Lasers For Police?

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A friend of mine feels that the standard issue of lasers for LEO's would slow down the rate of fire by police ( as in # of shots) and increase the hit ratio.
Quite frankly I am a bit skeptical about a laser's durability and about it's desireablity in extreme close range gunfights.
For that I favor point shooting and I am concerned that having the officer look for a laser before shooting could prove fatal.
Then again, I have played with them and find them a good thing for longer ranges and for use when behind cover.
I have heard that a laser is hard to pick up in daylight and some SWAT frinds have told me that seeing 5-8 laser dots on a perp makes it hard to know just which dot is yours.
When I asked my friend which laser product he would recommend he said the Crimson trace, since there are rumors that the Laser Max can malfunction and jam the gun.
Opinions?
 
My personal opinion, as a No Speed High Drag civilian, as it applies to self-defense or routine law enforcement:

If you have time to look around for a little red dot, the situation isn't urgent enough to justify firing your weapon.
 
My experience with lasers:

In my first department, we had Sigma .40's with LaserMax guide rods.

Everyone wanted the laser--because it was kewl!!!!! It put a little red dot on everything, and it was just SO guaranteed to improve your marksmanship.

Trouble was, it didn't work out that way.

I took mine out, and went back to the normal captive spring and rod, choosing instead to concentrate on my front sight. Indeed, it was an eye opening experience. I managed to shoot mostly tens and x's, and the other guys were chasing the little red dot.

I think that lasers have a place on your patrol rifle, as in AR15, and maybe the shotgun--but not on the handgun.
 
I'm all for lasers for everyone. They work and very well. When used correctly you don't look for the dot, the dot is where you look. In bright daylight it is harder to see the dot but not impossible. Most SD shootings happen after dark so that isn't really that big of a deal. In daylight use your sights. Like any tool there is a learning curve that goes along with its correct use. Once learned your hits will be better and faster. The laser also makes a great training tool when dry firing. The feedback and improvement it allows is awesome. CT is the best out there for my money. They are not cheap but like many things in life you get what you pay for.
 
I asked my MA instructor this question once, he's been an LEO for 12 years and a LEO trainer (handgun, shotgun, defensive tactics, EVOC) for the last several years. He said they weren't allowed to use them in IN for several reasons given to him by ILEA:

Excessive use of force: In IN, the def of lethal force is any level of force that can kill or permanently change the quality of life of an individual. Since lasers can permanently damage your eye if it gets shine in there, lasers could constitute lethal force when an actual shooting isn't required. (Lawyer babble was my instructors response to this reason).

Threat escalation: A suspect might see the dot on their chest and "freak out" and attack rather than give up if a gun were simply pointed at them without a laser. (didn't think as highly of this one either).

Target acquisition time: Many LEO's only shoot their guns once a year to qualify, without proper training, their firearms don't feel like natural extensions of their bodies, as a result, they look for the dot instead of just aiming and letting the dot be where it needs to be. When tested, most officers shooting times went up quite a bit with lasers since they were looking for the dots instead of using their sights or simply indexing their bodies. (although this does raise the point of: "if you're not looking for the dot, and are simply pointing your gun.... what's the dot actually doing?"

The biggest reason for not having them on LEO guns: "Who's dot is that?" If every LEO has a laser, and multiple LEO's are at a scene, how can you tell which dot is which? With adrenaline pumping, it's entirely possible to point your gun at a BG, see a dot, and fire, missing your target since it was another LEO's laser sight targeted on the BG.
 
Laser Mx never jammed my 1911s, but it would not work on my Warriror due to the rail. The on-/off switch could not be attached. It was for thet reason that I ended up taking it back. I would go Crimson Trace due to the auto on/auto off switch. I am waiting for the prices do drop first.
 
Lasers can be usefull in some situatins such as, shooters with certain eye problems, not being able to use sights due to how the firearm is held, long distance (>50 feet) with a J-frame etc...

I found I was faster and more accurate without lasers than with them up to 50 feet away while using a J-frame. When using a larger size handgun such as a S&W 686, sig 228, G-17 with Tritium sights I found no advantage to the laser with normal gun usage.

On the other hand when my mom (68 at the time) had me get her a laser for her G-17 5 out of her first 6 shots went into the cardiac sillhouette :eek: :) :D

Usefull for certain situations, yes? General usage? Not for me thank you very much.

Of course YMMV

NukemJim
PS I found both Crimson Trace and LaserMax to function well and seem to be well made NJ
 
Excessive use of force: In IN, the def of lethal force is any level of force that can kill or permanently change the quality of life of an individual. Since lasers can permanently damage your eye if it gets shine in there, lasers could constitute lethal force when an actual shooting isn't required. (Lawyer babble was my instructors response to this reason).

