Learning about Double Rifles

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Ole Humpback

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I'm much more of a shotgunner and smaller game person, but as my dad gets more in touch with his younger hunting roots and I become more experienced, we've began talking about hunting elk, moose, and black bear. My dad has got himself his prefered elk/moose gun in his 358 Winchester and I'm planning on getting myself something in or around 30-06 for elk/moose. Neither of us though feel that either of those rounds is good enough for bear. I do understand that any round either of us choose is one that we need to be comfortable with and can shoot very well in any circumstance.

However, he feels that we'd both need 44 Mag handguns for bear in case the rifle we hunt it with doesn't take it down on the first shot and it ends up charging us. I personally don't like using handguns, I've only shot two and they were ok, but I know that I'm far better with a long gun. I'd personally want a double rifle, but that is based only on watching TV and not any personal experience.

This is why I've come here to learn about large caliber rifles for large/dangerous game and in specific the double rifle. I don't know much about rifle rounds beyond whats good for deer/elk and nothing about bear/dangerous game rifles. Things I'd like to know are:

What kind of cartridge is good for bear/dangerous game?
What are the pros/cons of a double rifle?
Who makes double rifles?
How much do they cost?
Anything else that is pertinent or of value to a novice like me for hunting large/dangerous game

I know I've rambeled on, but I figured that this is one time where OTJT is a bad idea. A lot easier to ask questions now than after the bear mauls me.
 
OH, it's my understanding that the least expensive double rifle is north of 10K. Our member H&H Hunter uses one (Kreigoff?) for African game. FWIW, IMHO the double is a hundred (-) yard rifle, due to the sights. If I were going bear hunting (as opposed to guiding a bear hunt), the .375 in a CRF (controlled round feed) like the Mauser/M70/03 Springfield/CZ with a low magnification scope (1.5x5, 2x7, 2.5x8) would be my first choice. The double is good for stopping big game before it eats you or your clients, but gives up a lot of versatility on this side of the Atlantic.

Another of our posters was badly mauled by a bear while he was carrying a rifle. Handguns are great things to have, but they are not magic. :)
 
"...and it ends up charging us..." Forget the handgun. No handgun cartridge will help and you'll never be fast enough. Use the rifle and shoot again. Mind you, if Yogi is within 100 yards, you better be able to break his shoulders or neck, fast. He can cover 100 yards in less than 6 seconds.
"...cartridge is good for bear/dangerous game..." There is no 'dangerous game' in North America. Your .30-06 will kill any game you care to hunt. You must learn how to shoot it and practice with your hunting ammo. Practice shooting, off hand, at 100 yards, on a 9" pie plate until you can hit it every time. Then you'll be ready to hunt.
"...least expensive double rifle is north of 10K..." They start at around 7 to 8 grand US.
A net search will turn up lots of sites selling double rifles.
 
Use time instead of money

Take the time to practice operating the rifles you have.
Buying another firearm would only complicate your hunting.
Learn to keep you rifle shouldered while you operate its action.
Learn to maintain a good sight picture while you operate the action.
The time spent learning to shoot a handgun accurately could be used to becoming a very proficient operator of a rifle.
 
For black bear, the .30-06 and .358 are more than enough. For larger bear, I like the .338 Win Mag. The double comes into its own in larger calibers for african game. I'm partial to the .450/400 nitro express, but there is certainly nothing wrong with larger calibers. Sabatti is making a double which is available in the US through Cabela's and other sources for $4000 and up. This rifle received a very favorable review in "Gun Tests" magazine a couple of months back. There's a lot of talk about it on the accurate reloading forum, and it is somewhat controversial there mostly due to the method of regulation (altering the crowns) used on some of these rifles.

gary
 
THe Valmet 512 can be bought with double rifle barrles at a reasonable price and you can also add 12 ga barrels and have a very nice do it all gun. It is available in 9.3X74R which is very close to the .375 Holland and Holland and the barrels can be regulated by the owner for the owners load very easily. The iron sight are decent and scope mopunts are also available. I shoot one in 9.3X74R and it is a sweetheart.
 
The traditional double offers two shots as fast as you can pull the trigger. They are beautiful and elegant. They can be chambered in just about any desired caliber as there is no magazine, feed rails, etc to worry about.

The biggest drawback is the cost. A nice box-lock double will run $3,500 - $10,000 and the truly deluxe side-lock models can go into the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

A good bolt gun in .416 or .458 can be had for $1,000 - $1,500. The Ruger #1 is fast handling and available in some serious calibers but you only get one shot between loadings.

I have never hunted Africa and never will. But I like guns so just for fun I have acquired rifles that would be appropriate for dangerous game hunting, including one double rifle that I bought 35 years ago because it was there and I really wanted it. Great fun to shoot. The 375 NE would work for thin-skinned animals.

