Lee Factory Crimp Die

[ranger335v]

"He insists that the FCD should not be used when reloading lead bullets."

Web guru BS. The handgun FCD somply assures every round will chamber; if chambering every time, all the time, is no problem then it does't matter.

The FCD is just another tool in our arsenal; it either helps or 'hurts' depending on what an individual handgun or load needs and making a flat statement about what others need or don't need ignores the fact that we don't all need the same things.

There's a carbide sizing ring at the mouth of the FCD die. It's big enough that cartridges which are within SAMMI max cartridge diameter spec won't be touched by the ring, only those that are oversized will be affected. It's not necessary for lead bullets to be more than a thou over normal diameter for most barrels and that little bit will rarely - if ever - be touched by the FCD's post seating sizer but it's currently popular to use bullets much larger than needed. When fat bullets are pushed into thicker than normal cases the sizer ring WILL make sure the finished round will feed and chamber even in a snug chamber. SAMMI case and cartridge dimensions do not over lap but reloaders can surely change that by using fat bullets!Those of us with fat chambers obviously can use fat ammo with few problems but that fit is chance, not the specific dies used. Chambers MAY be as much as 10 thou over cartridge diameter but that's a tolerance range, it's not a goal.

"He recommends Lyman dies over the others."

Your guru is on much better ground with that. Actually, the only functional difference is Lyman's excellant dual-diameter "M" expander that makes it easy to sufficently expand case mouths to prevent bullet heel damage duting seating without excessively working the brass. Redding started copying the M a few years ago (and maybe RCBS too?) so I guess Lyman's patent protection has expired.

Lee's FCD for rifles is a totally different device. It's probably the best rifle crimper made but it has a moving part and that seems to buffalo some people.

 

[Sam1911]

It's not necessary for lead bullets to be more than a thou over normal diameter for most barrels and that little bit will rarely - if ever - be touched by the FCD's post seating sizer but it's currently popular to use bullets much larger than needed. When fat bullets are pushed into thicker than normal cases the sizer ring WILL make sure the finished round will feed and chamber even in a snug chamber.

When I run .431" diameter Missouri 200 gr. LRN bullets in Starline or Rem brass through my FCD, the carbide grabs like a vice and my whole bench (bolted into the wall on three sides, no less) shakes as I jam it in, and grabs again as I wrench it out again.

For what it is worth, it is quite smooth using .429" jacketed bullets.

But I don't consider .431" bullets "much larger" than needed for my 629, or almost any other .44 Mag/Spc firearm.

As it happens, I also have no problem EVER, ONCE, chambering one of my .44 Spc. or Mag. reloads, whether they went through the FCD or not. So, many thousands of rounds ago I took it out of the toolhead, put it on the bench, and it does a much better job of keeping dust from settling in that spot than it did post-sizing my ammo.

 

[Lost Sheep]

When I run .431" diameter Missouri 200 gr. LRN bullets in Starline or Rem brass through my FCD, the carbide grabs like a vice and my whole bench (bolted into the wall on three sides, no less) shakes as I jam it in, and grabs again as I wrench it out again.

For what it is worth, it is quite smooth using .429" jacketed bullets.

But I don't consider .431" bullets "much larger" than needed for my 629, or almost any other .44 Mag/Spc firearm.

As it happens, I also have no problem EVER, ONCE, chambering one of my .44 Spc. or Mag. reloads, whether they went through the FCD or not. So, many thousands of rounds ago I took it out of the toolhead, put it on the bench, and it does a much better job of keeping dust from settling in that spot than it did post-sizing my ammo.

You could knock the sizing ring out of the die or enlarge the ring's inner diameter. Or, leave it on the bench. The first two options do let you continue separating the seating and crimping operations, though.

It's all good.

"He insists that the FCD should not be used when reloading lead bullets."

Web guru BS. The handgun FCD simply assures every round will chamber; if chambering every time, all the time, is no problem then it does't matter.

The FCD is just another tool in our arsenal; it either helps or 'hurts' depending on what an individual handgun or load needs and making a flat statement about what others need or don't need ignores the fact that we don't all need the same things.