Threat escalation: A suspect might see the dot on their chest and "freak out" and attack rather than give up if a gun were simply pointed at them without a laser. (didn't think as highly of this one either).

Target acquisition time: Many LEO's only shoot their guns once a year to qualify, without proper training, their firearms don't feel like natural extensions of their bodies, as a result, they look for the dot instead of just aiming and letting the dot be where it needs to be. When tested, most officers shooting times went up quite a bit with lasers since they were looking for the dots instead of using their sights or simply indexing their bodies. (although this does raise the point of: "if you're not looking for the dot, and are simply pointing your gun.... what's the dot actually doing?"

The biggest reason for not having them on LEO guns: "Who's dot is that?" If every LEO has a laser, and multiple LEO's are at a scene, how can you tell which dot is which? With adrenaline pumping, it's entirely possible to point your gun at a BG, see a dot, and fire, missing your target since it was another LEO's laser sight targeted on the BG.

Point #1 - Excessive use of Force. Commercial handgun lasers are less than 5 mW which means they are 'eye safe' for brief periods of time. If you have an officer that is intentionally trying to blind the perp then that officer has issues - he should be aiming center mass anyway.

Point #2 - Threat Escalation. Actually, lasers are Threat DE-escalators - the BG's see the red dot and know exactly what it is and generally back down - it's one of the rare things that Hollywood has gotten right. I don't care what color the BG is or what language he speaks - a red dot on your chest is the visual equivalent of someone racking a pump shotgun...EVERYBODY knows what it means.

Point #3 - Target Acquisition time. Lasers are much faster than tradiitonal sights for acquiring targets...ESPECIALLY if you're shooting from non-traditional stances (on the ground, moving, running, barriers). Lasers do require a little range time so you don't 'chase the dot' - but once you've figured that part out you can dramatically increase acquisition time and accuracy. This is one of my favorite points - if you're in a gunfight, are you going to stand there in a perfect Weaver stance, align front and rear sight on the target, practice breath control and gently squeeze the trigger? Doubt it - odds are you're going to be hauling a$$ looking for cover (away and diagonally from the threat) and returning fire as best you can, most likely one handed. Try getting a traditional sight picture when you're doing that.

Point #4 - Who's dot is that? Ridiculous. Unless you've got 20 guys surrounding a bad guy you can tell what dot is yours. Again, if you have time to marvel at 20 dots on a bad guy you've passed the point where a laser is advantageous (other than for Point #2 - Threat DE-escalation). At that point, you should have transitioned to your iron sights.

As far as lighting conditions, all lasers will wash out in bright sunlight - however, most armed encounters occur during low light or darkness so in most SD cases the washout won't matter. A red laser is actually better in dark or low-light conditions as you can't see the beam and trace it back to the source (unless of course there are any airborne particulates...smoke, fog, etc.) A green laser at night is literally like a light sabre - and you can quickly follow it directly back to the source. The best application of a green laser is during daylight, since green is the most visible wavelength to the human eye, it is easier to see during the day. Green is great for daylight plinking, not so great for SD.

There are three main categories of folks that use lasers:

1) Women - because in general they do not practice as much as men and quickly learn that they will hit where the dot is. I've tried to explain sight picture to my wife until I'm blue in the face and she just doesn't get it...however, she knows that when she puts the red dot on the target that's where she'll hit...and that's good enough for her.

2) Older shooters - folks with bi-focals who can't see all three sight planes benefit by putting the dot on the target - that way they're only focusing on one sight plane (the target).

3) Anyone who is serious about self defense. This is the group I'm in and I think of the laser as another 'tool' in my toolbox. It's there if I need it and I practice with the laser and without it. Anything within 21 feet gets the laser - anything beyond that distance and I should have time to bring the weapon up and get a 'traditional' sight picture with iron sights.

In regards to the companies, I would recommend Crimson Trace. Their lasers are built into the grips and if anything happens with the laser, the weapon will still function. On the Lasermax systems, you're replacing a critical factory component and I have had two of their systems break while shooting, causing a weapons malfunction (one actually locked the slide solid and took about an hour to get it apart...not good in a gunfight).

The other nice thing about the CTC grips is their 'instinctive activation' - the laser comes on as soon as you grip the weapon. In a truly high stress situation you will lose fine motor skills and simply will not remember to 'turn on' the other systems...with CTC the laser is on when you need it.

As always, YMMV, but this is what I've encountered through many training situations and practical use.

If you're 23 years old with 20/20 vision and put 1000 rounds a week downrange a laser may or may not be 'necessary' for you...but the vast majority of shooters will fall into one of the three categories above and will generally benefit from having a laser on their weapon.
 
