Lee FCD (pistol, not rifle) the Virtue and the Vice

[Lost Sheep]

Thanks to blazerbowe for sharing his question on his thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=691028

The post-sizing feature of the Lee Pistol FCD (Factory Crimp Die) would "cure" blazerbowe's problem (the virtue). This, according to Lee Precision, is the principal reason for the existence of the pistol FCD.

But it would do nothing to identify or cure the cause (the vice)

In fact, by squishing the bullet inside the case, might create another problem (inadequate grip of the case on the bullet or loose bullet tension). This is particularly problematic with lead bullets, less so with jacketed.

I took this opportunity to post because these simple facts often get lost in the heated rhetoric that sometimes invades threads about the Lee FCD.

Thanks for reading.

Lost Sheep

 

[56hawk]

When I first started loading 380, I loaded a bunch of rounds with 115 grain bullets. They would chamber in my Beretta 84 but nothing else. I didn't have a FCD so I just ran them into the sizing die just enough so they would chamber in all my 380s. Not the best thing, but it did solve the problem.

 

[ljnowell]

I hear a lot of people talk about the FCD as it relates to pistol ammo. This is what I can say:

I have reloaded probably 5k rounds of 45acp and maybe the same amount of 38/357 using unmodified FCDs in the fourth hole of my turret press. I have had no problems at all with it sizing down bullets. In fact, I have pulled some just to check and see and they were the exact same size as when they were seated. There was no loss of neck tension, no undersizing, and no leading caused by it. Even on the rounds that had resistance in the die, nothing.

I wont argue with people, but anyone that says that they WILL cause a loss of neck tension, undersizing, leading problems, etc is dead wrong. It MAY. If you have one that has a undersized carbide sizing ring in it (which I have read people having issues with) then it most certainly could. Mine have caused no problems at all.

I will also add that I have removed the post sizing ring from all of mine because I get tired of the occasional round having the resistance going through.

 

[jim8115]

One thing I know for sure. In my XD40, which really doesnt really like SWC's anyway.
Loading Missouri 170 SWC, I have to seat them at 1.110 to get them to fit the chanmber. No matter what I do, they would not feed , until I ran them through the FCD. I dont know why, but the ones that have been run through the FCD function 100% . I would prefer not to use the FCD on lead, but in this case I do.

JIM

 

[Lost Sheep]

I hear a lot of people talk about the FCD as it relates to pistol ammo. This is what I can say:

I have reloaded probably 5k rounds of 45acp and maybe the same amount of 38/357 using unmodified FCDs in the fourth hole of my turret press. I have had no problems at all with it sizing down bullets. In fact, I have pulled some just to check and see and they were the exact same size as when they were seated. There was no loss of neck tension, no undersizing, and no leading caused by it. Even on the rounds that had resistance in the die, nothing.

I wont argue with people, but anyone that says that they WILL cause a loss of neck tension, undersizing, leading problems, etc is dead wrong. It MAY. If you have one that has a undersized carbide sizing ring in it (which I have read people having issues with) then it most certainly could. Mine have caused no problems at all.

I will also add that I have removed the post sizing ring from all of mine because I get tired of the occasional round having the resistance going through.

You are correct. Properly sized bullets will not even be touched by the post-sizing ring in the Lee FCD with a ring that is not undersized.

Your experience is how it should be.

If one has oversized lead bullets, that would be a different story.

Lost Sheep

 

[Lost Sheep]

One thing I know for sure. In my XD40, which really doesnt really like SWC's anyway.
Loading Missouri 170 SWC, I have to seat them at 1.110 to get them to fit the chanmber. No matter what I do, they would not feed , until I ran them through the FCD. I dont know why, but the ones that have been run through the FCD function 100% . I would prefer not to use the FCD on lead, but in this case I do.

JIM

Why? Because the rounds after loading (but before the FCD) do not fit your chamber (that is, not SAAMI sized). The Lee FCD is designed to fix that.

However, it is far better to prevent whatever is causing the ill fit in the first place. (An ounce of prevention earlier is better than a pound of cure later.)

Lee Precision's own words may be useful

http://leeprecision.net/support/ind...View/112/60/carbide-factory-crimp-explanation

So if there is a buckle in the case from excessive crimp or a bulge from a slightly oversize bullet, the complete cartridge is resized as it is withdrawn from the die; You can be certain that it will chamber, because it has been resized after the bullet was seated and crimped.

I am not suggesting you are buckling your cases or doing anything at all wrong, but if your brass has thicker walls or your bullets are just a little oversized, switching to thinner brass or getting properly sized bullets might be better than using the FCD. Another possibility is that your gun has slightly undersized chambers (my Dan Wesson does.)

