Legislation For The 6,000,000+ Legally Armed Civilians Needs To Be Implemented

[RevDisk]

Not to mention that they have spent a life going where angels fear to tread...and you didn't.

Actually, I did spend a good amount of time doing so. Never as a LEO, I admit.

No, dead is not dead. Dying by being stomped to death on the side of the road after a traffic stop is a lot different than a construction accident or an electrician that accidentally grabs the wrong wire. A cop in Memphis was kidnapped a few years back and tortured for hours, his eyes were gouged out, he was burned with cigaretts...etc. That doesn't happen to heavy equipment operators.

Such things have happened to non-LEO also. There are some real sick puppies out there, and everyone deserves a chance to have tools to defend oneself.

They are the ones who face the drunk pricks, the crack head zombies, the dealers, the insane, etc...day in and day out. I know many LEOs that receive death threats for their efforts. Yet they continue to function. Day in and day out... They shouldn't have to be regarded as easy targets once that badge comes off.

Geesh, if I only had to deal with crackheads, drunks and insane folks, I'd be a happy camper.


Tell ya what, head down to the local VA hospital. Tell an old grunt that survived any war that he is not worthy of a national CCW. Tell a young grunt that is missing a limb or two that he didn't have a job that was important enough to warrant such trust. (Careful, one of my buddies learned that his new titanium alloy leg makes a nice club.) If ya see a 18 year old fresh out of boot, definitely be sure to tell him he's not important enough to be allowed to defend himself.

Better yet, head down to the regular hospital. Tell a guy that was severely beaten during a mugging on vacation that he doesn't deal with enough threats to warrant a national CCW. Or a woman that has been raped and is worrying that she might be HIV positive now.

If you can do so, you have a much stronger will than I do.


Look, I'm not honked at cops for being allowed to carry. I think they should be allowed to national carry. I just think non-LEO civilians should be allowed to do the same if they jump through the hoops. I see all lives as equally important. All I'm trying to point out is that everyone should have a chance for self-defense. Even if a person is NOT at a constant serious risk of life or limb, they should still be allowed to carry if they are not a criminal or mental. Civil liberties are civil liberties, and should be equally applied.

I'll be sending in my application for a Florida CCW soon enough. A police officer I used to serve with is doing my fingerprint cards on his off time as a favor. It's an annoying process to apply for a bunch of non-resident cards, but I intend to do it anyways. I consider my life to be important.


My $0.02

 

[The Real Mad Max]

Tell ya what, head down to the local VA hospital. Tell an old grunt that survived any war that he is not worthy of a national CCW. Tell a young grunt that is missing a limb or two that he didn't have a job that was important enough to warrant such trust. (Careful, one of my buddies learned that his new titanium alloy leg makes a nice club.) If ya see a 18 year old fresh out of boot, definitely be sure to tell him he's not important enough to be allowed to defend himself.

Nah. I'll let YOU do that.

I never ONCE implied or said that they or anyone else didn't deserve to have CCW priveleges. Don't put words into my mouth.

You and YOUR ilk seem to be the ones that want to deny a group CCW, not me. And oh by the way, I "are" one of them vets.

There are none so deaf as those that would not hear...

I notice your signature line conforms perfectly to yourself. Congratulations on a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I say it doesn't create a special class. It extends the same priveledge to them in retirement that they have had before retirement.

Errrr ... no, it does not. Prior to the passage of the new law, LEOs could carry outside of their home state only when on duty on an official assignment. At all other times and under all other circumstances (excluding FEDERAL LEOs, of course), LEOs became ordinary citizens the moment they crossed a state border. Sure, many LEOs likely would never cite a brother LEO who was found carrying illegally outside of the jusrisdiction in which he was sworn, but the absence of a citation does not render an illegal act legal.

 

[The Real Mad Max]

Ah well...

Split milk boys. Get over it.

 

[cordex]

I never ONCE implied or said that they or anyone else didn't deserve to have CCW priveleges. Don't put words into my mouth.

Isn't that exactly what were saying with:

Not to mention that they have spent a life going where angels fear to tread...and you didn't.

Max, it's simple. I believe police (active, retired ... whatever) should be allowed to carry wheresoever they choose to go, but not because they're police. Simply because for the most part they're members of a segment of the populace who are - in the colloquial - "good guys".
But then ... so are the vast majority of other folks. Me included.

You've spent this entire thread making excuses for the law's special exemption for a certain class of people while denying that such a special class is being created. You tell us exactly why you think certain people of an arbitrary occupation should receive "CCW priveleges" before others, and then tell us that you haven't said any such thing. To top it all off, you try to make anyone who disagrees out to be the unreasonable ones.

But is this just "sour grapes"? Is this just jealousy and bitterness? Yeah, I suppose it is. In the same way people have always been jealous of any group set aside by law and given special privileges by governments. In the same way I'd be jealous if retired IRS agents didn't have to pay speeding tickets or professional basketball players were exempt from income taxes. In the same way I'd be bitter if members of labor unions were given two votes in any election to my one, or retired firefighters could seize for themselves one property they'd helped save.

