Learning about Double Rifles

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Well, I settled my debate on what large/dangerous game round to look for in a rifle. As others have pointed out, having too many hunting guns is bad and I agree. My thought of a 338 BAR & 416 Model 70 isn't a good one. However, H&H Hunter along with your input Maverick have pointed to a great combination solution: a CRF Model 70 Winchester Safari Express in 375 H&H Mag. The cartridge can be loaded light enough for large North American game and heavy enough to be legal in Africa. That'd be a perfect compliment to my 257 Roberts. Varmints to large deer/light elk with the 257 Roberts and elk to cape buffalo with the 375 H&H.

Thanks all for the information & education.
 
Splendid choice, Ole Humpback. Like you say, you can load it "light" with a 225gr SP for light game, moderate loads with a 260gr. BTs (which have a pretty dang good BC for decent range) for a little more range on large game, a heavy load with a 300gr A-frame for the biggest NA has to offer, or a stout load and a 350gr Woodleigh solid for anything that walks this little green planet. I really like my Whitworth Express Mauser (my favorite hunting rifle), but I sure wouldn't turn up my nose at a CRF M-70 (that would without question be my second choice).

As others have pointed out, having too many hunting guns is bad and I agree.
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I see your point, but I have to agree with HOOfan_1 on this one. I like to have one rifle set up for pretty much every species (that I hunt) and style of hunting (that I engage in, or plan to). Nothing wrong with a do-all, but it doesn't seem to do everything as well as something else might (it is a compromise).

:)
 
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I just read this whole thread. OMG! I shoot a Searcy .470 PH grade not a Krieghoff!! What's wrong with you people??:D;)

BTW

100 yards and in for a double rifle is an old wives tale. I pick off stuff at 150 and 200 yards all the time.

That close range stuff is in reference to a doubles superiority in close on fast moving heavies. A well regulated double will put bullets any place you want them with a bit of practice just like any other rifle.

I love to ring the 500 yard gong out at the local range with my .470 NE. It's like anything else you just have to know where to hold. I mean jeeze guys Shiloh shooters lob 500 grain lead bullets into buff silhouettes at 1,000 yards all the time. They are starting a BP load at the muzzle at about 1300 FPS.

A .470 is pushing either a round nosed or spitzer of the same weight at 2150 FPS. Once you get your elevation figured barrel cross over is so slight at 200 yards as to not even worry about it. At 500 it becomes a factor but isn't nearly as radical as you'd think.

A scooped light double such as the before mentioned Chapuis 9.3X74 is an easy 300 yard game rifle.

PS

You made a fine choice on the M-70. I am not advocating that you run out and buy a double only that there is a lot of misunderstanding in regards to what they are, how much they cost, and what they are capable of.
 
H&H, since you dropped in...I have a Sabatti Double on my list (pretty far down...but there)....500NE or .470NE for a stopping rifle (for Elephant)? Any comments/cautionary statements/recommendations on the rifle choice?

:)
 
The way those Sabatti's are regulated would (and did) keep me from buying one... I think you better check them out real good before buying one...

DM
 
Maverick,

Stay away from the Sabatti. They are not worth the $5000. They literally grind one side of the muzzle crown down including rifling from the muzzle end to get them to "regulate". Champlins among other reputable double rifle shops won't even work on them anymore as they are just to cheesy and cheaply made.

If you have double rifle fever save your money up and get a nice entry level rifle in the 8K to 12K range I see used Chapuis .470's for sale all the time in 9k range. You would be spending slightly lass than twice the money for 100 times the rifle.

That is iof you have to have a stopping double of you want medium double that is capable of hunting everything in NA and most everything in Africa get a brand new Chapuis UGEX 9.3x74R for $4600.


Why you shouldn't waste your money on a Sbatti......

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/760101804/m/7181032251

This a factory "modification" in an attempt to regulate this Sabatti. NO thank you I'll save up my money and buy a real double!!
Sabatticrown.jpg

Here is where you can buy new Chapauis 9.3's

http://www.kebcollc.com/cart/store.php?crn=226&rn=406&action=show_detail
 
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Well, I wasn't saying having TOO MANY guns was a bad thing:D Rather, having one gun for each class of game is kinda overkill. Sure, it'd be nice, but if one gun can field two classes pretty handlely why not get it and save some money for another gun (ie FS2000, Shilo Sharps 1863, H&K USC). It took me 6 months or so to get my 257 sighted in to where I want it. But after not having shot it in 6yrs, I picked it up the other day and shot the edges off a paper plate with leisure at 100yds. I'm in the boat of just wanting a few hunting guns to do all my hunting with. Heck, I can do all my hunting with my shotgun as long as I'm inside 75yds of the target.
 