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The 375 H&H is often said to be the best all around African caliber. IMO too light for buffalo.

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The 458 Win is OK, but something with a bit more velocity works better. The #1 can be had in 416, 458 Lott (lengthened 458W) and other big bruisers.

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About 25 years ago I had this built from a Rem Model 30S. It's the 404 Jeffrey necked up to 458 and "improved" putting it midway between the 458W and the the 460 WBY.

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Sunray:

That's exactly what I planned to do. No matter what I decide to get, it'll be a couple months of shooting before I get comfy with it for hunting. I don't consider black bear to be dangerous, but not exactly safe like deer either.

earplug:

Going by what others have said, my dad wouldn't need to get another gun and he can shoot his gun just fine already. I however only have two guns I hunt with a 12ga and a 257 Roberts. The 12ga is too short ranged for anything beyond birds or mandatory slug states, and the 257 is too light for Elk at a decent range. I'd have to buy one more gun in order hunt elk/moose/bear. But your overall point is valid, I need to be able to shoot whatever it is that I decide on before I go hunting with it.

This is great information! Keep it coming!
 
It needs to be said that, just because you're not hunting it, there is a likelihood you may encounter an animal that may do you harm. Having hunted and fished in CO, AK, WA, and PA, I have encountered one brown bear (Talkeetna, AK), one cougar (WA), one black bear (PA) and a pack of 6 coyotes in my neighborhood that adjoins a state park (CO). I have been fortunate and never been attacked, though I'm pretty sure the Brown Bear was laughing at my attempts at King Salmon fishing as he/she snatched a big one out of the river about 30 yards away and walked back into the woods.

FH

BTW, I feel well equipped hunting with either my .308 Win or my .30-06 bolt rifles anywhere I have been, though I admit if I spent much time in AK, I would probably go for something bigger, like a .338 Win or .375 Ruger or H&H.
 
What kind of cartridge is good for bear/dangerous game?
Click to expand...
In North America, the .30-06 or .358 Win is adequate for anything. If you're hunting brownies or grizzly in Alaska, you'll have a guide, and he'll carry a "fight stopper" -- most likely a .338 Mag or .375 H&H.

What are the pros/cons of a double rifle?
Click to expand...
Pros:
Eligant
Two quick shots
Designed for relatively short range use

Cons:
Expensive
Less rugged that bolt actions
Difficult to mount a scope

Who makes double rifles?
Click to expand...
They're mostly made in Britain and Germany.

How much do they cost?
Click to expand...
$10,000 and up.
Anything else that is pertinent or of value to a novice like me for hunting large/dangerous game
Click to expand...
I'd recommend getting a good bolt action in a caliber you can shoot well and practicing with it -- not from a bench, but from the standing, unsupported position.
 
Yes, Al but we have to hope they will do better actually delivering them this time.
EAA cataloged Baikal double rifles for years with few if any brought to market.
Remington picked up Baikal for a while, advertised the same double rifles, but actually sold few if any.
You can read about adventures with the few actually delivered on Accuratereloading.com and NitroExpress.com

Now the ball is back in EAA's court. I am sure they will sell a lot if they can get them out there. I don't know if the Russians can't deliver or if the US importers have somehow failed to follow through on a product they advertise.
 
Double rifles are close to useless in North America for hunting. It would be cool to have, but your grandpappy's old '03A3 can take most game in North America with the correct shot placement, and practice.

I know it seems like I'm repeating the other member's posts, but they are correct and have valid points that should be taken into consideration.

Now if you have money to spend, Africa to hunt, and would like a double rifle, go for it! It will cost you big time when you spend 10g's on it, realize the short distance capability, bust your shoulder, and run you $5 per shot.
 
This really is great info. I was already thinking that a BAR in 30-06 was what I was going to get, and for North America that is going to do just fine. But, seeing some decent double rifles in the $5k price range is awesome too. There is a possibility that I might go to Africa one day, and I wouldn't want to pass up a safari without a 9.3x74R double rifle. Is it highly probable that I'm going to Africa, right now the answer is no, but in a year or two the answer is maybe. Heck, I might even get one just to carry along when my Dad and I go bear hunting.

I understand range is an issue, but I'm the kind of person that if its beyond 150-200yds, chances are I'm going to let it pass. I love hunting, but hate dragging something back to the truck. Guess I need to get a game cart as well.
 
What kind of cartridge is good for bear/dangerous game?
What are the pros/cons of a double rifle?
Who makes double rifles?
How much do they cost?
Click to expand...