There's a carbide sizing ring at the mouth of the FCD die. It's big enough that cartridges which are within SAMMI max cartridge diameter spec won't be touched by the ring, only those that are oversized will be affected. It's not necessary for lead bullets to be more than a thou over normal diameter for most barrels and that little bit will rarely - if ever - be touched by the FCD's post seating sizer but it's currently popular to use bullets much larger than needed. When fat bullets are pushed into thicker than normal cases the sizer ring WILL make sure the finished round will feed and chamber even in a snug chamber. SAMMI case and cartridge dimensions do not over lap but reloaders can surely change that by using fat bullets!Those of us with fat chambers obviously can use fat ammo with few problems but that fit is chance, not the specific dies used. Chambers MAY be as much as 10 thou over cartridge diameter but that's a tolerance range, it's not a goal.
(edited for brevity)

The problem with lead bullets is that re-sizing the cartridge (and the bullet within) can sometimes compromise neck tension. It is worse with lead bullets than jacketed, apparantly and exhibited only with oversized bullets, particularly if the case walls are thick (if the cartridge is not oversized, the FCD post-sizing ring does not touch the case).

Then, when "gurus" with an incomplete understanding of what's going on put their "spin" on the issue.

Rule #10 in my "10 Advices for the Novice Handloader". Believe only half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you find from casual sources on the internet." Verify for yourself everything before you accept anything.

Lost Sheep

 

[Sam1911]

You could knock the sizing ring out of the die or enlarge the ring's inner diamete. Or, leave it on the bench. The first two options do let you continue separating the seating and crimping operations, though.

Of course, I could do that, but I don't want to. I don't care at all if I'm crimping in one step or two.

It's all good.

Indeed!

 

[Lost Sheep]

Your dimensions seem to be in very fine balance

What if the lead boolit is expanding the case to the point where it won't feed reliably in an auto? Having your dies set correctly does nothing to help that. That's what mine did. Even sizing down to .401, they wouldn't feed reliably in my .40. I suppose my Sig must have pretty tight tolerences. I got a Lee FCD and the problem is gone. It's still accurate too.

I have a Dan Wesson revolver like that. Oversized bullets will expand the case so that they won't chamber. The same cartridges would chamber in other .357 revolvers, though. My DW chambers were just a little on the small size. Gun is superbly accurate, though.

So, you might have to use brass with thinner walls. Or size the bullets down a little more (have you slugged your barrel and taken a chamber cast?). Or open the chamber up a little (I suspect your chamber, like my DW is on the small side of SAAMI specs).

Or, if you don't have bullet setback problems (neck tension is still good) count yourself blessed and proceed.

Lost Sheep

 

[Nevmavrick]

The FCD will size the lead bullet down so that it's undersize, and is more likely to lead the barrel. Accuracy will be affected adversely. If your accuracy-testing is done standing, one-handed, at 12', you may not be able to detect the smaller differences in accuracy. You MAY not notice differences in leading if you usually use factory made bullets. They are usually too small, too hard, and have too hard lube.
The use of an FCD with a revolver, is different from use with an auto case.
Many people tell me that everything is fine if you use a seat/crimp die in one stroke, and that is usually true for a revolver...with lead bullets.
With an auto, with lead bullets, it's better to use the die in two steps.
The guy who gave the advice was a BULLET GURU, not an INTERNET GURU!
He wasn't spinning anything, he was making a statement about certain circumstances...and he's right!
OK...now flame me.
And have fun,
Gene

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I have a Dan Wesson revolver like that. Oversized bullets will expand the case so that they won't chamber. The same cartridges would chamber in other .357 revolvers, though.

Same here. I had a Sigma 40VE and I didn't need to use the FCD. My dad's Hi-Point and my brother's G22 chamber them fine without it. I got the Sig and started having the trouble. Not that it's any trouble. A quick run through the FCD and they feed just fine. Accurate too, so I'm not complaining, just relaying the info.

 

[savanahsdad]

use this , use that , it don't work , it works for me .......I think the ones that say it's the way to go ,are useing the right bullet for it , however it is not the way to go for all lead bullets , hard cast bullets ok,, soft cast bullets not ok,
the best fix I found is to have a 5 hole press ,and use 2 seat dies 1 to seat and 2 for crimp, no extra work just an extra die

 

[LiveLife]

My comment is for straight walled semi-auto pistol caliber FCD use only, like 45ACP/40S&W/9mm

I load for tight chambered match barrels like Sig 1911 (45ACP) and Lone Wolf (40/9) and do not use FCD. I also seat and taper crimp in one step.

