Lee Classic Turret vs. Lee Classic Cast Breech Lock

[labnoti]

I recently acquired a Lee Classic Cast, and now a Lee Classic Turret. I have been priming and powder charging off the press with a RCBS Universal Hand Primer and Lee Deluxe Perfect PM, but I wanted to see how much time the LCT could save by combining the resize and flare, and the seat and factory crimp operations. The LCT cost me $105, about $17 less than the Cast. The shop will let me return whichever one I don't want to keep.

Edit: I had a lot of trouble with the auto indexing feature but was finally able to adjust it so it worked consistently.

Starting with deprimed and clean brass, using the single stage press, I could load 111 rounds in an hour. Using the LCT, 150. Now I know some people are going to say they load 200 or whatever, but remember I am taking the shells off to prime, drop powder, and set the bullets. I am not comparing my rates to yours but to my own. I am not racing, but I am interested in eliminating inefficiencies that don't add value.

I could hand-prime all the cases before I put them in the press to resize and flare. But how can I try powder charging on the press? Will the Deluxe PPM work with the Auto Disk Riser? I know it's hand-crank only, but can I mount it to dump through the die, or does it need its own spot on the Turret? Given how loose the red powder cylinder is, I'm not sure I want to sling it around on the turret anyway.

I have some doubt there are a lot of further efficiencies to be gained at this point with a turret. At best I could eliminate one process placing and removing shells in the shell-holder, and I would double the complexity of the sequence of operations in a repetition. If I don't make any mistakes, I could cut 15 to 20 minutes at best from loading 200 cartridges.

One thing I don't care for with the LCT is the vertical slop in the turret. I guess it doesn't matter for decapping, resizing, or flaring. For bullet seating and crimping it is sloppy, but perhaps the slop is always the same amount.

Reading about the Auto Breech Lock Pro, I think I would like it but I'd have to keep the LCT or LCC for rifle.

 

[Bang!]

On break and on my phone so will hit a couple of high points for now.

The “slop” isn’t slop and it is the same every time. Will not have a negative effect on your reloading.

The LCT is an excellent press. Setup correctly, it is much faster than the single stage. All functions can be reliably, and consistently performed. Including priming and powder drops. Only handling the brass to put it on the ram, use ejector to remove, saves a lot of time.

I started with the Classic Cast Breechlock Single Stage and moved up to the LCT to reload faster. Just wanted a new toy if truth be told. LCT is faster but wasn’t fast enough. Then moved up to the Loadmaster. After a few months with it the LCT fell out of favor. No longer had a use for it. The Single Stage was used for all rifle and the Loadmaster for all pistol. If not for the need of volume reloading, and if I only had one press it would be the LCT. The LCT is an excellent press and easy to set up your bench for many calibers without breaking the bank. If you think you will need more volume in the future, and since you’re experiencing difficulties getting the hang of the LCT, I would go with the single stage.

The LCT is a simple press. I’m sure you can get the hang of it. Especially with all the help you can get here on THR. If you don’t think you’ll move to more volume in the future then go with the LCT. That press is a bargain and a rare example of getting more than you pay for.

I even had to move up to the Hornady LnL and then move on up to the Dillon XL650. So, consider the future needs.

Good luck.

 

[someguy2800]

I would send yours back to lee to have them fix the indexing, that is not at all normal.

Your not going to save much time doing it the way you are doing it. To really optimize the efficiency of the turret you have to prime on the press and use all four stations in series, and use an automated powder drop on top of the expander die such as the auto drum powder measure. If your not going to do that then its not going to save much time. If you do those additional things though I promise you it will be significantly more efficient than a singe stage. Try tumbling your brass with the primers in and reload them in one shot. It works great.

And yes, the vertical movement of the turret head is not an issue. The top of the turret dead stops against the inside of turret holder so its the same position every time.

 

[labnoti]

I edited my post as I was finally able to solve the auto-indexing issue. Really it only took another 10 minutes of working on it. I guess the new day helped.

With auto-indexing, I was considering buying a second set of dies so I could operate 1-2, eject, 1-2 eject. After powder and bullets away from the press, load a second turret and 3-4, eject, 3-4, eject.

If I were to load primed brass, and use an auto powder measure, I could use dies 1, 2, 3, 4 and an auto-ejector. I'm not sure I want to load large rifle cases that way, and if it's for handgun, the alternative would be an Auto Breech Lock Pro.

My volume is budgeted for ~650/month and will not exceed 1000/month. The break-even on a well-equipped Dillon is too far in the future, and it would be less convenient for load development.

