lead free

[labnoti]

I'm concerned about lead toxicity and I'm considering abandoning lead as much as possible.

I understand lead ammo bans can be used to further an agenda to restrict and regulate ammo for ideological purposes, and I'm not supporting any agenda to enforce my preferences or anyone else's by legislation.

I do believe that airborne lead from primers and erosion of bullet bases and bearing surfaces presents an inhalation risk, particularly within indoor ranges, but even outdoors. Exposed lead bullets, and soil contaminated with lead that has oxidized or dissolved also becomes a risk for ingestion.

Personally, I'm concerned about handling lead on the reloading bench, in my pockets, loading magazines and cylinders, and shooting. I only shoot outdoors. There are no indoor ranges near here, and I typically do not shoot around other shooters, but the areas I shoot in are frequented. They're littered with bullets, and cases, mostly steel and aluminum that people don't pick up. The impact areas and where the runoff from them collects are full of bullets.

I always wash my hands with soap and cold water after reloading, shooting, or cleaning the guns, and before I eat. But minimizing the amount of lead I'm exposed to seems like an important step. The result of my own decisions will probably have little effect on the environmental hazards around the shooting areas I visit, but I for the same reason I don't leave empty cases, cans, papers, other targets and trash when I leave, I would be doing better not to leave lead bullets, shot and plastic wads all over those places. Unlike commercial ranges, they don't have employees to pick up and recycle all the litter.

I've been using full-plated Berry's "lead safe" bullets to minimize exposure on the reloading bench and with handling, but I still load and shoot a lot of jacketed hollow-points because they are what I carry. I primarily shoot handgun (.357) and .22LR. It's those higher volume cartridges that are most worth replacing, not every oddity that I rarely shoot or handle.

Finding a lead-free substitute for .22LR would be important. The copper-polymer composite bullets should be fine for handguns, but I've been thinking about replacing the .22LR rifle my kids shoot with a .223 anyway, and if I went lead-free, there would be even more reason to do so. I'd think we'd shoot something like the Barnes Varmint Grenades. It just seems like lead-free .223 is a better deal for kids than filthy .22LR. I always load the magazines with the rimfire cartridges so they don't have to smear their fingers with it.

For carry, it would appear the Barnes XPB bullets are the choice of a few premium self-defense factory loads and that those loads perform well in standardized tests. They're pricey, and I can't find the 125 gr. .357 at the moment (only the 140 gr.). I'd have to consider whether I'd keep shooting "lead-safe" plated bullets for practice or try to find a lead-free bullet that's cost-effective for target shooting. The copper-polymer bullets are reasonably affordable compared to the XPB or CNC-machined bullets but their light-weight might result in a considerably different recoil effect compared to my carry rounds.

I understand most primers use and eject lead. While there are some lead-free primers out there, they don't appear to be readily available and it's hard to tell whether the ones available are of consistent quality or not.

I anticipate some people will respond with dismissals of the seriousness of lead toxicity or the risks of exposure in shooting and reloading, and anecdotes regarding the negligible lead levels in their blood despite how long they've been careless or cavalier about it. How much one wants to expose themselves to the risks is a decision most people make for themselves. I hope no one makes the decision for you or me, but it would be foolish to ignore good opportunities to mitigate the risk.

 

[Hunter86004]

With the billions of rounds of ammunition that have been fired that contain lead, it really hasn't had much effect on the human species unless it was injected at high speed.

This ought to be an interesting thread.

 

[Twiki357]

I can only respond based on my personal experience. I have been casting and reloading (and shooting) cast lead bullets since about 1958. Originally in a 6’ x 6’ storage shed in the backyard with little to no ventilation and for the last 20+ years in the garage. Since I’ve been casting and reloading in the garage, I do have a fan blowing across the work area toward the open garage door. About the only precautions I have taken is not putting my hands near my face and washing my hands before handling anything else. In my last blood test for lead I had a level of 9. If I recall correctly, anything below 15 is not of concern. I understand that different people are more or less susceptible to absorbing lead so read into this what you want.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

You’re right to be concerned about the harmful affects of lead. And I worry when I see comments that say lead is nothing to worry about.

Not to be political but last month the head of EPA meet with all of the other cabinet heads to address the problems that lead is causing. They decided to make lead poisoning a top priority of the administration.

