lead free

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Basically, it all boils down to risks and what risks we, as individuals, are willing to take. Every day we take risks of one kind or another. It's what humans do. Most of us try to mitigate the risk to some level we're comfortable with and everyone has their own comfort level. As far as lead poisoning, on a scale of cavalier to anal, I'm somewhere in the middle.

For me, the enjoyment I get from casting my own bullets, reloading, and shooting far outweighs the risk of lead poisoning.
 
labnoti said:
It doesn't have to be soluble in water to be dangerous. Lead oxidizes in the dirt backstops and the dust blows around the range. It can be inhaled and it gets on skin and clothes and can be ingested.
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Good to know. I guess I'm safe since our range runs east to west with the targets in the east and our prevailing winds are from the west. No dust in our faces.
 
Up until this past December I was a full time LE firearms instructor. Going into the job I hadn't much considered the lead issue, as I like many of you had never had any issues (that I knew of at least). Well fast forward a few years and I was in charge of figuring out why almost every ones blood lead levels (BLLs) were high (above a 10).

So as labnoti noted above any BLL is bad for you, for adults it's less serious than in young adults or children. A BLL of 1-2 has shown measurable negative effects in terms of cognitive ability in children. For adults there are significantly higher BLLs before OSHA steps in etc, however anything above a 5 does correlate to the onset of variety of mental and physical issues.

The single biggest factor in raising you lead levels is in ingesting (as in eating). As Double Nought Spy noted above, that mainly comes from transferring lead from your hands to your food or mouth. Inhalation via smoking is going to be the second biggest issue as your hands transfer the lead to your cigarette, and then your breath it in. From there lead in the air is a distant third unless you're talking about extremely high concentrations usually only seen in an industrial setting (but there have been several recorded fatalities from indoor range environments due to this). Lastly skin absorption is a possible vector, but usually not a major issue unless you're talking very high levels of lead in the environment (IIRC there was one case from an employee mining out or cleaning out the berm that this was the primary vector). The main thing is that lead is soluble in sweat, but it takes a while. So if you're not standing around sweating in an area with large amounts of airborne lead dust (ie an active range), for a long period of time this is a low level risk for most people.

-Jenrick
 
Like others have said, there is risk in everything we do. But if you were to ask people how many people they know that have had lead poisoning, the numbers would be low if any at all.
Over the years our dally exposure to lead has decreased. Lead pipe is no longer used for plumbing. Lead is no longer used to seal can foods. No longer used in paint (no more tasty paint chips).
Also the handling of lead is done safer these days. And this is due to better knowledge.
You average shooter is in less danger from lead poisoning then he is from being eaten by a bear, or just a plan old bear attack.
Most people are afraid of something, and if lead exposure is what scares you, then by all means take the steps that you feel will make you feel better.
 
I could see issues with inhaling lead at indoor ranges that aren't properly ventilated. But that is more of a ventilation problem than a lead problem. I don't shoot plain lead bullets. Everything I shoot is jacketed so I'm never in direct contact with lead when shooting or loading. That decision isn't due to health concerns, I just like jacketed bullets better.

As far as personal defense is concerned, there are lots of people out there who have been shot and still have lead bullets, or lead fragments in their bodies and have had them for years with no ill effects. As near as I can tell as long as you don't inhale, or ingest it there isn't a problem.

For hunting the solid copper bullets have their place. In many respects they work better than conventional lead bullets, albeit at about double the price. And this is where I believe there is the greatest possibility of ingesting lead. But if reasonable care is taken in preparation even that possibility is small. I've experimented with the copper hunting bullets and would use them and not feel handicapped.
 
A friend of mine was a compliance supervisor/mediator for our state's environment and conservation department. He had a masters in biology and extensive training in environmental codes and laws. He said the concern over lead bullets in the ground were overblown as lead will form a coating of oxidation that prevents the lead from leaching into the ground and into the watershed. I view anything the CDC claims about lead bullets with a lot of skepticism as the CDC has demonstrated a strong anti-gun attitude. I am more concerned about lead in drinking water carried through lead water pipes.
 
I have reloaded some Polycase ARX bullets. they are different to reload. It is like they have no give at all. I have had a few brass cases totally deform in the seating die, that has not happened with other bullets.

I realize this adds little to the "lead bullets, good/bad?" conversation. I am just trying to say that some of the lead alternatives may be harder to work with.
 
George Dickel said:
He said the concern over lead bullets in the ground were overblown as lead will form a coating of oxidation that prevents the lead from leaching into the ground and into the watershed.
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Your friend is correct. Lead oxide was used in paint because it acts as a moisture barrier and is not water soluble. Worked well as house paint, for painting iron/steel bridges, and ships, among other things.
 