 

[ATLDave]

The time savings with the LCT versus SS come with not handling the brass a bunch. If you're taking it off the press to charge or prime, you're defeating the purpose/strategy. The Lee Auto-Drum is a very, very good powder thrower on the press IME. And I even like the Auto-Disk.

Last weekend, I had the chance to shoot some .223 I loaded with Varget under 69 gr SMK's. On a breezy day in South Carolina and off bags/bench, that round printed a 5-shot group that was just under 1 MOA at 300 yards, and multiple sub-MOA groups at 150. Those rounds were loaded on my LCT, with charges thrown on the press by an Auto Disk. New brass, so no trimming needed. Cases went on the press raw, came off as finished rounds. Take that FWIW.

And with pistol brass, I never, ever load any way other than putting a tumbled, but otherwise unprocessed, case in the shell holder. Resize and deprime in one step, charge/flare in the next, seat bullet next, FCD next. I've loaded many tens or hundreds of thousands of rounds this way. The priming arm on the LCT is very, very good. No need to separately prime, much less throw powder off press.

 

[Bang!]

I edited my post as I was finally able to solve the auto-indexing issue. Really it only took another 10 minutes of working on it. I guess the new day helped.

With auto-indexing, I was considering buying a second set of dies so I could operate 1-2, eject, 1-2 eject. After powder and bullets away from the press, load a second turret and 3-4, eject, 3-4, eject.

If I were to load primed brass, and use an auto powder measure, I could use dies 1, 2, 3, 4 and an auto-ejector. I'm not sure I want to load large rifle cases that way, and if it's for handgun, the alternative would be an Auto Breech Lock Pro.

My volume is budgeted for ~650/month and will not exceed 1000/month. The break-even on a well-equipped Dillon is too far in the future, and it would be less convenient for load development.

That would be 4000 pulls on the handle plus all the extra off press processing in between. That would get old quick. You may want to consider a progressive press.

 

[ATLDave]

That would be 4000 pulls on the handle plus all the extra off press processing in between. That would get old quick. You may want to consider a progressive press.

Or, barring that, using the LCT as designed, with on-press priming and charging.

 

[Bolson]

I prime off the press, but I do it in batches. I always have several hundred primed cases ready to go. Everything else gets done on the LCT.. except decapping of course. Its what works for me.

 

[ATLDave]

I have no doubt it works. It adds a bunch of time (that you aren't "feeling" as extra time, because you discount it for whatever reason). But I'm sure it works.

 

[GT1]

The LCT can handle most any rifle you might want to put in the shell holder.
If I choose the O frame it would be the original non-breech lock version. That one has the in-ram primer disposal, and one can slap a hornady quick change bushing conversion kit right in that one if that is a thing for you.

 

[Bolson]

Never said it didn't add time and I'm not discounting anything. It's simply how I prefer to do it. I enjoy it, so it's not wasted time.

 

[ATLDave]

Gotcha. The op said he was looking to save time by avoiding inefficiencies that don’t add value. Of course, if you just happen to LIKE doing something, that’s not an inefficiency!

 

[Bolson]

Fair enough. If op is happy with hand priming, then adding one of the two powder drops you mentioned would improve his efficiency... I guess was the point I failed to make.

 

[Dudedog]

Turret will be faster and more flexible, but I would decide which one to keep based on what I load the most.
If I was mostly doing large rifle (bigger than .223) I would probably keep the SS, more pistol or .223 the turret.
Without changing the priming off press (I like to as well, do it while watching TV)
I would say take the index rod out of the turret and deprime/resize all the brass, then prime up a bunch while watching the news, sports etc, just get them all primed.
No wasted movement going back and forth between the hand primer and the press.when loading.
Get a Lee Autodrum (I don't see if the OP said he has Lee dies or not, if they are Lee dies he has the powder thru expander, otherwise he will need one) (I have an Autodrum and an Pro Autodisk, disk is ok if it throws the charge you want, drum is nicer) ~$35
Load the primed brass. So now you have one or 2 extra handle pulls, 1 powder, 2 bullet, 3 FCD (if you want it)
In this case I might be tempted to leave the index rod out and advance the turret by hand.
Probably faster than the extra handle pulls.
I broke my last plastic advance piece, no spare......aaarrhh, ordered some but advanced the turret by hand waiting for them to arrive. Got used to doing it and never put one back in (Old 3 hole Deluxe turret)
I found since I have to put a bullet on the case it didn't waste much time moving the turret by hand.

