Do you guys use lasers?

[Sam1911]

The only times that I train using mine is when I am firing from retention, or from a position that it is difficult to use my sights

That's an interesting point that goes to something I was trying to say in post 21.

If you're firing from retention and you have the distance from the target and the time to align the laser, WHY are you firing from retention? That's a skill that exists to allow you to place shots on target when the target is too close and closing too fast for sighted fire. Body index provides all the pointing accuracy you need to accomplish that task.

If that's the case, why are you wasting time looking for the red dot?

 

[allaroundhunter]

If you're firing from retention and you have the distance from the target and the time to align the laser, WHY are you firing from retention? That's a skill that exists to allow you to place shots on target when the target is too close and closing too fast for sighted fire. Body index provides all the pointing accuracy you need to accomplish that task.

If that's the case, why are you wasting time looking for the red dot?

Sorry, Sam, you are correct there. I was trying to think of a position that did not allow the shooter to find his sights, but firing from retention I never take time to find the dot.... Give me some time to think of a better example

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I own two; one is mounted under the handguard on a folding stock AK47. The other is mounted on the rail of my Walther P99. The AK laser gives me an option at night, but I mainly rely on the Zeiss Z-Point on the same weapon. The Walther P99 has a threaded barrel and optional AAC sound suppressor, and the laser gives it quick target acquisition at night. I CAN use the sights, but the suppressor almost obscures them, and once again, the laser gives me options. They are limited use devices, not first string, but kind of nice to have on at least one, or two guns in the line up. Why not?

 

[jon_in_wv]

Last year I bought a BG380 with the integral laser. The laser was cool and honestly at longer ranges I was able to shoot much better with it. However the laser quit working about 3 weeks after I bought it. I haven't sent it back to get fixed and honestly I don't miss it one bit. I really wish they would sell it with a small led light instead of the laser.

 

[Cosmoline]

Tried it, tried it again. I found the LCR laser to be glacially slow compared with iron sights. Worse, I found it a distraction esp. if the light levels weren't low enough. I suppose it has a purpose for dusk, but I'd rather have a tactical light instead.

The one nice thing was it served as a handy training aid for a novice who couldn't quite figure out how to make the sights work. I had him activate the laser and he cottoned to that.

 

[Upstater]

I put a lasermax guide rod laser in my g19, I use it for a bedside gun in the event of a night time need, I also have night sights installed to back up the laser, I figured it couldn't hurt, hopefully I will never have to find out.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Do you guys use lasers?

Yes.
Have been for a number of years and I practice low light/dark shooting several times a week (home range). So frankly I know what works and what doesn't.
No other low light/dark sighting system comes close to the speed and accuracy of the laser in the hands of someone that knows how to use it.

I have lasers on every defense gun that they can be mounted on, along with having lasers or laser/lights on a number of practice guns, such as,
Ruger SR9C (carry gun)


Ruger LC9 (carry gun)


Ruger SR22 (practice gun) At present this gun is being used every few evenings for low light laser practice (home range).
Everyone that's shot this gun, with and with out the laser likes it and is quite good with it.
Lately it's eating a LOT of Wal Mart 550 bulk packs.

I tore both shoulders and can't take the recoil of anything larger than a 22, for another month or two, so I'm giving the SR22 a pretty good testing.


Beretta PX4 Storm night stand gun with Streamlight TLR-2 laser/light.


Kimber Tactical Ultra carry gun with Crimson Trace laser grip. (low light practice)


FN 5.7 with Streamlight TLR-2 laser/light (house gun)


S&W 17 with Crimson Trace laser grip (low light practice gun)


S&W M&P 15-22 with Streamlight TLR-2 (stand in for the .223 AR much of the time during night practice (less noise, close neighbors.


S&W's with Crimson Trace laser grips (sometimes carry, always loaded around the house)


12 ga Rem 870 with Streamlight TLR-2 laser/light (house gun, very fast, very accurate, very deadly)


S&W 38 with Crimson Trace laser grip (fast and accurate from the hip with weak hand)


Kel Tec PLR .223 with Streamlight TLR-2 laser/light. (Just for fun. It's WAY too LOUD to consider it for a defense gun)


CZ 40P with Streamlight (night stand gun)


AR .223 Bushmaster with Streamlight. (primary HD gun)



As you can see I'm a laser fan.


.

 

[allaroundhunter]

M2, are those all separate TLR-2's? Or do you actually have that many?

 

[basicblur]

After reading the provided links, it seems the majority feel they are counter productive.

Wait long enough and they'll be back in favor - just like everything else folks love / hate / love yadda yadda yadda.

I have a few - just another tool in the toolbox, and as a retired industrial troubleshooter, I can't recall having ever complained 'bout having too many tools in ye olde toolbox.

