Lee REAL & Shallow Grooves

Status
Not open for further replies.

rodwha

Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
4,050
Location
Texas
My cast 320 grn REALs measure about .517” across the widest driving band. I need a felt wad under it to shoot well through my ~.502 x .520” Lyman Deerstalker. Were these designed for deeper grooved barrels or does anyone shoot them in a shallow grooved barrel? I assume they’d be hard to load in a shallow grooved barrel.

And has anyone had good results in a faster twist (32” or faster)? Seems the few times I’ve read of people trying them they find they don’t do well.
 
And has anyone had good results in a faster twist (32” or faster)? Seems the few times I’ve read of people trying them they find they don’t do well

I've cast and tried them in slower twists (1:48) in both shallow and deep grooved barrels. They haven't performed as well as I had hoped. They are awful without a wad under them. Less awful with one.
Therefore, I stick with maxiballs for cast conicals.
I have read of good success by a few people but I can't convey that message personally.
 
I had bought a handful of them to try out in my 1:48” and had punched some wads ahead of time having read they often require them. Using the 70 grns of 3F I had been using for breaking this barrel in with PRBs showed my first shot had keyholed at 50 yds striking about a foot left and several inches low. With a wad the next two were just under the bull and nearly touching. I bought a mold after that.

So these don’t require hammering into a shallow grooved barrel?
 
I've cast and tried them in slower twists (1:48) in both shallow and deep grooved barrels. They haven't performed as well as I had hoped. They are awful without a wad under them. Less awful with one.
Therefore, I stick with maxiballs for cast conicals.
I have read of good success by a few people but I can't convey that message personally.

I forgot to ask about the Maxiballs. Are they over land diameter like the REALs? When first looking at conicals I was warned about using them as most designs are undersized and can easily move off of the charge when hunting which is why I tried the REAL design. Do you know the driving band diameter?
 
I cast all of my conicals out of pure lead so they aren't quite as big in diameter as those made out of wheel weights. I don't over-analyze what turns out of the mold. If it's a filled-out conical, I use it.
I have found most of them to be loose rather than tight.
 
I cast all of my conicals out of pure lead so they aren't quite as big in diameter as those made out of wheel weights. I don't over-analyze what turns out of the mold. If it's a filled-out conical, I use it.
I have found most of them to be loose rather than tight.

I was curious how the diameter fits the bore, if they are engraved similarly to the REALs.

How do you ensure they stay put on the powder charge? I’m assuming you hunt with these. It seems rather simple to just keep the barrel pointed upwards but then people make a big deal out of it and certainly some have had bulged barrels or far worse, which is why I wonder if it’s even worth dealing with.
 
All .50 caliber barrels aren't the same or .45s etc. I have four .50s and two .45s plus a .445. All of them accept a maxiball or REAL differently. Some have a very tight fit requiring a mallet to get them down the first 3 or 4 inches while others insert with finger pressure. As you are aware, there are no real standards with black powder guns.
 
True enough. But a .50 cal should have lands close to .500” with my Lyman stated to be about .502” and so the diameter of the driving bands will certainly engrave into any rifling of that caliber. I’m curious if the Maxi is like that or if the bands are closer to the land diameter.
 
But a .50 cal should have lands close to .500” with my Lyman stated to be about .502

Thor all copper bullets come in .50 cal. but they send out a trial pack of bullets ranging from .500 to .503 (maybe even to .504) to see which one you should order for your barrel. I have 2 guns that measure .500 and one that is a .502. One size does not fit all.
If you cast your bullets out of lead with tin or antimony traces, they should come out a bit over size. Then you can pound them in if necessary so they will fit whatever size .50 you have.
 
I’ve considered the various full sized conicals, as well as saboted bullets, but truly like the idea of self cast projectiles in part because I believe one should practice with what one intends on using. It would become rather pricey using many of the options available. And there’s something more satisfying about making your own stuff.
 