Around the same time, reports came out that in addition to the mental health problems in children and the reproductive issues in adults lead poisoning may also cause heart issues and high blood pressure. So we’re still learning all of the long term damage that lead causes. Don’t forget for generations smoking was considered safe. In many ways we’re in the equivalent of where we were in the late 1960s or early 1970s with the knowledge.

I’ve never been a fan of EPA as I’ve always felt that they’ve always seemed to go too far in some place and not far enough in others. In lead safety they have an excellent program that was passed bipartisonly under the Bush administration and signed into law by Obama. Trump to his credit appears to be increasing the inforcement and we’re finally starting to see concen in the home improvement industry where it’s estimated that only 10% of the firms follow the law,

Again I mention this not to be political but to explain that it’s a bigger issue and most folks don’t understand lie data it. I deal with this stuff every day and every day we’re finding that it’s a bigger and bigger issue.

Since, I’ve been working with lead safety, I’ve tried to figure out how it relates to those of us who shoot. The problem is how much lead is dangerous as lead doesn’t leave the body like other metals. Also lead dust travels easily and trace amounts can harm children and animals. Worse while lead in water, gasoline, and paint has been studied, no one has studied the impact on those who shoot often. So we don’t have reliable data. And given the state of academia I think a fair study is going to be impossible right now.

Personally I don’t think we need to panic, but I do think we need to take more precautions. I’d love to see lead free primers become the industry standard, and I’d love to see lead bullets be replaced by something safer. Thankfully this administration has stopped the war in the 2nd Amendment of the previous, but they’re just now figuring out that we need to address the lead problem. So they’re not forcing a replacement for lead that leads to huge cost increases to us. And being frugal I try to find value not cheap or super expensive.

With all of this in mind, I will say that we all should use care when shooting. I think the following is the minimum things one should do, and probably more should be done, but we don’t have any real guidance. So... Don’t put your hands near your mouth or eyes until you’ve cleaned you’re hands really well as you will pick up lead dust when shooting. Change your clothes after you get home from shooting and wash them as soon as you can. I’d you can’t, dont throw then on the floor or in with the laundry but rather put them in a sealed bag. Clean your guns and gear away from food and make sure the area is cleaned up and used wipes are in sealed trash bags where kids and animals can’t get to them. I’m sure there’s more, but I’m half asleep, but these are the biggies.

When casting treat lead like the poison it is. And when reloading again use caution.

I’d also add that everyone is different. If you have health issues, then lead will multiply them. But if you’re healthy don’t think lead won’t harm you as it’s a slow and sneaking bugger who messes us up over time not fast like some ailments.

Working with this stuff I have access to information that many here don’t have. So I highly suggest people take the time to learn more. I’ll add a disclaimer that the things I’ve posted are my opinion and what I currently feel. It’s not a professional recommendation and people are still free (at least for now) to do and say what they want. Failure to learn safe lead handling practices and failure to be safe is your choice. Likewise the levels of precaution you take is your choice. Personally I think reasonable care makes sense, but for some it may not be enough. What I do and suggest is what I do, and probably not enough. So caution and apply at your own risk.

 

[Grumulkin]

I have done a lot of reloading but mostly with jacketed bullets. I've never done bullet casting and except on rare occasions I always shoot outdoors. Several years ago, I had a blood lead level checked and, guess what, no evidence of lead exposure over what everyone else in the USA is exposed to.

I am aquainted with the case of one who worked at an indoor shooting range that did have evidence of excessive lead exposure.

That said, I'm not downplaying the hazzards of lead exposure. It can cause all sorts of ill effects and, once in the body, it takes a LONG time to come out. There is no doubt that eating meat that came near a wound from a lead bullet will be contaminated with lead and should not be eaten. In fact, I go one step further and don't eat meat at all since it's unhealthy (yea, I'm a vegetarian with a most recent cholesterol of 134) even without lead concerns.

 

[Robert]

Folks, this strikes me as the kind of thread that is going to have a strong opinions one way or the other. That is fine. Remember, we never attack the person, only the argument. Please remain civil and keep things on topic. Getting snarky or chasing rabbit trails into the weeds will get this shut down in a hurry.

 

[maxxhavoc]

I try to use a minimizing approach. While I have not had lead level issues, I don't like to invite trouble.