 

[w9trb]

Sam 1911, I watched the videos you posted. Your idea of being on the ground is very different that what I was thinking as I wrote what I posted. I will grant that with such close contact a laser is useless and should be the last thing on a person's mind. I was thinking of perhaps having been wounded or simply having stumbled and still needing to finish a fight where there was some distance between me and one or more Bad Actors. I also wonder just how much impact such a laser unit could withstand before either breaking or changing POI.

 

[Sam1911]

Your idea of being on the ground is very different that what I was thinking as I wrote what I posted. I will grant that with such close contact a laser is useless and should be the last thing on a person's mind. I was thinking of perhaps having been wounded or simply having stumbled and still needing to finish a fight where there was some distance between me and one or more Bad Actors

So, if you stumble and fall, how does that make finding the red dot faster than shooting with a snap sight picture (assuming the attacker didn't use that recovery time to close the distance and turn the fight into one of those vids I posted)?

What form of being wounded would make it so you couldn't use your sights but could still align the bouncing dot, and how likely is that type and extent of wound?

I'll never say there's NO situation where the laser isn't the faster way to get hits on target -- just that every one I've heard takes so much of a confluence of odd events to produce that it seems more like a justification of the expense rather than a realistic assessment of risks. Or it reads like a totally unrealistic concept of what a desperate fight with a gun looks like.

 

[w9trb]

Sam1911, I will concede all the points you make. My time on duty never involved a shooting, I managed to avoid that use of force. But, I think being able to get a hit while in a severely contorted position by simply seeing that the laser is center mass could be a life saver for that peculiar instance. Having shot the Glock with laser, I did not run out and buy one for my G21 or S&W 586. I am just too old school and frankly just too old period. Just getting the Glock was a major departure from my main taste in firearms. I decided that a laser, while cool, just wasn't a fit with my past training, and therefore I wouldn't fall back to it when things got nasty.

 

[Sam1911]

Well, I appreciate where you're coming form, and I try pretty hard not to be old-school stuck-in-the-mud about things, but also try to perform a strenuous critical assessment of a concept to determine exactly how, and under what conditions, that concept would help me prevail in a gun fight.

There's a lot of stuff put forth by the laser manufacturers and laser sight buyers (and of course TV and movies) about the great advantages of laser sights which I can't get to ring true for me. Scenarios where, "This lets me shoot from the hip, left handed, at 15 yards and shoot a nice tight group!" or whatever and while that is certainly true, these things seem to me to fall into the category of "stupid gun tricks," not lifesaving gun-fighting techniques usable in the real world.

Then I watch folks use these at the range and I've yet to, EVER (not once), see someone shooting with a laser at a pace and with the sound technique that they should be able to achieve with iron sights.

But, like I said, I agree there are situations where a laser is more useful than iron sights. Just very, very few. Most folks (IM-V-HO) buy them as sort of a security blanket, just to "have the option," without ever figuring out in what rarified circumstances that option might come in useful. (Or as a crutch, thinking that just putting the red dot on the target will be a substitute for the hard work of learning to shoot a pistol well, quickly.)

 

[Manny]

I have three CT laser grips, two on LCR's, a .22 & .357, one on a .454 SRH Alaskan. Being a bi-focal or progressive lens wearer seeing the front sight well is getting progressively harder over time, especially with the LCR22 which really doesn't have an option for a more visible front sight that will maintain proper POA/POI. On that arm I've painted up the stock front sight with bright fingernail polish, but it's still hard to see.

Generally my biggest issue in shooting well is in how well I can see and index the gun sights, a task which isn't getting easier over time. The laser grips help a lot especially with those short barrel guns in good light, in poor light they help immeasurably more. Another issure for me is very poor vision overall, if I should ever loose my glasses in a confrontation the sights would be totally useless. The CT grips again give an edge. So for snubbies and in low light especially, to me it is indisputable that the laser grips give a significant advantage to accurate shooting.

Regardless even without the tactical advantages I find, they also help enormously with dryfire practice as any sloppiness in trigger management is very visible. I also very much prefer the CT grips ergonomically on the LCR's versus the stock grips, the SRH not as much.

I have also used CT grips on a Glock 19 a couple of times but am undecided if I'll ever try them on my personal G34 & G17L as those longer barrels help me see the front sight far better. I may look at trying a laser/light combo like an X400 to see how that works as those guns wear a light regardless.

 

[M2 Carbine]

M2, are those all separate TLR-2's? Or do you actually have that many?

Yes, I have that many and more Steamlights and Crimson Trace lasers than shown.

It's not that I have a lot of money but it's that, shortly after I retired my Wife died and I live a laid back inexpensive life style, so I can afford to put money and time into guns and shooting, on home ranges.

This is why I am such a laser fan. I have a lot of actual shooting experience with and without lasers (3-5 days/nights a week). I know from a lot of live fire shooting by myself and others, old and young, that in low light/dark the laser/laser light is king.
For instance, the last couple evenings I've been shooting, from the hip, a (just bought) laser equipped Rossi Circuit Judge .410. It's almost boring because I can't miss. Red dot = bunch of holes.