Maybe try one of these. https://www.lymanproducts.com/brands/lyman/bullet-casting/bullet-moulds/black-powder-moulds.html

My link didn't work exactly like I wanted it to. On the upper right and the Options box go to the bottom and select Maxi Ball 50 caliber. This is the same bullets T/C has sold all these years for their BP rifles.

I have REAL molds for 45, 50 and 54 caliber and have found them to be accurate and I have never used a wad beneath the bullet. And all my bullets are cast of dead soft lead so they will bump up on firing to fit the bore.
 
Maybe try one of these. https://www.lymanproducts.com/brands/lyman/bullet-casting/bullet-moulds/black-powder-moulds.html

My link didn't work exactly like I wanted it to. On the upper right and the Options box go to the bottom and select Maxi Ball 50 caliber. This is the same bullets T/C has sold all these years for their BP rifles.

I have REAL molds for 45, 50 and 54 caliber and have found them to be accurate and I have never used a wad beneath the bullet. And all my bullets are cast of dead soft lead so they will bump up on firing to fit the bore.

I’ve never been able to use their site. You have to know the product number, which you don’t know unless you can view it. Very poor website now.
 
Hi rodwha. Did you click on the link? No the site isn't that good but just follow the above instructions. The SKU # 2640617. Maybe that will help. I had this mould and handles and stupidly sold them on GB for $45.:mad::cuss:
 
Hi rodwha. Did you click on the link? No the site isn't that good but just follow the above instructions. The SKU # 2640617. Maybe that will help. I had this mould and handles and stupidly sold them on GB for $45.:mad::cuss:

I had clicked on the link and tried a few things. But I had not clicked on their drop downs, which I had tried some time back but didn’t find it working I guess. Found it this time, but nothing that gives specs. I can see about what it would drop and know it weighs 370 grns.

I haven’t played with my 320 grn REAL enough, and not at all with a used mold for the 250 grn version yet, but the heavier seemed to work quite well at 50 yds. Need to work on it some more and then see what it does at 100 yds.

I must admit I’ve contemplated a larger meplat though. But from what I’ve read soft lead deforms at around 1200 fps and the REALs would likely achieve this easily out past 125 yds.

Initially I wasn’t warm and fuzzy concerning a ball past maybe 50 yds according to the numbers and more modern “knowledge.” I felt a conical was what it would take to hunt ethically. Now I understand it differently talking to people who hunt with a ball even to 125 yds or so. But I’m considering a barrel/rifle for hunting fields with peep sights or a Malcolm scope and hoping I can reach out to 200 yds with a long blank of +/- of less than 6” and really wanting for less than 5”.

Unfortunately the only projectile I’ve seen with numbers (BC) seems to be the .40 cal Hornady SST but don’t really want to use sabots as I don’t care for the idea of cleaning out plastic.

I prefer more traditional-like means but am not averse to trying something else.

At best I can get the 320 grn REAL with about 70 grns of 3F to barely make 175yds which still isn’t bad.
 
rodwha keep trying the 320 REAL. They shoot fine in my 50 cals. Also try the 250gr. Just be sure and use the softest lead you can get. I have a traditions Springfield Hawken and a Lyman GP with a 1/60 twist and it shoots the REAL and a Lee Improved Mini just fine. And both of those have shallow groove rifling. I also have a Cabelas Hawken made by the same people, Investarms and it shoot round balls and the Lee REAL And Improved mini very well. I used it and a 405gr improved mini with 90grs of 2F to kill my first elk many years ago. The range was just 40 yards but the destruction was impressive.

We used to have a gravel pit we shot at with our BP rifles and both RBs and Conicals work fine. But after 125 yards performance really starts to drop off for both. Of course they will both shoot farther than that but you can tell the striking power is falling off. Especially with the RB.

