Legal trouble if turned down on form 4473??

Status
Not open for further replies.
N

newbie4help

Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
229
I have an expunged deferred adjudication a long time ago for a fake ID (stupid thing several years ago when I was 18). I know from reading ATF form 4473 that even expunged felony convictions aren't "convictions" for purposes of the form, and deferred adjudication doesn't count as a "conviction" under the law of the state it was in anyway (which is what governs I believe) but I'm afraid if something pops up in the system anyway I could get rejected. If you get rejected it basically means by definition you were "wrong" on one of those yes or no questions. So can you get in trouble for "lying" on your form in a case like this?
 
I know it's not a lie but I am worried that if by some chance it pops up (say some idiot at the courthouse forgot to seal some part of the record) somehow they'll think I was. Why do you say don't worry do you have experience with this?
 
You're essentially asking for legal advice, which means you might want to check with a lawyer.

That said, my general feeling on it is this: if the form only asks for convictions, then you can safely say you don't have any. A deferred adjudication that ends without a conviction is NOT a conviction.

The laws of the state definitely govern, since that's the law that decides whether you've been convicted or not. But as a general rule in all states, if you didn't have to stand up and say "Guilty, your honor" or if a jury didn't find you guilty, then you haven't been convicted.

The biggest problem with getting rejected (and I can't see how you would be) is that you've been rejected. That would suck.

I suppose it's possible that you could be charged with something for "lying" on your form, but why would they go through all that trouble unless they really wanted you for something else? The feds have better things to do, I hope. And I would think they'd still have to prove that you intended to lie, rather than made an honest mistake.

Aaron
 
Thanks Aaron that's comforting :) I actually am really good friends with several law enforcement/DAs and they told me not to worry either but I can't help feeling a little helpless as I have to wait 4 weeks to do this, and I don't want more hassle about that stupid mistake years ago.

Incidentally I passed a background check to visit a state prison with flying colors (I did some legal work in one) so I hope they were as thorough as the NICS.
 


If your problem arises from attempting to use a false ID to buy alcohol, in Texas that's a Class C misdemeanor, up to $500 fine, community service and 30 day suspension of driver's license. The deferred adjudication means you either pled guilty or were found guilty and the judge gave you DA. If you were not arrested on the same charge within a specified time, your record was sort of expunged. You may or may not have a record. You could go to the Texas DPS website and with a credit card and a little time, check and see if DPS has you in their files. Charge is/was $3.75 USD. The main thing is, it's not a felony.
​
 
It's impossible to know what happened with your earlier issue unless you secure a copy of the court records. You ought to do that, and consult an attorney if you have any questions about what the terms mean.

As far as NICS, it is possible that they will deny if they see something pop up. There is an appeals process that forces them to look at the record more closely.
 
It wasn't in TX, and I know 100% positive that it didn't count as conviction. I'm not worried about that at all - that is not an issue. It doesn't matter if its felony or not according to form ATF 4473 anyway - the issue is whether its expunged or not. I know I had mine expunged but my sole issue/worry is if some record still manages to pop up which would be huge pain in the ass.

If I passed a prison background check (which I think uses FBI database) I'm probably good right?
 
And I had a record of the expungment up until a few years back when I threw away a bunch of stuff as I was moving. There is no ambiguity about this - I know it was deferred then expunged, and I know exactly what that means in the state it was in - 1) not conviction (b/c there is no "judgment of guilt") and 2) the records were expunged/sealed. It is legally deemed in that state that it **never happened**

Again, my only worry is - could this still pop up on FBI's thing? A lawyer can't tell me that.
 


[quote="Cosmoline]It's impossible to know what happened with your earlier issue unless you secure a copy of the court records. [/quote]

That's not quit true, at least not in Texas. DPS has a habit of not completely expunging a person's records. An acquantence's DWI record from 25 years ago is still there. They recieved probation which lead to the case being dismissed, but it still shows up as a conviction. probation served and dismissal. In Texas, a first conviction DWI is not a felony conviction. Also, if DPS doesn't have it, neither will NICS.
​
 
IANAL

It seems to me that even if you had a conviction on your record for using a fake ID, as long as the charge wasn't a felony or a charge with the potential of more than 1 year in prison then its not a crime that would make you a "prohibited person" and as such not germane to buying a firearm and won't show up on the NICS.
 
last time I checked, misdemeanors that dont carry an adjudication that would count as 'mental status change' or a good bit of time in jail do not affect NCIS, and ones that would land you in jail only count for up to two years (i.e. a misdemeanor conviction only bars you for two years or until it is stricken, whichever comes first). However, if you werent convicted, then it shouldnt show up anyway.

thats if I recall correctly, of course. Dont forget to check state law as well.
 
