Careful...one of them will see what you said about Gabe and post a link on WarriorTalk. Then we'll get to see what happens when you take a bunch of fanboys, form them into a flash mob and tell them to start a cross-board flame war.I'm not likely to take advice from a firearms trainer who's legally prohibited from owning firearms and seems to mostly offer AK and Urban Sniper classes.
Legal and Prudent defense against Flash Mobs
- Thread starter Pilot
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FIVETWOSEVEN
Member
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2009
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- 5,146
These "Flash Mobs" are making me toy with the idea of getting some tear gas rounds for my 12 gauge.
armoredman
Member
Flash bang and stingball grenade. Toss both and duck, then run. Now, it might be hard to explain to PD why you are carrying a flash bang and a sting ball grenade, but they'd work, and are less than lethal.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Gettin' older beats the alternative.
Geckgo
Member
thanks for the link to the pepper spray grenades, gonna look into the legalities of them flash bangs also
Buck Snort
Member
As some wag noted here in the PRC, if 5% of the ducks could shoot back there'd be no duck hunters!
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Buck Snort
Member
I think you'd be well advised to stay home at all costs!!
Deanimator
Member
It seems pretty obvious that you haven't done much reading about the actual details of these attacks.
There's NO doubt from the START that there's an attack. The PERPETRATORS themselves leave no room for doubt, demanding valuables, making threats, often hurling racial slurs, and striking the victims.
If somebody whom you don't trust is advancing on you, FORCEFULLY tell them to stop and not come any closer. If they mean you no harm, they will. If they ignore your order, they're OBVIOUSLY up to something bad. This forum and many others are rife with examples. You see it over and over in the "I Was There!" feature in "Combat Handguns" and in the "Armed Citizen" feature in "The American Rifleman".
This isn't exactly searching for Higg's boson. You're reading FAR too much subtlety into a situation mostly LACKING in subtlety.
Hitting (or trying to hit) somebody in the head with a bottle is deadly force. The appropriate response is deadly force. If the person doing the hitting doesn't want to get shot, perhaps he should take the unheard of step of NOT trying to bash somebody's head in.
ForumSurfer
Member
True, but are verbal threats enough to warrant deadly force? If the advancing crowd is shouting to "hand over your belongings," does that warrant a deadly response legally?
In my youth I put myself in some questionable situations. After being the target of a group of neo-nazis, I don't think a firearm would have helped me. There were too many people in a frenzy moving to quickly to take a good shot without endangering someone innocent...either before or after the fact.
Clearly, the best option is to not be involved...but after looking at all the physical details (moving targets, innocent or at least non-participant bystanders, multiple assailants from multiple angles and so on), I just see it as a complete no win situation in which shooting will only make the situation worse.
On a side note, I'd love to see a course of fire setup with 10-15 moving targets with no-shoots mixed in and see the outcome after a 10 second firing period. That should shed some real life physical light on this matter.
Deanimator
Member
I can only speak to Ohio.
If:
- You are in reasonable and immediate fear of life and limb
- Cannot withdraw in PERFECT SAFETY
Disparity of force (and 2+:1 odds certainly count as a disparity of force) trumps the APPARENT absence of weapons in your assailants' possession. A gang attack absolutely counts as an immediate threat to life and limb.
If a group approaches you, fails to heed your warnings not to approach closer AND surrounds you, eliminating your ability to withdraw, that's an open invitation for them to get shot. Get five friends and do this to a cop and see what happens.
Contrary to the asinine bleatings of some on the cleveland.com comments sections, there is NO requirement in the Ohio Revised Code to either submit to a robbery or "*ss whuppin'" in order to avoid harm to unlawful assailants.
I can't put it any simpler than this:
If you don't want to get shot, don't do everything humanly possible to convince a reasonable person that you NEED to be shot.
armoredman
Member
AZ has good laws, including Castle, Stand Your Ground, and Defensive Display. If a gang starts running at me in an agressive manner, yes, I am covered under law by "exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force", to quote the exact law. Low ready qualifies. I also second the suggestion, stay out of Philly!
http://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/00421.htm
http://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/00421.htm
armoredman
Member
The new stab and ballistic resistant vest from Safariland might be handy.