Lost Sheep

 

[noylj]

I see no negative with the pistol FCD, unless you are shooting lead bullets that are 0.003" or more over the nominal bullet diameter. In that case, you will get the bullet being swaged down.
Remember, the "sizing" only brings the case down to the SAAMI max dimensions for a case to fit a proper chamber. It is not the same as the sizing die.
Finally, the crimp is as good as they come. For a roll crimp, only the Redding Profile Crimp die does a better job, and it also has a rather long "taper" section that can also "iron" out problems, but not to the degree that the Lee dies does.
For a taper crimp, it is as good as any other taper crimp die you can buy and a lot better than most. Many go so far as to remove the carbide insert so it is just a crimp die.
So, unless you are shooting oversize lead bullets, I see no negatives--though I do agree that determining the cause of the chambering problem is more important than simply "papering" over the problem. Most times, I find that the reloader is NOT properly expanding the case (and, in many cases, not expanding at all and simply flaring/belling the case mouth) and that is causing the bullet to bulge the case out where the walls are thinnest.
They are not a panacea for bad reloading practice, but they are good for giving a great crimp and ensuring that every round will chamber.

 

[Blue68f100]

I see no need for the FCD, do not own one. If your seating and crimping in one step this may be a problem. Works fine for roll crimps not so well for the taper crimp.

 

[918v]

The FCD would be a worthwhile tool if Lee made the crimping element out of carbide. As it stands, the FCD is a crude and rough solution to bandage someone's mistakes.

 

[RustyFN]

The FCD would be a worthwhile tool if Lee made the crimping element out of carbide. As it stands, the FCD is a crude and rough solution to bandage someone's mistakes.

There are other uses for it besides fixing mistakes.

 

[Lost Sheep]

The FCD would be a worthwhile tool if Lee made the crimping element out of carbide. (edited for focus)

How much of a difference would there be if the crimping element were carbide? What, precisely would that difference be?

I always thought the main virtues of Tungsten-Carbide were its wear resistance (useful because the sizing ring slides along nearly the entire length of the cartridge body) and smoothness (because it reduces friction, and thereby the need for lubrication).

Applying a roll crimp involves nearly no sliding of the contact surfaces and a taper crimp only a little sliding contact, and not nearly as much pressure as sizing does.

Lost Sheep

 

[GT1]

The FCD is an excellent addition to Lee's die sets. Almost everyone has been seating and crimping in separate stations for the last couple decades anyway, and ignoring the finishing part of that die for arguments sake(because there is no valid argument against it except in the case of significantly oversized lead projectiles.) it makes a fine taper crimp on any semi-auto round(9mm&.45acp) I've produced. I don't own any wheel guns, so I can't comment on those calibers.
First and foremost, it is a simple crimp die, same as any other. Making it (The crimping section)carbide would border on the ridiculous.

 

[Lost Sheep]

First and foremost, it is a simple crimp die, same as any other. Making it (The crimping section)carbide would border on the ridiculous.

Please don't pre-judge that which has not been explained. I am interested to hear the reasoning.

Lost Sheep

 

[918v]

How much of a difference would there be if the crimping element were carbide? What, precisely would that difference be?

It would crimp smoothly, like factory ammo, and would not shred brass off the case mouth.

 

[Lost Sheep]

It would crimp smoothly, like factory ammo, and would not shred brass off the case mouth.

I think I understand. I suspect the rough crimp is due, not to the die's material, but to a defect in the die (which might be covered by the manufacturer).

I have several crimping dies, both seat-crimp and crimp only of Redding, Lee, Lyman and RCBS. All are tool steel and none give bad crimps.

Could your die(s) be defective, chipped inside or worn? Have you contacted the maker?

If the problem is due to heavy use, perhaps a carbide crimping insert would be worth the cost. When I had a suggestion for a product improvement, I sent it to Lee Precision and got an answer from John Lee. (I didn't agree with him, but at least I believe he listened, considered and answered.)

Good luck.

Lost Sheep

 

[jim8115]

Why? Because the rounds after loading (but before the FCD) do not fit your chamber (that is, not SAAMI sized). The Lee FCD is designed to fix that.

However, it is far better to prevent whatever is causing the ill fit in the first place. (An ounce of prevention earlier is better than a pound of cure later.)

Lee Precision's own words may be useful

http://leeprecision.net/support/ind...View/112/60/carbide-factory-crimp-explanation



I am not suggesting you are buckling your cases or doing anything at all wrong, but if your brass has thicker walls or your bullets are just a little oversized, switching to thinner brass or getting properly sized bullets might be better than using the FCD. Another possibility is that your gun has slightly undersized chambers (my Dan Wesson does.)