To be sure, there is more than one concern with lead bullets in the ground. One would be if the lead leached into groundwater and contaminated sources of drinking water. As far as I know, that hasn't been the biggest concern for shooting ranges. Although I'm not sure that switching to lead-free shot for waterfowl was a bad idea.

Again, the concern about lead bullets in the ground at the range is because we're shooting those backstops that are full of lead, over and over again, kicking up lead dust.

There's an apparent contrast between firearm enthusiasts precaution against AD's and lead safety. We chastise people who make the least infringement of the "4 rules" in a video, but quickly dismiss concerns about lead safety. Shaming over not checking a gun is clear is so prevalant, I see people in Youtube videos adamant to show their audience the gun is clear for fear of being shamed for not checking, as if viewers themselves could be harmed by an AD. Heaven forbid they don't clearly display their finger outside the trigger guard! But lead safety? That's for wusses.
 
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labnoti said:
To be sure, there is more than one concern with lead bullets in the ground. One would be if the lead leached into groundwater and contaminated sources of drinking water. As far as I know, that hasn't been the biggest concern for shooting ranges. Although I'm not sure that switching to lead-free shot for waterfowl was a bad idea.

Again, the concern about lead bullets in the ground at the range is because we're shooting those backstops that are full of lead, over and over again, kicking up lead dust.

There's an apparent contrast between firearm enthusiasts precaution against AD's and lead safety. We chastise people who make the least infringement of the "4 rules" in a video, but quickly dismiss concerns about lead safety. Shaming over not checking a gun is clear is so prevalant, I see people in Youtube videos adamant to show their audience the gun is clear for fear of being shamed for not checking, as if viewers themselves could be harmed by an AD. Heaven forbid they don't clearly display their finger outside the trigger guard! But lead safety? That's for wusses.
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Boy you must really be upset that people just aren’t as worried about lead exposure as you are, so you stoop to calling us names. That was very big of you. :thumbdown:
 
I am surprised that my Photobucket pictures are still up in this thread:

Shooting poly coated (or non-coated, for argument sake) cast indoors.. Anyone been checked?

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ors-anyone-been-checked.814824/#post-10435145

Anyway, I believe that exposure to elemental lead, blown out the end of our barrels, is the greatest source of lead accumulation in our blood stream. Lead particles from primers and lead particles from lead bullets, are floating around in front of your face after firing lead bullets with lead styphanate primers. You breathe them in, they go in your lungs, and directly into your blood stream. Breathe enough lead, and you will die. If you search this, you will find articles that reference Law Enforcement who ran indoor target ranges, and died from lead poisoning.

This is a very emotional argument, you will run into a lot of shooters who equate lead with freedom, and they don't want to read that lead is extremely toxic, or that shooting will raise the lead levels in your blood.
 
Slamfire said:
You breathe them in, they go in your lungs, and directly into your blood stream.
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Well, not quite.

"Airborne particles first pass through the nasal passageways and/or mouth and throat and many are caught, but those that enter the lungs become trapped in mucus.

Your cilia act like a constant escalator, bringing up that mucus from your lungs 24/7. You reflexively swallow it without even realizing it. That is why when you are healthy, you might not even notice.

If you are sick (or asthma/allergies), more mucus is produced. That is when you may notice the increased quantity coming up, and may need to cough to bring more up.

If your cilia are damaged (like in smokers), then mucus does not clear well from the lungs. In this case, people must cough more in order to bring it up.'

https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/16454/how-the-lungs-clear-themselves

The problem arises when what you breathed in ends up in your stomach.
 
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Hunter86004 said:
Well not quite.

"Airborne particles first pass through the nasal passageways and/or mouth and throat and many are caught, but those that enter the lungs become trapped in mucus.

Your cilia act like a constant escalator, bringing up that mucus from your lungs 24/7. You reflexively swallow it without even realizing it. That is why when you are healthy, you might not even notice.

If you are sick (or asthma/allergies), more mucus is produced. That is when you may notice the increased quantity coming up, and may need to cough to bring more up.

If your cilia are damaged (like in smokers), then mucus does not clear well from the lungs. In this case, people must cough more in order to bring it up.'

https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/16454/how-the-lungs-clear-themselves

The problem arises when what you breathed in ends up in your stomach.
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So, the lead does not go from the lungs directly into the blood stream, but goes into the stomach. What happens after that? Does the lead then go into the large and small colon, and then into the blood? I understand that lead ends up in the liver, perhaps other organs. How does it leave the body? (I read something about lead staying in the body)
 
I don’t think that anyone is saying that lead exposure is good for you. I think that most of us understand that lead is bad for us. So telling us that lead is bad, is like telling the guy that is standing in the rain, that it’s raining.
It’s just that some of us don’t mind getting a little wet.
 