Thank you for the informative, albeit somber, information DM~ & H&Hhunter. The Sabatti has been stricken from the list (don't need an $5k egg shaped bore), and a proper double added a bit lower on said list (very likely a Chapuis, as you recommend). The .375H&H Mauser will serve all my needs in NA and up to Buff in the dark continent...if and when I buy a double i'll end up with a proper stopping chambering. So, with that in mind, what say ye....470NE or .500NE?

:)
 
An 8 Bore fully rifled Rodda should do the job...of course if you think that is too light you can drop down to a 4 bore.

I have a nice 9.3 double now but I am really intrigued with the Baikal double rifle in 45/70. With barrels that can be regulated by the shooter it should be a fun US large game gun. Not to mention big boars in brush and wild range bulls in the cane breaks.
 
A 450 would be a good choise, and it uses .458" bullets, to me that's a big advantage. Personally, i like the 450/400, but it's borderline as a "stopping" cartridge for the bigger DG...

DM
 
I'm kind curious what the smallest size is for a large DG round. Seems to me a 375H&H can stop a cape buffalo just fine, but I wouldn't count on it for anything bigger than that. If your shooting something bigger & more dangerous than a cape buffalo, what round would be the minimum kill round?
 
A 450 would be a good choise, and it uses .458" bullets, to me that's a big advantage. Personally, i like the 450/400, but it's borderline as a "stopping" cartridge for the bigger DG...
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Don't want something that light (something that I never anticipated saying), as this double would likely be dedicated to stopping a charging elephant. That said, I do not want a .577NE or .600NE and it goes without saying that I have absolutely no interest in something ridiculous like a .577T-Rex or .700NE.

I'm kind curious what the smallest size is for a large DG round. Seems to me a 375H&H can stop a cape buffalo just fine, but I wouldn't count on it for anything bigger than that. If your shooting something bigger & more dangerous than a cape buffalo, what round would be the minimum kill round?
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The smallest legal DG cartridge in most locales is the 9.3x64mmBrenneke (not to be confused with the 9.3x62mmMauser or 9.3x74mmR), which is just shy of the venerable .375H&H but a bit smaller bore diameter and suitable for standard length actions. For anything larger a .416cal or larger is usually recommended and a proper stopping rifle should be .458cal or greater.

:)
 
As a dedicated elephant gun a .500 NE fits the bill very nicely. Anything else in the thick skinned DG realm a .470 or .450 class rifle fits the bill just right. This being a stopping rifle.
 
Don't know much about it, but that Blaser is a fine looking rifle and I like the fact that it is available in .500NE. How much will it set one back?

From what I have heard, they are a pretty nice rifle, though their R-8 bolt guns have had some catastrophic failures in the past (IIRC this was due to a, since resolved, issue with a part that had a tendency to corrode and fail).

:)
 
I never could understand the high prices on many of the double rifles. My gunsmith, who sadly passed away some years ago, built a half dozen doubles starting with Merkel 20 gauge shotguns. All were chamber for the 45-120 and were regulated to shoot 1 inch apart at 100 yards. He milled his own ribs and sights and the ribs were scope ready. When asked how he regulated the barrels he simply said "ain't ya'll heard of computers?". He was also the gun smith who built my 375/338 Browning BAR Safari so I could gain an edge in our Ernest Hemingway Memorial Shoot. A .375 H&H equivalent in a semi-auto was nearly declared cheating...lol.
 
Going by what Gunbroker is listing, about $11k for a 500NE.
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That's not too shabby, though I would wait to here from our resident expert (H&H) before bidding. ;)

Just noticed that it has "free floating bbls"...wonder how they managed that? Seems like a novel idea...if they got it right, that is.

I never could understand the high prices on many of the double rifles. [...] When asked how he regulated the barrels he simply said "ain't ya'll heard of computer?".
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I don't understand why the prices hasn't dropped, as laser bore sighting tools are fairly common today and would seemingly take much of the guess-work out of regulation...after all most SxS scatterguns are remarkably cheap by comparison.

:)
 
Free floating means the barrels are not soldered togther but use a wedge system which allows the owner to regulate the barrels to a specific load, same as the Valmet 412 and the new Baikals.
 
After having seen a Baikal double, that doesn't sound nearly as appealing. I certainly hope Blaser's execution is a bit better (in other words, not having room for a third barrel between the two ;)).
 
I retract my previous statement, it looks much better than the Baikal (it should be!), and affords the owner to regulate the bbls to whatever load they desire (a nice feature).

:)
 
This whats the range of a double rifle talk is unnecessary. Shooting at
dangerous game, unless its already wounded, at long range is considered
very bad form. A gut shot moose is one thing, a mad at the world Grizz hiding in the alders quite another.
 
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