Forget the long range. Learn to hunt. I see you are also in TX. I have only made one shot over 80 yards. A 250 yard shot with a 243. But I like to set up and watch trails and crossings so my ranges are short. more like 50 yards or even less. My closest was 13 yards. That was with the Traditions Hawken and a 50 caliber ball and 75grs of powder. One quickly dead deer. Check out this site. I think the owner post here sometimes.

https://www.frontiermuzzleloading.com/

This book helped the most with learning about and shooting my BP guns.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Comple...254376&hash=item21412611ea:g:gu0AAOSwI~taT~J3
 
Like you I’ve never shot an animal past about 80 yds with my closest being about 15. But where I’ve often hunted there are plenty of fields, and this lease has blinds they have set up. I wouldn’t want to walk around (I have when I knew it was just me and my old boss) as A) it could disrupt others and more importantly B) I could find myself in an area where I could be hit by someone’s bullet. This place is outside of Doss on an almost 500 acre ranch. I’ve had opportunities but never took them.

I’m happy with the REAL so far, though I haven’t really tested them well enough yet.

Quite frankly I’m also intending on using a patched ball for anything close. The REALs are for beyond 100 yds and/or larger/more dangerous game.
 
I had to look up Doss Tx. You're in a deer rich area. I worked down there in that area in 2008 when the Austin area had a big hail storm on March 25th. I am an insurance adjuster and drove all over that region. But I had never heard of Doss before.

You really ought to pick what you want to use. A RB or REAL bullet. After about 50 yards the conical will start dropping more and you may need a different sight setting. If hunting deer especially the smaller Tx deer I would just stick with the round ball. Its been killing everything from squirrels to grizzly bears for the last 250 years or longer. But if you ever make it up north and west for elk or bigger bears I would opt for the conical of some sort.

If you read the Lewis & Clark journals you will see they shot grizzlies with round ball loads. They got chased over a couple of cliffs too.:what:
 
I missed a couple of questions in your first post. The shallow groove barrels do fine with conicals. Deeper grooves are normally for RB only barrels. Too deep of groves and you will get blow by on the conical bullets.

You asked about 1/32 twist barrels? Those are more for bullets and not so much RB loads. Round ball barrels tend to be slower twist. IIRC your gun has a 1/48 twist and while its a compromise twist they usually do better than some will tell you. The best answers are found by just shooting your gun at targets and see what the results are.

If you are new to BP I encourage your to get that Sam Fadala book from Ebay I linked to. It will answer all your questions. Then give some thought to getting the Lyman BP book. Lots of loads and info on velocities and patching. Between those two you will learn about all you need to know about BP guns.
 
Doss is indeed a deer rich area. On that ranch I could likely tag 5 deer in a weekend if I wanted to do that much work, which I don’t.

I figured a ball was more than plenty for about anything I can come across here in TX. On paper, as long as it’s not breezy, a ball can easily do 125 yds if the rifle and shooter are accurate and steady. Figured I’d sight it in at 100 yds even if I can’t shoot further as it is still fairly flat shooting and would help with any inaccurate distance estimates. And then of course it’s easy to do with no shooting high at 50 or low at 100. Just spot on.

So far all I’ve done is break my barrel in with crappy Pyrodex P/RS my father gave me with .015” and .016” pillow ticking with grape seed oil and a home cast .490” ball shooting at 50 yds. It’s ready for a proper lube and working on an accurate load. As is the arbitrary (figured 70 grns made it a 50-70 of sorts) charge I used, along with 20/50 vision without glasses was producing 3-5” groups at 50 yds. There’s certainly work to be done!

But that load and the 320 grn REAL shows great promise without much more work giving me about 1” group at 50, though I can’t hardy state such as it was just a few trial shots wanting to see what a conical was like as so many have said they hammer them. My Deerstalker has a recoil pad and the recoil wasn’t something all that noticeable like the .270 I typically used. It may well be this barrel will shoot REALs much better. I still need to try some of the 250 grn version also.

When I first became interested in a muzzleloader I settled on .50 cal figuring it plenty for things here with a ball and had the option of conicals were I ever able to go on an elk hunt (sooo tasty!), along with seeing so much more available for that cal and thinking I may need sabots and modern bullets when I ran these projectiles through a calculator. Now, knowing more, I see a ball outperforms what the numbers say, but I think I would have gone for a .54 cal and have considered a Deerstalker barrel in it for bigger game. In America bigger is better anyway, right?