Lead replaces calcium in your bones as far as long term storage in the body. This is why high lead levels can be very difficult to get rid of. A diet high in calcium can help, but it doesn't prevent it from happening still.

Inhalation from fired rounds particularly in an outdoor or well ventilated indoor range, presents a relatively low risk of lead levels unless you are around it A LOT. Like work at the range all day amounts. However that airborne lead settles on your clothing, your hands, your skin, etc. and now the problem arises. If you have truly good lead hygiene (which is WAY more involved than most people think), the airborne lead from gunfire is a very minimal risk.

However where most of us run into trouble is going to be secondary contamination from less then perfect lead hygiene. Who here changes clothes and showers before eating after they've been around gunfire every time? This is a big way to introduce lead into the body via ingestion. Who here changes clothes and showers before moving into a lead free environment? Now you create secondary contamination, it is pretty much impossible not to. So for those who have young children simply wearing the same clothes home from the range can introduce a lead hazard to them.

For us grown folks, it's probably a fairly minimal risk based on the exposure level of the average shooter. For someone like myself who would could spend 90% of their work time on an active firing line it can be a very big deal. For those of you who have kids, particularly little ones, you might do some reading to see what the effects can be, and decide what you want to do.

-Jenrick
 
GunnyUSMC said:
...so you stoop to calling us names. That was very big of you. :thumbdown:
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Where did I call anyone a name? I rhetorically wrote that people like myself who are concerned about lead safety are "wusses." If it was anything, it was self-deprecation.
 
labnoti wrote:
I'm concerned about lead toxicity
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I have been reloading for 40+ years. During that time I have never taken any specific precautions with respect to lead dust from primers.

In the early days of the personal computer, I built a number of my own computers using lead solder and a soldering iron; taking no special precautions to avoid inhaling the fumes from the solder.

For the last 30+ years, I have lived within sight of one of the largest lead reclamation smelter in Texas. It was closed down recently due to over-stated fears of lead contamination.

With the concern over lead toxicity, I have been tested many times. Both blood (current exposure) and hair (cumulative exposure) have not shown any significant results. Most tests are negative. The ones that are positive are at threshold of the test to detect lead. And subsequent tests come back negative.

I am not suggesting you start snorting primer dust, but I am suggesting my own experience strongly suggests that even in a lead-saturated environment, protecting yourself from the danger may not call for radical action.
 
Lots of people here with more background than mine... Couple comments:

Smokers are apparently more susceptible to lead damage than the rest of us. And transferring lead from hand to cigarette is a double whammy.

High levels of ascorbic acid are reputed to bind to lead and escort it out of the body. Drink your grapefruit juice.

Mercury is in the same general family as lead, and most people think nothing of having silver-mercury amalgam fillings in their teeth. And if you have them, the right analytical equipment will detect mercury in your breath. I go to a dentist that studied in Canada and does not buy in to the ADA line about them being safe.

I do carefully wash my hands after handling lead, and do go to an indoor range that takes ventilation seriously. That's the balance I strike.
 
I should probably also mention that lead exposure in adults can affect every one of the body's organ systems, especially the nervous system, but also the bones and teeth, the kidneys, and the cardiovascular, immune, reproductive systems, hearing loss and tooth decay. See Wikipedia.

Even though I have lived within sight of a lead smelter for 30+ years:
  • My organs are all functioning properly,
  • I have Multiple Sclerosis (MS), but it not associated with lead and I have no other nervous system problems.
  • My bones are sound.
  • My teeth are sound. In fact, when I was a child, 24 of my teeth required major restorative dental work. Since I moved next to the lead smelter, I have had no major dental work. I did have to have one filling replaced, but that was because I chomped down on a piece of bone that had been left in a rice dish.
  • My kidneys continue to operate with normal parameters.
  • My heart remains sound even though I have a Body Mass Index of 43.
  • My immune system is sound. The generally accepted view of MS is that it is autoimmune disease, but after developing MS and seeking non-standard treatment, I went from having 6-8 sinus infections per year to having two in the last decade.
  • With respect to my "reproductive system", all I can say is that I have two sons even though my wife had poly-cystic ovarian disease and we were told when we married that due to her diminished fertility we would not have children.
  • My hearing is better than average for a 60+ year old male.
And even being a reloader and living downwind of a lead smelter, I still have none of the symptoms of lead toxicity. My experience may not the same as yours.
 
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