I haven't used it or seen one in person but maybe return both and get the new little Lee progressive.
Run all the brass thru and resize/deprime.
Hand prime whenever (since you want to) but I would still prime all the brass before loading, no fiddling with the hand primer while loading = faster


Station
1 powder expand
2 seat bullet
3 FCD (if you want)
4 empty (no completely wasted handle pull, press is doing 3 other things)
or
1 powder
2 lockout die, tube type bullet feeder (Hornady, Mr Bullet etc) - Yes Lee makes one that does not use a station but it looks "fiddly" to me but may work great.
3 seat bullet
4 FCD (if you want)

Of course with either priming on press would speed things up.

For pistol I like to do a quick clean onmy brass, maybe 30 minutes in the wet tumbler, then resize/deprime it on my LNL, then run it again for about an hour. Clean primer pockets probably don't make that much difference
but clean brass makes me
I then hand prime and inspect the cases while watching TV, listening to music etc. (sort out the SP .45s here for priming later if I am doing LP 45s, toss 9mm with the ridge or any cases I don't like for some reason)
I store the primed brass in Sterilite plastic 7qt containers, but the primed cases could be stored in lots of things., zip lock bag, plastic coffee cans, nut jars, etc.

 

[labnoti]

I'm going to try the Auto Drum and priming on the LCT. I'll have a result by the weekend.
I will certainly decap and wet tumble before I begin to load. I cannot bear dirty primer pockets. I've also learned to dry the brass. Really dry the brass. I learned even a little water can be ruinous. Now I'm tumbling in corncob after wet tumbling. It assures there is no hidden dampness and I like the lubricity it adds. I'll see if I like priming on the press or if I like hand priming better. I could do that prior putting the brass on the press, as I've pulled the decapping rod from my resizing die.
I think I'm going to pass on the new Lee progressive. At least with the LCT, I can still do rifle. I'm hoping to do a low volume of something like .243. Maybe 100 rds/month. I don't have the rifle yet and I haven't decided.

 

[someguy2800]

Are you using a universal decapping thing like the frankford arsenal handheld decaper to decap them? If that's the case then just keep decaping and we tumbling if that's what you prefer, then do all 4, size, flare/charge, seat, and crimp in one shot. Hand prime or prime on the press, whichever you prefer. You could do the hand decaping and hand priming watching TV or sitting on the porch.

I will say I have the new lee auto breechlock pro and I've ran 1000 rounds of 9mm through it. The nice thing about that press is if you put the case feeder and case collator on it, you can just dump brass in the case collator and just crank the handle to run them through into a bucket, so you could run them through once to decap them, then run them through again to load them and never touch the brass. I only dry tumble so I load in one step and I do 400 rounds an hour of 9mm. Its not going to be an efficient press for doing any rifle larger than 223, so I am keeping my turret for that. I have 3 presses and swap them out for what they do best. The turrett will do all my hunting rifle ammo or low volume stuff, the progressive for 9mm, 38, 357, and 223, and I do 6.5x284 on my single stage.

 

[Dudedog]

Hot where I am in the summer so they dry quick. I use wash and wax and it seems to help them dry quicker. Tumble drain off water, roll around in old towel, move to dry towel in the sun when its warm other wise on the towel in a room out of the way.
Inside maybe a whole day to be sure they are dry, outside in the sun when it's 105+ seems like it takes 15 minutes
(sometime almost to hot to touch if they get direct sun)
Hope it works out for you I think you will like the autodrum.

 

[ar-newbie]

everyone has their preferences. Personally, my brass prep is something I consider critical for rifle precision.
My routine is universal deprime on my rock chucker, done in a large batch.
Then it's off to the tumbler for cleaning
Once cleaned, it's sized on the rock chucker in a large batch.
At this point I do all of my brass inspection, primer pocket cleaning, flash hole uniforming, and for rifle rounds run them through the quick trim die on the rock chucker
Final inspection and checking necks for dimension and concentricity, if needed turn necks
Hand priming
Finally, to the classic turret for powder drop, set bullets and seat, and crimp if needed.

This isn't as fast as doing it all on the turret, but my rounds are extremely accurate and I like it that way.

After seeing my process, you would think why bother with a turret? Well, the answer to that question is dropping powder, setting and seating and crimping on the turret does make those steps go really quickly.

 

[Varminterror]

I’m with the others here:

1) the vertical slop is consistent, such as long as you cam over the same every stroke, the end result is consistent.

2) you’re pushing your car to work, then saying it’s not faster to take a car to work than walk. Get in and drive!! Use your turret press like a turret instead of like a single stage and you’ll be a lot faster, and far more efficient in production.

Another use a lot of guys may overlook for the LCT is precision reloading. I deprime on a single stage, tumble/ultrasonic, then I body size, neck size, and expand the neck in 3 pulls of the handle. Then I seat primers on a Bald Eagle bench primer, charge with a pair of Chargemasters, then seat bullets in an arbor press. Each individual die in my system cost more than the LCT, but it does run a LOT faster to body size, neck size, and expand without ever taking the cartridge from the shell holder. Even against the quick change Co-ax, the LCT lets me load considerably faster.