Lost Sheep

Nope, they fit the chamber just fine. They just wont feed reliably

 

[Lost Sheep]

Nope, they fit the chamber just fine. They just wont feed reliably

Oops. I took your post #4 too literally.

One thing I know for sure. In my XD40, which really doesnt really like SWC's anyway.
Loading Missouri 170 SWC, I have to seat them at 1.110 to get them to fit the chanmber. No matter what I do, they would not feed , until I ran them through the FCD. I dont know why, but the ones that have been run through the FCD function 100% . I would prefer not to use the FCD on lead, but in this case I do.

JIM

I did not see that the next sentence about feeding was intended to modify the earlier sentence.

I would love to see pictures.

I have a friend with a Springfield XD that will not feed (but chambered with no problem) cast lead semi-wadcutters at all, but it feeds cast lead round-nose just fine. Luckily, my 45s all feed SWC just fine, so he hasn't had to go to the lengths you did. We simply traded slugs, my lead round-nose for his SWC.

I AM intensely curious about what it is that interferes with the feeding. Bullet nose or shoulder, I would think, would not be cured by the FCD. But if the case mouth is hanging up somewhere, that might be the ticket.

So, I am wondering if an FCD might have cured my friend's feeding problem, or perhaps just the tiniest bit more taper crimp.

Lost Sheep

 

[918v]

Could your die(s) be defective, chipped inside or worn? Have you contacted the maker?

No because that's how Lee makes all their dies- rough. That's why they are so cheap.

 

[jim8115]

Oops. I took your post #4 too literally.

I did not see that the next sentence about feeding was intended to modify the earlier sentence.

I would love to see pictures.

I have a friend with a Springfield XD that will not feed (but chambered with no problem) cast lead semi-wadcutters at all, but it feeds cast lead round-nose just fine. Luckily, my 45s all feed SWC just fine, so he hasn't had to go to the lengths you did. We simply traded slugs, my lead round-nose for his SWC.

I AM intensely curious about what it is that interferes with the feeding. Bullet nose or shoulder, I would think, would not be cured by the FCD. But if the case mouth is hanging up somewhere, that might be the ticket.

So, I am wondering if an FCD might have cured my friend's feeding problem, or perhaps just the tiniest bit more taper crimp.

Lost Sheep

I did try using more crimp, without using the FCD. Still no luck


JIM

 

[Lost Sheep]

No because that's how Lee makes all their dies- rough. That's why they are so cheap.

Yes, they are rough. On the outside, at least.

All my dies (Lee, RCBS, Redding, Lyman) are as well-formed as they need to be where it counts, on the inside. Sorry to hear you wound up with a lemon.

It is, indeed, sad when a maker's quality control lets bad produces slip through. It makes the customers be part of the process that the manufacturer rightly is responsible for. But that is taking place all over the world these days.

I would, respectfully and with all the kindness I have, suggest you have pre-judged yourself out of a good tool.

Lost Sheep

 

[jim8115]

You are correct. Properly sized bullets will not even be touched by the post-sizing ring in the Lee FCD with a ring that is not undersized.

Your experience is how it should be.

If one has oversized lead bullets, that would be a different story.

Lost Sheep

Then explain this. I ran a couple of store-bought Winchester Supreme Elite PDX's through the FCD, they definitely are touched by the post-sizing ring, some a fair bit

JIM

 

[jcwit]

No because that's how Lee makes all their dies- rough. That's why they are so cheap.

You can say for positive that this is absolutely true with ALL their dies.

Blanket statements state and mean so little!

Defective products slip through from all manufacturers. Lee has their share as does everyone else.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Then explain this. I ran a couple of store-bought Winchester Supreme Elite PDX's through the FCD, they definitely are touched by the post-sizing ring, some a fair bit

JIM

I can't at the moment. Would you care to share the caliber and any other pertinent details with me? I am interested to see if I can duplicate your experience the next time I have access to a retail ammunition seller.

Are all these nickle plated?

Lost Sheep

 

[ljnowell]

No because that's how Lee makes all their dies- rough. That's why they are so cheap.

I have lee dies in 9mm, 45acp, 223, 45 colt, 40S&W and 38/357. Absoolutely NONE of mine are rough on the inside. They all work great and do not shred brass off a case mouth.

 

[jim8115]

I can't at the moment. Would you care to share the caliber and any other pertinent details with me? I am interested to see if I can duplicate your experience the next time I have access to a retail ammunition seller.

Are all these nickle plated?

Lost Sheep

40 S&W , they are nickle