SleazyRider
Member
One defensive measure you might consider is, while driving through questionable areas of town, never allow yourself to bet "boxed on" at a traffic light. Maintain adequate distance when stopped at a red light or traffic jam to permit an escape route, even if it means driving over the sidewalk. Situational awareness trumps all.
DetroitStudent
Member
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- Nov 13, 2006
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- 50
Gentlemen,
As someone who went to graduate school in an extremely dangerous city (Detroit) for four years of my life, and have a number of friends who are attorneys, I would like to offer some words of advice.
I have learned alot of valuable advice on this forum, but I feel the last few pages of posts exhibit a high degree of naivete
No matter how "right" you may think you were in a self defense situation if you defend yourself from a flash mob expect the most intense legal challenges of your life. Imagine the fallout from your actions. You will be bankrupted while the current justice department, headed by Eric (My People) Holder, will prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law regardless of the cost.
Mass media would be even less kind. A ccw holder "mows down a group of youths." Did we mention the youths were "just starting to be productive in life, good boys, sang in church etc."
A jury composed of your upstanding "urban"citizens (think Jerome Ersland) would make sure you go to prison for life.
The ATF would certainly get involved, banning your "semiautomatic handgun with nasty armor piercing high velocity silver tipped vampire slaying bullets"
I realize that someone must take a stand. At the same time I urge you to RUN from these situations. It will end up badly because the people who are supposed to be concerned about the general welfare of this country are more interested in class warfare and punishing/persecuting European and Asian Americans with the "urban" criminal underclass
Please be safe this July 4th. Im personally not going to those 4th of july events because for better or worse, I associate "city events" with violent street thugs waiting to assault people. I'll spend time with my friends barbecuing.
All the best,
-Former Detroit Student
As someone who went to graduate school in an extremely dangerous city (Detroit) for four years of my life, and have a number of friends who are attorneys, I would like to offer some words of advice.
I have learned alot of valuable advice on this forum, but I feel the last few pages of posts exhibit a high degree of naivete
No matter how "right" you may think you were in a self defense situation if you defend yourself from a flash mob expect the most intense legal challenges of your life. Imagine the fallout from your actions. You will be bankrupted while the current justice department, headed by Eric (My People) Holder, will prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law regardless of the cost.
Mass media would be even less kind. A ccw holder "mows down a group of youths." Did we mention the youths were "just starting to be productive in life, good boys, sang in church etc."
A jury composed of your upstanding "urban"citizens (think Jerome Ersland) would make sure you go to prison for life.
The ATF would certainly get involved, banning your "semiautomatic handgun with nasty armor piercing high velocity silver tipped vampire slaying bullets"
I realize that someone must take a stand. At the same time I urge you to RUN from these situations. It will end up badly because the people who are supposed to be concerned about the general welfare of this country are more interested in class warfare and punishing/persecuting European and Asian Americans with the "urban" criminal underclass
Please be safe this July 4th. Im personally not going to those 4th of july events because for better or worse, I associate "city events" with violent street thugs waiting to assault people. I'll spend time with my friends barbecuing.
All the best,
-Former Detroit Student
Deanimator
Member
Certainly if you let somebody kill you or leave you a drooling vegetable, unable to care for yourself, none of the above is concern.
Why? I'm not going to get away.
I was a lousy runner as a 21 year old infantry second lieutenant. I'm not one millisecond faster at 53.
The State of Ohio doesn't require me to RUN from an assailant when out of home or vehicle, merely to ATTEMPT to withdraw. Virtually EVERY one of the recent violent flashmob incidents involved the victims being surrounded or trapped. The only way you're gong "run" THROUGH a mob is by shooting the members in your path.
To allow myself to be robbed, beaten, crippled or murdered in order to avoid LEGAL trouble is like allowing my house to burn down rather than soil my house with fire extinguisher residue.
Of course I don't live in Berkley or Madison. Here in Ohio, people take a VERY dim view of strongarm robbery. In fact, we've made it a practice to shoot people who engage in it. The most recent person to do so is doing just fine, facing NO legal repercussions from police and prosecutors, and BY LAW no danger of civil liability. After getting shot by the victim of your violent assault, try to find a lawyer who'll take your frivolous case on a contingent basis, KNOWING that even if you DID win, you couldn't collect a PENNY.