It's quite simple, if the laser wasn't the best thing going I would have stopped buying and using them many years ago, after the first couple I tried.
The problem with lasers is people buy them but don't learn how to properly use them. Like iron sights, there's a learning curve and they require practice.
Most people, including experienced shooters try to use the laser incorrectly, so they blame the laser.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I have three CT laser grips, two on LCR's, a .22 & .357, one on a .454 SRH Alaskan. Being a bi-focal or progressive lens wearer seeing the front sight well is getting progressively harder over time, especially with the LCR22 which really doesn't have an option for a more visible front sight that will maintain proper POA/POI. On that arm I've painted up the stock front sight with bright fingernail polish, but it's still hard to see.

I'm 75, with tri focal eyeglasses. (The center lens is for shooting)
This target was shot without my eyeglasses.
Although I don't favor using the laser during daylight it will still work in a pinch.

 

[ny32182]

I used to think they could be mildly useful for dryfire trigger control feedback, but I've since scrapped that outlook and currently consider them totally useless.

 

[springer99]

Everyone's circumstances are different, so that leads to difference solutions.

In my case, I use a set of CT laser grips on my HD gun of choice. In that scenario, I will likely need it most in low or no light conditions where I probably won't want to fumble around trying to find my bi-focals.

Outdoors at distances beyond 10-15yds or in good light conditions, then it has very limited appeal.

 

[M2 Carbine]

A favorite laser story.

Last year I taught a 60 year old woman to shoot, including a few times using the laser, but she hadn't bought one yet.

The lady wanted to shoot on the local range's live fire simulator. I don't know the name but it's like a bug video game that reacts to your accuracy, speed, even caliber of your gun.
Very realistic.
The local Police use the simulator for training.

The last scenario was multiple bad guys. The operator told the lady she will need an extra magazine.

I told the lady, Why don't you use my Crimson Trace equipped Ruger SR9C.

The action was fast. I wish I had a video of the lady's shooting. She was amazing with that laser, accurate and very fast. She killed all seven bad guys and wasn't hit herself.

The operator said no one had ever got through that scenario without being hit at least once.

Next week the lady bought a Crimson Trace laser.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Outdoors at distances beyond 10-15yds or in good light conditions, then it has very limited appeal.

One of the mistakes I'm talking about.

The laser is a light, to be used in low light or darkness.
If it's daylight enough to see the iron sights, use them.

If the laser is powerful enough to be seen in bright light, than it is way to bright for low light.
I have a powerful, $400 Green laser in my junk box, that I tried years ago. It's too bright. It's only good for a movie prop.

Now inside buildings most of the time the (Red) laser dot can be seen well.

 

[Sauer Grapes]

What's your thoughts on lasers?

Don't have any, don't want any. What can I say, I'm old school.

 

[dirtykid]

I have 2-SP-101's that are equipped with CT-grips,
My .357 that sits by me headboard next to a flashlight, The factory sights on the Ruger really suck even in daylight, much less at night when your half-concious,
The other SP-101 is my trapping gun, in 22LR I use the CT-grips set at CLOSE range,
for extremly accurate bullet placement on dispatch,
Everything else has nice night-sights on it,and I dont see any need to add a light when I
can easily line up 3-dots at any light level.
They ARE however VERY usefull for helping new shooters develop trigger control,they
can see instantly what happens if they are holding gun wrong,or are anticipating the shot

 

[CMC]

I got one and I did my defensive drills with it and it was very slow compared to front sight, press , that is drawing from a hoslter.
I also dont care for night sights , If you have to have them the only one you need IMHO is the front sight.

 

[Godsgunman]

I finally have a handgun with a rail so I have been debating the whole night sights vs laser vs light. I like the idea of a laser but in my mind I think the best combo would be nights with a light. The advantage a laser has over the plain sights is night time acquisition but I believe a nice bright light is even better than the laser for night time. Not only will it allow you to acquire and identify your target better, it can also momentarily blind the intruder giving you a tactical advantage. I'm obviously speaking from a home defense standpoint and not a carry standpoint. So for me I would probably do a good light first or night sights with the light over a laser, but thats just me.

 

[Sam1911]

A light is a must, but I'd be very leery of weapon lights. Most folks don't go to the trouble of carrying both a weapon light and a hand-held light around, which leads them to do their scanning with the light mounted on the gun! That's a huge rule 2 violation as you're flagging everything the light touches with the muzzle of a loaded gun.

If you'll actually use them right, and scan with a hand-held light, great! (Or practice great care in illuminating your scan area with the "throw" of the beam, but without muzzling your kid, the dog, the neighbor, etc.) But if you'll have a hand-held light on and in your hand anyway, it seems kind of silly to juggle activating two different lights.