As verified by Lee Precision, FCD was meant to be used as a "finishing die" with jacketed diameter bullets to ensure finished rounds would reliably feed/chamber in SAAMI spec barrels/chambers. Why use a finishing die? Depending on the bullet manufacturer/QC, bullets you use may be "out of round" and finished rounds' outside dimensions may not allow reliable feeding/chambering in SAAMI spec chambers. FCD's carbide sizing ring will help these out-of-spec rounds. I use Winchester, Remington, Montana Gold jacketed bullets and Speer Gold Dot plated bullets and do not need to use the FCD as rounds coming out of my Lee combination seater/taper crimp die feed/chamber reliably in all of my pistols, even in tight chambered Sig 1911/Lone Wolf barrels.

Many match shooters also claim they use the FCD as a "QC" die to ensure reliable feeding/chambering in their tighter-than-factory match barrels to prevent FTF/FTE issues during a match stage.

Also verified by Lee Precision, I do not recommend the use of FCD with larger than jacketed diameter lead bullets as the carbide sizing ring may post-size the diameter of the bullet decreasing bullet-to-barrel fit and increasing gas cutting/leading.

If you want to seat and taper crimp in separate steps to avoid shaving of the bullet side without post-sizing, you can always buy a separate taper crimp die (around $10) or have Lee Precision increase the diameter of the carbide sizing ring.

Since OP is asking about use of lead bullets and Dillon 550 press, ifz you are using "within spec" bullets but out of spec cases with dies that won't fully resize the case base (i.e. resizing bulged Glocked cases with Dillon dies) to allow fully chambering the rounds, you can "pre-size" the cases with FCD and reload as usual to avoid any post-sizing/decreasing the neck tension from work-hardened case wall spring back.

Depending on the bullets and the condition of the brass you use, FCD may be an essential tool to fix your cases and finish the loaded rounds for reliable feeding/chambering, but my FCDs continue to stay in the die boxes.

 

[ranger335v]

"But I don't consider .431" bullets "much larger" than needed for my 629, or almost any other .44 Mag/Spc firearm."

I do; sure they'll go through the bore but what would you think if those were jacketed? And what does additional diameter bring to the table? Cast .429" works exceptionally well in my old M29/6"; full power 2400/250 gr SWC loads at 100 yards using factory irons commonly went into 5-6" groups and better when my eyes still worked good. If the bore and cylinder throats are the proper diameter (mine are) and the bullet is oversized, the slug gets 'sized' down to bore diameter when it's traveled it's own length anyway. Surely no one would seriously consider sizing bullets in the bore is more conducive to best accuracy than doing it properly in a lubrasizer? Bottom line, if Lee's FCD is sizing many of your cartridges you have bigger problems than the die.

All that's from someone who learned to load and cast before many of you were a gleam in your daddy's eyes, so I just may comprehend more about cast bullets than some of you green whipper-snappers could believe!

 

[Sam1911]

Oh, that's entirely possible. Of course I fought lead issues in my bore for quite a while until I got things just right.

My bore slugs to .430", but my throats were a little tighter. I had them reamed and make sure to use bullets of the appropriate hardness for the pressures I'm running (pretty soft for most of my loads), at .431".

That combination lets me shoot 500-1,000 rounds (and probably many more, never tried) between cleanings with no noticeable lead build up.

Ergo, .431 is EXACTLY right for my gun. So we can take the FCD and shove it! Up on to the shelf, I mean.

Honestly, you are the first person I've ever run into who would call .431 lead bullets oversized for a .44 Mag. Seems to be the standard diameter for every caster I've used.

Doing a quick check around the 'net just now, I do see that Penn Bullets says some OLDER 629s might actually want a .429" but most guns do best with a .430-.431, and some Rugers really even need a .432!

So, if you have old guns, I guess it is a good thing to be an old guy and know old things!

 

[sean eady]

Been following this thread and want to ask a question and make sure what I am understanding is true. The question being ... If a completed round runs through a FCD it should safely fit a normal SAAMI spec barrel making hand checking with a case gauge such as the lyman or wilson an extra unnecessary step? I have always used and had great results using plated bullets and the FCD with 9mm,40S&W,and 45ACP. I have also always run each and every round through a case gauge wich is very time consuming but always lets me know my rounds should chamber without a problem. I never thought I could skip the case gauge if they went through the FCD.

 

[Sam1911]

I never thought I could skip the case gauge if they went through the FCD.

Well...it's really up to you, but that's what I do.