As someone that was born and grew up in Detroit, I could not disagree with Detroit Student more.
The legal aftermath does not factor into my decision at all. My only concern is the safety of my family and the innocent people around me. If I have a legal right to use deadly force, then I will use it. I am not going to lie down and let thugs take over.
If I am fear of my life and cannot retreat, I am going to act violently, fast and brutally. I will attempt to create a situation that the thugs will turn and run.
As far as the advice of running, it is foolish. Most of us cannot run fast enough to get away from a fast young man. Further, I am not going to run and let them have their way with the kids and women that cannot flee.
The legal aftermath does not factor into my decision at all. My only concern is the safety of my family and the innocent people around me. If I have a legal right to use deadly force, then I will use it. I am not going to lie down and let thugs take over.
If I am fear of my life and cannot retreat, I am going to act violently, fast and brutally. I will attempt to create a situation that the thugs will turn and run.
As far as the advice of running, it is foolish. Most of us cannot run fast enough to get away from a fast young man. Further, I am not going to run and let them have their way with the kids and women that cannot flee.
Joe Demko
Member
I was a lowly enlisted man, not one of exalted rank such as yourself, but I think you are missing the point here. You keep wanting to make it about what the state of Ohio requires and I get a rather gamey whiff of testosterone off your posts. The advice to run is because that gives you the best chance to survive. Unless this mob is singling you alone out as a target, unassing the area in the midst of what will be chaos is the best strategy in this unlikely and largely no-win situation.
Joe Demko
Member
I guess that we can, if we squint real hard and hold our mouths right, view firing a weapon into a crowd where we are unsure of targets and backstops (e.g. women and children) to be a better idea than trying to get same out of the area.
Deanimator
Member
My continued survival and the law are the ONLY things that matter, and in that order.
What I get a "whiff" of from your post is a willingness to be maimed or murdered in order to avoid HIGHLY unlikely legal trouble, at least in Ohio.
The advice to run, is for ME, stupid. I'm not going to get away, so what's the point? A strategy that ensures that I DON'T survive is a BAD strategy. I don't know what YOUR priorities are, but mine are to a)survive, b)not be beaten or killed, c)Not be robbed.
You sound like the type who considers strongarm robbery a "property crime". The law and simple common sense disagree.
You display a pretty obvious LACK of knowledge about the recent flashmob attacks. People were singled out, surrounded and attacked. You're not running away from that and NONE of the victims were able to. Several were beaten and robbed, one apparently fought off his attackers while suffering some injuries.
Surround and try to beat me and you cross a line that you likely won't be able to cross back over. Don't like that? Then don't do it.
Deanimator
Member
In the attacks in Chicago, there was NO trouble identifying targets, either on public transportation, in the parks or at the beaches. There were no "women and children" screaming racial slurs and threats and demanding and taking property.
Joe Demko
Member
Are you a lawyer in Ohio? If so, have you defended many self-defense cases? If so, I'll defer to your greater knowledge of the Ohio legal system. If not, then...
In the unlikely event you get your bad self caught in one of these flash mob attacks, you do as you see fit. Maybe you'll survive better than if you had run, maybe not. If you think this is a real risk for you, I think you better practice shooting under the most chaotic circumstances with lots of shoot/don't shoot targets mixed in with each other. And maybe a range officer who sucker punches you while you are trying to figure out which is which.
Deanimator
Member
No, but my lawyer is a lawyer in Ohio, and he agrees completely.
Your "solution" seems to be to "run away" THROUGH people surrounding you and trying to [at a minimum] beat and kick you senseless. One of us can apparently pass effortlessly through matter. I guarantee you it isn't me.
My "bad" self isn't EVER going to take a beating from a gang of atavistic thugs in order protect THEM, or to avoid an entirely imaginary legal "issue".
Your "argument", such as it is, is every bit as applicable to an attack by a single individual with a knife or a gun.
- Why didn't you run away (can't you outrun a bullet)?
- What if you'd missed him and hit somebody else?
- Why didn't you just give him what he wanted?
- How did you know he REALLY meant you harm... from his brandished knife or gun?
Sorry, I've got no legal duty to trust in the "good intentions" of a violent mob attacking me. Only a fool would.
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