While these won't help the environmental effects of 22LR, they will help with skin contact, and possibly inhalation:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6...-red-white-and-blue-coated-bullets-box-of-300

 

[buck460XVR]

At my age my exposure to lead does not concern me as much as the exposure to my grandkids. They're the ones it affects the most with their developing minds and bodies. So I try to limit their exposure to lead when they are around me and my home. This includes when we shoot and how I reload.

 

[Walkalong]

Be smart about lead and it is not an issue. Shooters should make sure when their Doc does blood tests they check lead levels just to be sure, but the vast majority of shooters never have an issue.

The how to for keeping lead levels low is very simple and has been discussed many times. You can get books on the subject.

Be smart, check lead levels, have fun.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Now don't get me wrong, I believe that lead exposure is something we should worry about, but I also believe that it's not as much a risk as some think or make it out to be. When reloading lead bullets wear latex gloves. Or just switch to plated bullets like powder coated lead bullets.
They stopped putting lead in paint years ago. I remember one of the big reasons for going to lead free paint is because kids were getting sick from eating lead base paint chips. I don't know about you, but me and my friends never got int eating paint chips. But I do remember that when we hunted with pellet rifles, we would keep about 5 or 6 pellets in our mouth for quicker reloads. This most likely wasn't good for our health, but we all lived, had children and grand children.
I do love these health warnings that say that something may cause this or that. The key word here is MAY. It may or may not, but the truth is, they don't know. Do you remember back when eggs were bad for you. Boy did they get that one wrong.
I bet if all the shooters here on the forum were to get a lead test done, about 99% of us would be ok.
Doing your best to limit your exposure to lead is a good thing, and should always be a concern when dealing with ammo and guns. But then again there are more then likely a hundred other things that will kill you before lead exposure will effect you.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Be smart about lead and it is not an issue.

This.
Personal responsibility and common sense.

I have one of those strong opinions Robert mentioned. The EPA's core interests are power, money and control, not the environment. "Waters of the United States" is a good example.
Next on the list of things we will be told to fear is stainless steel cookware and eating utensils, stay tuned

 

[reddog81]

I cast the vast majority of bullets I shoot, however I try and minimize the frequency I touch the lead. Just about the only time I touch the lead is when putting it into the pot and then sorting the bullets once I'm done casting. Once the defects are sorted out, everything else goes into a container to be powder coated. From there I use tweezers to place the bullets on a tray to be cooked. After the PC is cooked there is no exposed lead on the bullet when reloading or shooting.

I use a fan in my open garage to keep fumes away and help stay cool. After shooting I wash my hand thoroughly. This is one step I don't think most people even worry about. I religiously wash my hands before leaving the range. I can't recall ever seeing anyone else ever do this at the ranges I visit.

 

[Art Eatman]

I started shooting .22 rifles in 1941. I've done a fair amount of pistol shooting at an indoor range, back around 1982. I've killed and eaten of some 60 deer, plus numerous dove and quail. Did the USPSA thing from 1981-1983; lead bullets.

My last blood chemistry check, back in 2008, showed zero problem with lead. My view is for common sense, but not to worry about it.

 

[stchman]

I asked my doctor about lead from ammunition. I told him that I handle ammo and frequent indoor ranges. He said that unless you're ingesting it, not a whole lot to worry about.

I personally think the whole lead free thing is just a feel good thing by antis.

 

[Hunter86004]

Being someone who has been casting bullets for years (60 for me) and never shown an elevated lead level, I've begun to wonder if the warnings that pertain to only doing it in a well ventilated area are really something to be concerned about. The only reasons I can come up with for casting lead in a ventilated area are lead vapor and lead dust and since lead starts vaporizing at 1100 degrees, which is about 400 degrees hotter than I've ever used, I don't see that as a problem. As far as dust, I'd like some input as to how casting causes dust.

 

[labnoti]

I understood a number of respondents would dismiss the risks of lead exposure and provide anecdotes regarding the negligible lead levels in their blood despite how long they've been careless or cavalier about it.

But no lead level in the blood has been established as safe. There is no evidence whatsoever that "you're ok" as long as your BLL doesn't go above a certain number. Instead, even low levels of lead in blood have been shown to affect IQ, ability to pay attention, and academic achievement, and a good long-term outcome of even minute levels, although hard to determine, can hardly be expected. What's more, the effects of lead exposure cannot be corrected.