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I view well made, reliable, unobtrusive lasers that do not require additional manipulations or additions to the manual of arms to be reasonable secondary aiming devices, primarily for low light situations.

Crimson trace pretty much has the only product that fits that bill.

They make a whole lot of sense on j-frames, and other short sight radius guns with vestigial iron sights.
 
Quote:

Laser Mx never jammed my 1911s, but it would not work on my Warriror due to the rail. The on-/off switch could not be attached. It was for the reason that I ended up taking it back. I would go Crimson Trace due to the auto on/auto off switch. I am waiting for the prices do drop first.
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I just picked up my Sig P229R CT 9mm. The laser grip instructions said that by turning the On/Off switch to the Off position "does not save, or extend the battery-life" (aprox. 4hrs, give or take) and "recommend leaving the switch in the ON position during any gun use."

But, when I know I'm not gonna use it, I turn it to the OFF position, anyway, when I'm using the Px4 40cal, which I just got a Laser Max rail-mount laser for, as well.

One question I have about the Laser Max, which is not addressed in the operator's manual is; it comes in a "pulse mode" from the factory, which they say intensifies the light output, but for now, I switched it to a constant beam output.

But I would like to know what effect, if any, the pulsating beam has on the battery life, as opposed to the constant beam.

Otherwise, same deal as CT laser battery's life.. aprox. 4hrs, give or take.



LS
 
LASER

Ive had good experience with the crimson trace on my snubby and other guns, I've tried other brands but the CT seem to stay and hit in the exact same spot for a long time, with others for some reason if the gun gets handled a lot it seems to move. Lasers are good tools but not magical, you shall still practice point shooting that way it you wont spend a lot a time trying to find the dot. After some practice it just becomes natural to have that dot in the target in no time. I disagree with the daylight crap i can still manage to see the dot in mine at 15ft in daylight. So if you have the $$ and poor eyesight like mua then get them you wont regret it. I have to say 2 that when the BG get that red dot in their chest or genitals :evil: they tend to get calm rather quickly. And by the way im an LEO as well:)
 
Lasers are good for practice as well. If you have problems flinching before firing the laser makes this very evident. I have one on my home defense pistol along with a tac-light. The present in low light or dark situations is very intimidating.
 
Lasers are good for practice as well. If you have problems flinching before firing the laser makes this very evident. I have one on my home defense pistol along with a tac-light. The presence in low light or dark situations is very intimidating.
 
Lasers can help a lot with practice including with sight picture when properly aligned. I sight mine a little high and I can see it just above my sights. Very hard to miss, I have to be trying to miss. Also with it just above I don't have to look for it either, it just verifies what I should already know.

On a pistol they also work wonders with follow up shots and rapid fire on a single target. I can empty a 14 round clip in less than 5 seconds from 25 feet with all rounds striking center mass of a man size target in a group about the size of a soccer ball.. While this is of limited usefulness we have a saying 'When in doubt empty a magazine'.

In the day time I can clearly see red light laser as 25 yards so long as the target is lightly colored. With a scope I can see it out to about 100 yards. This is quite far, farther than any self defense application calls for and it is not used in that capacity. On darker targets it is harder to see in the day time. At night distance is not an issue.

On my HD shotgun I have a light/ laser combo that is just great. Don't really need the light inside when the power is on but is nice to have it if in case it is not or I am outside. The light centers the target the laser narrows it down. The laser is very clearly visible even with the bright light shining.
 
I didn't say that I liked or agreed with the reasoning behind anything I cited. I was answering the original question of why more PD's don't issue lasers on firearms. I personally think it's BS, similar to the retirement of the PR24 (tonfa style baton) in favor of the collapsable batons due to the likelyhood of damage done by the PR24, and the psycological effect the PR24's have on suspects. The idea behind the collapsables is that they are easier to hide from the suspect while in a ready position.

Don't cloud a lawyers argument (eye damage BS) with logical facts, they don't belong there. Truth is, there have been no reported cases about permanent damage done to a retina from a laser pointer. It is possible to burn a retina with a 5 mW laser, especially one in say a VCR or DVD player, where the laser is in the nonvisible spectrum.

My understanding was that the ILEA PTB (powers that be) polled a couple of classes at the academy what they would do if they saw a laser sight on their chest. Would they freeze, or move and start shooting? Remember, people react differently to stimuli. Some people drop when shot in a non-vital area, some fight even harder. By the same token, the sound of a shotgun being racked makes some people freeze, it makes others shoot at you. Relying on a psycological effect to subdue someone may or may not work.