 

[thomas15]

The inquiry:

Reading about the Auto Breech Lock Pro, I think I would like it but I'd have to keep the LCT or LCC for rifle.

The decision:

I think I'm going to pass on the new Lee progressive. At least with the LCT, I can still do rifle. I'm hoping to do a low volume of something like .243. Maybe 100 rds/month. I don't have the rifle yet and I haven't decided.

And there you have it folks. Sounds good to me.

 

[GT1]

I think I'm going to pass on the new Lee progressive. At least with the LCT, I can still do rifle.

The breech lock pro was brought out for pistol and small rifle. When I saw the lightly made handle and toggle linkage it was obvious it wasn't ever going to do any large rifle loading. It isn't going to make any happy LCT users give up their turret for it, not me for sure.

I expect the pro-1000 will soon be a thing of the past.

 

[1KPerDay]

If you are truly interested in eliminating inefficiencies as you say, then there's no substitute for charging and seating on the press in a "semi progressive" mode on the LCT. Get a pro auto disc or auto drum PM and run it like it was intended. I would be interested to hear your round count per hour simply by removing the three "off press" operations you're performing. Priming, charging, and seating on the press will DRAMATICALLY speed up your process and IMO there's no real downside.

I can load 6 rounds per minute easily and up to 7-8 if I hustle. This is on the LCT I'm talking about.

I also agree that the breech Lock Pro isn't going to woo happy LCT or Pro 1000 owners. It has the advantages of progressive loading but the "disadvantage" of the safety prime system. I actually like the safety prime and if I didn't already have an LCT I'd consider the BLP.

 

[thomas15]

I can load 6 rounds per minute easily and up to 7-8 if I hustle. This is on the LCT I'm talking about.

AMAZING!!!

Assuming 9mm handloads...

6 rounds per minute is 360 rounds per hour. That is 1440 pulls of the handle or 1 pull every 2.5 seconds.

7 rounds per minute is 420 rounds per hour. That is 1680 pulls of the handle or 1 pull every 2.14 seconds.

8 rounds per minute would yield 480 rounds per hour. That is 1920 pulls of the handle or 1 pull every 1.87 seconds.

Without a case or bullet feeder but with pre-filling 5 primer pick up tubes, using brass and bullet trays located as close and convenient as possible and a finished bullet tray that holds 300 rounds, if I hustle on my LNL progressive, I would get 480 maybe a tad more rounds per hour. This works out to be 485 pulls of the handle or 1 pull every 7.42 seconds.

Would it be possible for you to explain this?

 

[1KPerDay]

Assuming 9mm handloads.

6 rounds per minute is 360 rounds per hour. That is 1440 pulls of the handle or 1 pull every 2.5 seconds.

7 rounds per minute is 420 rounds per hour. That is 1680 pulls of the handle or 1 pull every 2.14 seconds.

8 rounds per minute would yield 480 rounds per hour. That is 1920 pulls of the handle or 1 pull every 1.87 seconds.

Without a case or bullet feeder but with pre-filling 5 primer pick up tubes, using brass and bullet trays located as close and convenient as possible and a finished bullet tray that holds 300 rounds, if I hustle on my LNL progressive, I would get 480 maybe a tad more rounds per hour. This works out to be 485 pulls of the handle or 1 pull every 7.42 seconds.

Yes, but you have to figure some time lost lost every 100 rounds to load primers, the occasional check of powder charge, perhaps refilling the powder measure, adjusting the occasional flubbed bullet placement or primer placement, etc. I have timed and filmed myself several times loading 6 rpm consistently over 20 minute periods, but with the occasional interruptions and refilling components I average about 250-300 rounds per hour if I'm focusing, and if my kids are coming in to "help" then about 200 per hour. Also it helps that I use 3 dies for 9mm so I basically "short-stroke" the 4th station just enough to reset the auto-index linkage. 4 die sets are typically about 5 rounds per minute. (Plus time for refilling components as noted).

BTW I respect the High Road you exhibited by not blatantly calling me a liar. I neglected to qualify my 7-8 RPM claim with the RPH average and I thank you for allowing me the opportunity to do so. That is a much more accurate description of the round count one could expect to attain.

 

[1KPerDay]

For reference, start at 2:46


Actually completed 8 rounds in a minute; I completed the 8th while I was talking, before the time ran out.

But as noted above, the number one can load in a minute doesn't equate to n x 60 minutes = RPH. You can't keep that same pace for an hour. True progressives are MUCH faster.