If you're waiting to see evidence of a higher BLL or any effects from lead exposure, it will be too late to do anything about it.

CDC states, "The absence of an identified BLL without deleterious effects, combined with the evidence that these effects appear to be irreversible, underscores the critical importance of primary prevention."

Being "smart" or using "common sense" alone isn't enough to prevent lead exposure for shooters and reloaders. There are methods to limit exposure, ventilating, shooting outdoors, washing hands and clothes, using plated or coated bullets, and so on. However, only eliminating the lead will prevent exposure.

Let me be clear that I'm not trying to eliminate your use of lead for you. This isn't advocacy for banning lead. It's about our own personal decisions to not worry and be careless, to try to minimize lead exposure with our choices and habits, or to eliminate lead from our own practices. I don't shoot with other people, so what you decide for yourself doesn't effect me much.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I asked my doctor about lead from ammunition. I told him that I handle ammo and frequent indoor ranges. He said that unless you're ingesting it, not a whole lot to worry about.

Maybe he didn't explain it fully. Ingestion means to take into the body. You can eat eat, breath it, or absorb it through the skin. A goodly amount of lead ingestion comes from transference from the hands to the mouth/face, to food, and/or to cigarettes.

I have known one range officer who had to go through chelation therapy. He did not enjoy it.

 

[Hunter86004]

But no lead level in the blood has been established as safe.

While there my not be an established 'safe' level, the medical profession has come up with thresholds as to normal and high.

 

[Walkalong]

I understood a number of respondents would dismiss the risks of lead exposure and provide anecdotes regarding the negligible lead levels in their blood despite how long they've been careless or cavalier about it.

So what is your point?

 

[Hunter86004]

I have known one range officer who had to go through chelation therapy. He did not enjoy it.

Was this, by chance, at an indoor range?

 

[Walkalong]

Being "smart" or using "common sense" alone isn't enough to prevent lead exposure for shooters and reloaders. There are methods to limit exposure, ventilating, shooting outdoors, washing hands and clothes, using plated or coated bullets, and so on. However, only eliminating the lead will prevent exposure.

So I can assume you are are going to quit shooting?

Or are you going to continue to be among those of us who.....

I understood a number of respondents would dismiss the risks of lead exposure and provide anecdotes regarding the negligible lead levels in their blood despite how long they've been careless or cavalier about it.

 

[Hunter86004]

Exposed lead bullets, and soil contaminated with lead that has oxidized or dissolved also becomes a risk for ingestion.

A bit of research will tell you that lead oxide is not soluble in water. The lead salts, which are the bad stuff, are water soluble and would be leached out by rain rather quickly.

 

[labnoti]

Blood is not the only repository for lead in the body. BLL is probably the best indicator for evidence of recent lead exposure, but over the longer term, soft-tissue and bones also store lead, and this burden is not indicated in the BLL.

While "high" vs. "normal" BLL's will be evidence of an immediate problem, need to identify and control sources, and possible indication for chelation therapy, a "normal" BLL doesn't indicate safety.

One could argue that they've been shooting for 50 years and their BLL hasn't increased more than their neighbors who has never handled firearms, or that their BLL is the same as their neighbor's who doesn't shoot. That would seem to be evidence that firearms don't increase the risk of lead exposure above "normal." There are two problems with that. First, it's anecdotal evidence. Second, the shooter's BLL could have been lower still had they reduced their exposure to lead, and that BLL lower than their neighbors would almost certainly be healthier than an equivalent level to "normal." Lower is better than "normal."

 

[labnoti]

So I can assume you are are going to quit shooting?

I'm giving consideration to the idea to quit shooting and reloading lead. Because I don't shoot with people other than my own family, I can practically eliminate our exposure to lead from shooting and reloading. This would mean switching to lead-free bullets like Barnes, CNC type, or copper-polymer, and using lead-free primers. I wouldn't be the only one making similar considerations, the DoD developed and adopted the M855A1 cartridge with similar criteria.

 

[labnoti]

A bit of research will tell you that lead oxide is not soluble in water. The lead salts, which are the bad stuff, are water soluble and would be leached out by rain rather quickly.

It doesn't have to be soluble in water to be dangerous. Lead oxidizes in the dirt backstops and the dust blows around the range. It can be inhaled and it gets on skin and clothes and can be ingested.