up. Some pretty exacting testing has shown that shooters -- above the most neophyte level -- cannot perform as quickly with lasers as they can with irons. It's a matter of kinesthetics -- tying the aiming point to the target where it is harder to locate vs. to the gun where it is fixed in relation to the position of your hands.

(Note that even in "open" competition styles where any kind of sight would be allowed, laser sights aren't even in the running. They just can't be made to run competitively against irons -- or optics.)

But if you practice with them and that's what you can make work best, use what works best.

 

[jmorris]

If I am playing defence, why would I want something that would give away my position or intent, besides muzzle flash? That's like giving the other coach your play book.

For dry fire practice I prefer to focus on the one thing that will help me when lead starts flying and that is the front sight.

As above in competition circles where they could be used the winners don't. They are really just for people who want to "pimp" their gun.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Posts 4 & 5 provide a pretty good explanation. Focus your training on iron sights, but feel free to use the laser as an aide and as a backup.

and is activated by tapping a button on the side.

If you ever intend on using the laser as a backup option, you better train to draw and activate that thing. I prefer ctc grips or other solutions that come on automatically when I grip the gun. But since it came along with your pistol, run what ya brung.

 

[cwp3420]

If I am playing defence, why would I want something that would give away my position or intent, besides muzzle flash? That's like giving the other coach your play book.

For dry fire practice I prefer to focus on the one thing that will help me when lead starts flying and that is the front sight.

As above in competition circles where they could be used the winners don't. They are really just for people who want to "pimp" their gun.

Must be a young person with this attitude. I would imagine that most people in their 70's and older are not shooting competition. That's not to say some are, but I imagine most aren't. But to have the immature attitude that "they are just for people who want to pimp their guns" is ridiculous. Time to grow up there, jmorris.

Time and old age treats us all differently, and to imply that older people who need the aid of a laser are simply pimping their weapons is insulting. Most people my dad's age (88) who still carry an EDC pistol, wouldn't even know the term. I'm surprised anyone in this day and age would have that attitude. Grow up!

 

[19&41]

Each time this topic comes up it seems there are more and more people who are taking these sights seriously and becoming proficient with them. There are a lot of laser sights that are difficult to activate when needed and I can understand that could sour the owners' opinions of laser sights. Also, there are sights that are manufactured with low cost as the rule. They can also disappoint. If you want to buy one as a serious accessory, try them at a gun show, at a display, at a store try them mounted as they would be on an actual firearm. If it seems slow or difficult to activate, it is not going to do well for you. You don't just want a laser mounted on your pistol for it's own sake, you want a laser sight you can activate without any special manipulation of buttons or switches. Most importantly, Practice and develop a discipline that does not sacrifice good for perfection. And don't let people talk you into being too self conscious to use it comfortably.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

I like the CT on my XD, pick up the pistol, even one handed, squeeze and it's on. I hate that in full light I can't see it at all though.

My laser changes all that. I can leave my glasses on and hit what my eyes are focused on. That's all the proof I need that they are a valuable tool for me.

Same here.

Without it I can stay com at defensive ranges but with it my groups are tighter.