I like the idea that Lyman barrels drop in and are relatively inexpensive. I see it being the muzzleloader version of a T/C Contender. But I’ve also eyed the heavy GPH with the shallow grooved 1:32” barrel and wondered if REALs even worked being oversized for a bore designed like that. I assumed it would really need to be hammered down. If so I’d likely drop the idea, although IdahoRon shoots paper patched Lee .500 bullets nicely from his.

I’m not really new per se, but can’t hardly call myself well experienced either. I’m much more familiar with my two revolvers than my rifle. I’ve searched online for answers and am a member of several forums. I also have Lyman’s 2nd edition, Cumpston’s and Bates’ Percussion Revolvers, as well as Sixguns. I’m lacking Ned Robert’s book on percussion rifles in which many of my long distance rifle questions are addressed as I’m told.

Thanks for your responses!
 
Hi Rod. The 1/32 barrels are geared for conicals and more likely saboted bullets. Nothing wrong with that just an expensive way to shoot. The TC rifles with the shallow rifling and 1/48 twist were promoted more to shoot the Lyman bullet I linked to. You can find those precast on gunbroker if you look. Buy a few and give them a try.

If you are getting 1” groups with the REAL at 50 yards I would just work with that. Sight in for it and then go hunt. Never heard of breaking in a BP barrel before?

And yes a 50 caliber is the new standard. And it works. I seems like I read a 50 caliber ball is no longer legal for Elk in Colorado???

And the REAL will load just as easy in the GPH as in the rifle you are using now.
 
Ah, yes (1:32” twist for conicals/sabots). Precisely what I’d need to shoot across fields and such. Investarms has a .45 cal barrel for their rifles but they don’t import them here. Looked into getting one but would have to order it from Europe.

Having been looking for something to give a point blank of +/- 4-5” all I could find that would likely do it well is the .40 cal Hornady SST. But then a .40 cal bullet would only be good for medium game I’d guess. But a paper patched .45 cal bullet with a WFN would do nicely on large game, though it wouldn’t go as far. But then a .50 cal WFN bullet would be a little more to my liking for a once in a lifetime elf hunt... Just deal with a .45 cal bullet for medium game, right? And give up on 200 yds or work on dealing with a different sighting system (I like how regardless of range a point blank system keeps you in the vitals nicely knowing closer needs a lower POA and further needs just a little higher to come close to POA).

The lands are sharp when knew and cut the patches. Some people will use a paste (can’t recall at the moment what it’s called) to smooth it out with some scour pad.

From the few people I’ve read comfortable using a .50 cal ball on elk hunts all keep the distance around 50 yds. I’d prefer to just use a conical or a .54 cal ball myself.
 
I completely forgot to address trajectories of a ball be a REAL. I, too, thought the conical had a greater rainbow trajectory compared to a ball as it made sense, but it’s what I’ve read several others claim. However I ran the numbers through the calculator.

Using Hodgdon’s info for T7 as it closely resembles Olde E I estimate the velocity of the 320 grn REAL being about 1500 fps and having a BC of 0.189 according to IdahoRon. That’s with an 80 grn charge of 2F creating close to what 70 grns of 3F would give. With the same charge and a ball the figures are in the REAL’s favor.

These figures are 25 yd intervals ending at 125 yds.

A .490” ball starting at 1842 fps. 1.1” 2.0” 1.8” 0.0” -3.6”
320 grn REAL at 1500 fps. 1.2” 2.0” 1.7” 0.0” -3.1”
A .490” ball starting at 1925 fps 0.9” 1.8” 1.6” 0.0” -3.4”

So actually the conical doesn’t give the more rainbow trajectory in comparison to a ball. But the ball actually does when shown stretching the distance even just a bit more than the 125 yds shown. The poor BC of the ball is certainly to blame.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top