 

[Lost Sheep]

I never thought I could skip the case gauge if they went through the FCD.

Remember that the FCD MAY not get all the way down to the bottom of the case and it does nothing with regard to case length.

I use my chamber as a case gauge (for semi-automatics, with the barrel removed from the gun)

Lost Sheep

 

[RustyFN]

The question being ... If a completed round runs through a FCD it should safely fit a normal SAAMI spec barrel making hand checking with a case gauge such as the lyman or wilson an extra unnecessary step?

Yes. That's what I have been using the FCD for the last six years. I have never had an ammo problem at a match or practice and never use a case gauge. If I have a round get post sized then it gets set to the side until it can be inspected to see if I want to shoot it or pull it. In the last six years and thousands of rounds made I have had two 9mm rounds get post sized with jacketed bullets. I have never used anything but lead in 45 auto and have never had a lead bullet post sized in any caliber I load. I also don't get leading.

The guy who gave the advice was a BULLET GURU, not an INTERNET GURU!
He wasn't spinning anything, he was making a statement about certain circumstances...and he's right!

Not in my experience.

 

[hentown]

Mostly agree with Sam, although I don't use the FCD at all. If you set up your 3 die set correctly, your ammo will be good. Period. Jacketed or lead. You don't need to seat and crimp in separate steps and you don't need an FCD. But if you like extra work and expense it's OK; after all, it is a free country.

It is prudent to check rounds with a gauge, or the barrel itself, but using an FCD as a checker makes sense too. That's the only use I can see for one.

But you will discover this subject is one of the liveliest on the gun boards.
___

There's no extra work when I'm loading with my 650 and using a FCD. I don't load lead. I have loaded some Precision Bullets, who also recommend against the FCD. I used mine anyhow, and got good results. I rarely feel the carbide sizing ring doing anything. I like the way the FCD crimps and I like the way the crimp is adjusted.

 

[EddieNFL]

...and some Rugers really even need a .432!

I bought a Redhawk around '85 and slugged the bore at .431. It refused to group cast bullets less than .432.

 

[Sam1911]

I bought a Redhawk around '85 and slugged the bore at .431. It refused to group cast bullets less than .432.

Which sounds about right, to me. 0.001 over bore size is just about right.

 

[Walkalong]

When you get a revolver with throats .001 over groove diameter, you have a gem for shooting lead.

If you get one with undersized throats, you can have them reamed.

If you get one with over sized throats, you can get by if it isn't too bad, but you may have to take special care to keep from swaging bullets down with tight brass. If the throats are really big, you may be out of luck with lead.

I have been known to ask the counter person if I could measure the throats on a revolver. Plan on getting a funny look. Of course then you are assuming the bore is the correct size.

 

[LiveLife]

If you don't feel your FCD post-sizing that's one thing; but if you feel FCD post-sizing significantly, I would measure the OAL and recheck after manually chambering from the magazine by releasing the slide. If you have noticeable reduction in OAL (say, several thousands), I would repeat the test with another round that post-sized to verify possible reduction in neck tension.

If you do not experience decrease in OAL, you are good to go.

 

[ranger335v]

" I guess it is a good thing to be an old guy and know old things! "

That's something like what my old wife says, smiling at me.

(Just for the record, a lot of ol' guys tried oversize bullets too, and abandoned them for better fits to obtain better accuracy - you younguns didn't invent fat bullets you know!)

 

[Striker Fired]

I don't think anyone here said they use "fat" bullets and let the bore size them. When you slug your barrel and it is .002"-.003" over standard, a lead bullet that is .001" over that(which is the standard way to size lead) is what you refer to "fat" bullets, which many FCD will hit and possibly swage. I don't see where the thought that the "young'uns are doing anything wrong comes from. The barrel NEEDS the "fat" bullets.

 

[918v]

I've stopped crimping.

I bell minimally. The act of seating straightens out the case mouth. Case tension keeps the bullet in place. The round feeds and chambers. My gun is happy. I am happy.

But since people like trinket items, I think I'll buy a lathe and start making "Factory" Bell Dies. They'll have carbide expander plugs and will swage crimps out of primer pockets too

 

[Walkalong]

You'll make a fortune.

 

[ranger335v]

"...since people like trinket items, I think I'll buy a lathe and start making "Factory" Bell Dies."

I won't predict a fortune but if you make 'em there are lot of guys who will buy 'em. And whine if they can't use 'em properly, like the factories do!