There is a difference between black bear and "dangerous game" - your 358 and 30-06 are fine for black bear. Dangerous game starts with big Brown bears, and water buffalo and goes up through elephant

Pro/con - Pro - 2 quick fast shots....Con - only 2 quick shots; cost; range - most dangerous game guns are regulated for somewhere around 60 yards.

Costs-some of the English, French, German. and Austrian guns can run from 8K to almost 600K with the majority running 15-35K. Browning makes a combo set that is 20 gauge and 30-06 - 2 sets of barrels in a case - can be had for the price of a nice AyA
 
I've been following another thread a couple above this one and someone made a good point about overlapping your current gun too much. My BLR 257 is plenty good for anything smaller than elk. The 30-06 would be good for the larger critters, but it'd also overlap the 257 a ton as well. Someone mentioned the 338 Win Mag as a good step up over their gun (a 270 Win currently) as it doesn't really overlap and gives them a better large game gun. Browning does make a BAR in 338 Win Mag, and after looking at the rounds avaliable for it, it would seem to be better suited for large game.

What do you guys think of a BAR in 338 Win Mag? It's pretty obvious that unless I'm hunting something like cape buffalo, a double rifle isn't needed (not ruling out the possible safari one day though).
 
Hmmm, we must remember that not all double rifles have been chambered for elephant stompers. A great many have been built in useful cartridges like .303British, .30-30 and some of the small bore Rigby cartridges. There is absolutely no reason why a double can't be used to 150yds if it is well-regulated and I cannot remember ever shooting a deer past that mark. Many are also equipped with claw scope mounts, in addition to their express sights. There are some of us morons who actually hunt with muzzleloaders, handguns and archery equipment and don't take shots beyond 100yds. So how that makes a double rifle "useless" is a little puzzling.


No handgun cartridge will help and you'll never be fast enough.
Click to expand...
This is simply untrue and has been proven in the field time and time again. The fact that some are still ignorant of what can be accomplished with handguns is no surprise.


There is no 'dangerous game' in North America.
Click to expand...
Brown bears, polar bears??? Pound for pound the mountain lion is the toughest cat on the planet. Yet no one questions the "danger" in hunting leopard.
 
Hmmm, we must remember that not all double rifles have been chambered for elephant stompers. A great many have been built in useful cartridges like .303British, .30-30 and some of the small bore Rigby cartridges. There is absolutely no reason why a double can't be used to 150yds if it is well-regulated
Click to expand...

Well, yeah. But for the cost of one double rifle, you could have several bolt actions that would be regulated out to 300 yards and beyond.
 
My 2 cents, I own a number of double rifles.calibers range from 256 Mannlicher(6.5x53R) to 475#2. 9.3x74R I have 2, one, a pre-war Krieghoff that is now fitted with a Leupold scope. Originally it had a Zeiss but was retired for more reliable optics. This rifle is very capable of taking game at 200 yards. Another 9.3 is made by Renato Menagon. Open sights and while it will take game to 150 yards my eyes are not what they once were. I limit my shooting with that rifle to the 50 &80 meter sight leaves. A vintage H&H sidelock in 450-400 2 3/8" Nitro for BP express (essentially a 40-82 Win.) is a fine shooter out to 100yds. While it has very optomistic sight leaves out to 300 yards, I have a hard enough time seeing the target at 100. The 6.5x53R E.M. Reilly is a superbly accurate light double built in the late 20's and sports a new Leupold in place of it's original Henzolt optics. The 475#2NE is made by Wm. Evans and at 11.5 pounds it isn't a mountain rifle. A Wm Jeffries in 450-400 3" that has accounted for a lot of whitetails. I also have an unmarked German (Suhl proofs)guild double in 8.15x 46R. Great deer gun. I have owned others and will probably own a few more. One thing they all have in common is they are hunted or shot on a fairly regular basis. They can be pricey. I shoot double rifle events at Vintager shoots and hunt with them thats what they were made for. If you shop around the speciality shops and auctions they can be "affordable". Don't expect MOA groups and learn the limitations of the individual rifle and can be fun and challenging to hunt with. I have taken bear, elk, whitetails, caribou and hogs with them. It can be very satisfying to take a whitetail at open sight range with a vintage rifle that otherwise might be a safe queen. Look them over and you will appreciate the workmanship and skill that went into creating these unique rifles. The popular calibers, tubes with big holes in the end, will be expensive. But smaller or lesser known rounds and boxlock actions will keep the prices reasonable. English makers will command a premium price in most cases. German or continental makers usually (not always ) will be more affordable. the metric calibers can keep the price down also but be prepared to handload and that is a whole 'nuther subject when it comes to double rifles. You only go this way once, treat yourself.
 
Bison are pretty dangerous too...bigger than a Cape Buffalo, not as aggressive, but they are killers if you piss them off.
 
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