It seems to me that even if you had a conviction on your record for using a fake ID, as long as the charge wasn't a felony or a charge with the potential of more than 1 year in prison then its not a crime that would make you a "prohibited person" and as such not germane to buying a firearm and won't show up on the NICS.
Click to expand...

last time I checked, misdemeanors that dont carry an adjudication that would count as 'mental status change' or a good bit of time in jail do not affect NCIS, and ones that would land you in jail only count for up to two years
Click to expand...

Lets see where it appears he is saying it was a felony:

I know felony... convictions aren't ...
Click to expand...

Making a fake ID is a felony many places. A fake driver's license is a felony some places.
It can count as various forms of fraud. Depending on how it is used could add additional charges.

So I gather he was charged with a felony for which he did commit while he was a legal adult over the age of 18 and managed to get out of the long term consequences at the state level. He was in a state that has the option to "expunge" it and not just "seal" his record. Meaning they act like it never happened, which if it never happened makes him legal at the state and federal level. If he merely paid his debt and made amends, too bad, still permently barred federaly.
(Ironic, if everyone including the state acts like the wrong was never legaly commited it is all better, but if the state acts like it did happen, but he is being given a second chance it is still a permanent federal ban. I guess the moral of that story is wrongs are okay legaly if nobody must take responsibility for having commited them in the future.)

He now wants to know if he will get into trouble at the federal level even though he is okay at the state level.


I would say things should work out just fine. There is always the chance you were added to the NICS and then not removed, which could create a lot of difficulties. However legaly you should be commiting no crime since legaly you never commited a crime so nothing should be lost by trying. Most likely it will be a non issue and you won't have any trouble.
If you are on the bad list it could be a royal pain to correct it.
 
IF your DA buddies told you not to worry about it, then you probably shouldn't be worrying about it. Heck, if they're DA's then they're freaking lawyers, so they'd know a hell of a lot better than a bunch of yahoo's in a random internet forum.

We do have some lawyer types lurking around here, but from what I've seen they generally don't give legal advice on these forums, probably for ethical, liability and monetary concerns.
 
Zoogster-

I think you're right, and that's why people on here seem to have missed all along. Whether you were charged with a felony **does not matter** if you were never CONVICTED. You don't even have to read the fine print on Form 4473 to know that.

And even if you WERE convicted (which I wasn't!) if it was EXPUNGED you're still okay - the fine print is very clear on that.

I had deferred adjudication which means I was never convicted in the first place under state law (which governs). The "expunging" was basically expunging my name from all the dockets, records, etc, and the whole thing legally never happened. I think they even expunge the arrest record.

Yet again - even if that expunging never happened I wouldn't be "convicted" since there was no court judgment of guilt. It's just there would be a paper trail.

You hit the nail on the head - the only way that this could get me is if there was some error and they put my name into the database on accident. That's all I was worried about. But it doesn't sound like anything dire happens if you're rejected - you just either don't get the gun or if you want you can appeal.
 
I am not sure if your state has them but speak to a lawyer about getting an Order of Non Disclosure.
 
This is the second thread you've posted regarding this exact same topic. If you want legal advice, get a lawyer to research your deferred adjudication. It will give you peace of mind. We cannot do that for you.

Springmom
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

H
  • Locked
Form 4473 Question
Replies
8
Views
2K
rbernie
rbernie
B
  • Locked
Form 4473 question
Replies
13
Views
2K
Frank Ettin
Frank Ettin
alsaqr
  • Locked
Duncan, OK Man Guilty Of Form 4473 Violation
2
Replies
32
Views
4K
Frank Ettin
Frank Ettin
M
  • Locked
Push for Electronic 4473 Form
2 3
Replies
64
Views
4K
ConstitutionCowboy
C
J
  • Locked
Prohibited from purchasing handgun?
Replies
12
Views
1K
yhtomit
Y
Back
Top