"Lasers do require a little range time so you don't 'chase the dot' - " Keep in mind, most LEO only practice with their gun ONE TIME A YEAR. 48 rounds are fired for qualification in IN. I've met officers that have been carrying the same gun for 10 years, and couldn't tell me what model of S&W they carried. You're assuming that everyone will train with the guns so that they are automatically using the lasers. When my instructor became one of the range officers for our dept, he included field stripping and cleaning as part of the qual. since it was demonstrated that many of the officers didn't clean their firearms AT ALL.

LEO handgun training, at least what I've done, involved point shooting out to 7 yards, then flash sight pictures out to about 15 yards. Then sighted fire from behind cover. More often covered though, was situational awareness and de-escalation tactics to STOP you from having to shoot.

"Who's dot is that? Ridiculous" Let's use your own argument, two officers arrive on scene for a domestic at night, they approach a couple fighting with flashlights in hand, a BG pulls a weapon, the officers draw, while moving for cover, and pointing at the BG with their firearms down near their holsters, one see's a dot on the BG's chest, and fires.... missing the BG since it was the other officers laser on target, and puts that bullet thru window behind the BG's shoulder and into a child's head. How can you be 100% sure it's your laser on target WHILE you are moving. Especially if you are shooting from a low retention position while moving.

Also, if you rely on your laser for sighting... what are you going to do if your batteries die?

For the record, I actually like laser sights, especially the crimson trace. I've only gotten to play with a lasermax once, but I didn't like it as much. After a few rounds, the laser was difficult to see due to powder residue on the lens.

I was merely answering the original question as to why my local PD's don't issue lasers on firearms. At least, that's what they claim.... I think it has more to do with cost than the reasoning they cited.

YMMV
 
Don't cloud a lawyers argument (eye damage BS) with logical facts, they don't belong there.

I agree completely and my response was not targeted at YOU but the information cited (lawyer BS).

I've met with many CLEO's and it's interesting that they cite some of the same reasons above. My favorite is that they will issue laser equipped tasers to their troops but feel that a laser on a handgun is too 'aggressive' or 'threatening' - never mind there's a loaded firearm pointed at you.

I agree on the LEO range time as well - I've seen MANY LEO's at the range (and these are the unusual guys that practice more than the once a year qualification) - it's still pretty scary (for the most part - there are exceptions) to see them shoot. Most of the LEO's I run across have very little firearm knowledge as you mentioned. There is a study out that I have seen from the NIJ (can't put my finger on a link, sorry) but it showed that officers involved in shootings without lasers have a 20% hit ratio - that's one round on target and four rounds not on target. Officers involved in shootings that are equipped with lasers have a 90%+ hit ratio.

As far as the batteries - lasers are an electronic devices so they are prone to failure just like anything else. However, I'm at the range at least a couple of times a month and I haven't changed the batteries in my laser grips for about a year now and they are still bright. It's suggested that you change the batteries at least once a year just to be on the safe side. For LEO's (or anyone for that matter) I would suggest doing a function check before you go out for the day - just like making sure you have a loaded mag that is firmly seated with a round in the chamber and the safety on. I do this with all my equipment in the morning, and even check to make sure my flashlight is working and my knives are unlocked.

How can you be 100% sure it's your laser on target WHILE you are
moving.

You can never be 100% sure - however, I'd point back to the lack of training. Take a look at this thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=262581 and watch the video - absolutely amazing that non of the officers on the other side didn't get hit in that exchange.
 
I had a Lazermax guide rod in my Glock 22 for a while when I worked for the S.O.

I finally took it out, 'cause every time the S hit the F, and I needed to draw and aim my gun.... I forgot to turn the damned thing on. I was too busy looking at the suspect and my front sight ( Had a set of meprolights on the gun too. )

After about 4-5 months, I took it out, put the factory rod back in the gun, and sold the laser to a friend of mine that had gone to work in the Drug Taskforce here... I have no idea if it was ever of any use to him or not.

Oh, and by the way... Lasers are all but useless in heavy rain, fog, or when chasing escapees through the woods. Or anywhere else that you might have to deal with light cover, like bushes and such. This might not be of much concern to cops in a more urban environment, but for a county cop that works out in rural areas, it is.



J.C.
 
I'd like to second the intimidation factor of that red dot on the chest. A LEO friend of mine works North STL and he says that the 'perps' up there will stop on a dime as soon as that dot hits them.
 
Cacique ~

Good posts.

Daylight savings time is a good time to change out the batteries in your home smoke alarms ... and in your lasers.

Otherwise, just check 'em when you're doing your routine gun cleaning. Just like every other piece of lifesaving equipment you own, maintenance is important.

And if the battery dies? You're no worse off with a laser than without one. If the battery doesn't die, you're ahead. Sounds pretty simple to me.

pax
 
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