But it's awful easy to dismiss the opposition as ignorant jealousy when you've already gotten the special status you sought.

 

[Blackhawk 6]

I am not an LEO but I believe this is a good piece of legislation. The intent of the legislation was not to create a special class of citizens. It is about crime. The politicians saw a way to be tough on crime without having to spend any money. In some small way it probably does reduce crime.

Why single out the police? For one simple reason: The majority of people believe that it police officers are the only people who are capable of dealing with criminals and a firearm is a vital piece of equipment for the officer to perform that function. This is why retired officers were included. This is not to say that there are not non-LEO's who are more proficient with a firearm. Some are, but many are not.

In my experience, the overwhelming majority of law enforcement is worthy of this privelage. Most are good people doing a hard job and would not hesitate to act if they saw a violent crime occurring outside their home state. Providing a means to ensure they have the capability to act makes sense.

I have read with interest the replies posted by members of the law enforcement profession. I believe the justifications they have offered do a poor job of defending the legislation. Here are my objections:

1. We have a dangerous job/ People are trying to kill us.

You most certainly do and they most certainly are. However, I feel safe in making the statement that most police officers are targeted in their own community, not while they are vacationing elsewhere in the country. I would be surprised if there was a pattern of police officers being assassinated while on vacation.

Additionally, you come across as being insensitive to the plight of the non-LEO when you make such a statement. For every violent criminal you have encountered, there is a victim of a violent crime (probably several) who was probably not an LEO. You have dealt with the aftermath of many of these encounters. Many non-LEO's, especially those on this forum, are no different from you in their desire to be able to act in defense of themselves or others.

2. This is a stepping stone to National CCW.

There is no basis to believe such a statement. The majority of law enforcement organizations are anti-gun/anti-ccw. Off-duty CCW for police in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago and dozens of other juridictions has never led to other citizens being afforded the same ability. (On a side note, those of you who support citizens' rights to own firearms/carry concealed need to do a better job of policing the organizations that represent your profession.)

3. It does not create a special class of citizen.

Sure it does. It allows you to do something that most people are not permitted to do. Why deny it? This is not the first piece of legislation to do so and it will not be the last. There is a class of people who can drink, buy firearms, prescribe medication, fly a plane, etc. while others can not. It may not be fair, it may not be Constitutional, but it is how things are. Our elected officials found you worthy of being entrusted with this privelage. If people do not like it, they should take it up with their elected official.

Until the public's perception changes and there is a general realization that firearms proficiency is not the exclusive perview of law enforcement and that armed citizens do have an impact on crime we will not see a national CCW. Those of you who take issue with this law need to work to change these perceptions.

 

[lostone1413]

You really think it is about crime?? To me it is the start of a police state not some of are leaders are wanting the UN to monitor are election in Nov. To agree with the bill you have to think that 1- LEOs are more honest then 95% of us Non-LEOs 2- You have to believe that their life and the life of their family is more important then your life and the life of your family Hello can anyone see the forest through all the trees???????????

 

[lostone1413]

Forgot some of the points you made 1- True their job is dangerous but so are allot of jobs. Spent 15 years in the Ironworkers bet not many LEOs have seen as many of the ones they work with get busted up or killed as I have. 2- As far as a stepping stone for a national CCW Go to www.keepandbeararms.com see how many want to keep the AWB and are against the Non_LEO having a CCW 3- We are a Republic are right is in the bill of rights as if that means anything anymore. One reason for the 2nd was to protect you from goverment officials That is what LEOs are

 

[The Real Mad Max]

cordex

There you go again putting words into my mouth. Pendantic.

I'll try one more time.

HR 218 is good legislation. PERIOD. It keeps guns in the hands of good guys. PERIOD.

I never said I was against national CCW for ANYONE that qualifies. PERIOD. That is keeping guns in the hands of good guys. PERIOD.

How much clearer can I make that?

Blackhawk 6: Truly a voice of reason. Thank you!


lostone1413: Be careful. With that kind of reasoning, you'll be making Reynolds Wrap happy. Thats the same kind of paranoid illogic that Kenshumstein uses...

 

[cordex]

There you go again putting words into my mouth. Pendantic.

I'm not putting words in your mouth if you said them, am I?

HR 218 is good legislation. PERIOD. It keeps guns in the hands of good guys. PERIOD.

Oh certainly, it does put guns into the hands of a few good guys. Which is all well and good for those particular good guys. But the chances of one of those good guys being around to save me are about as good as ... well ... the chances that a cop will be around to save me. In other words, possible but unlikely. Which is exactly why I carry a weapon in the first place - because I don't expect police (in state, out of state, on duty, retired, whatever) to *poof* into existance wherever I'm having a problem and come save me.

As I said in my first reply to you, I support police being given national CCW. I don't care for the special class of people being created through the law. Period.

I wonder how you'd feel about a law that gave CCW holders (and former CCW holders) national carry but specifically excluded police. In that case, some good guys would still be carrying guns. Somehow, I'd bet that you'd Kerry out and oppose that kind of legislation. And I'd have to join you in your opposition because it'd have exactly the same problems as the current law.

 

[atek3]

This thread needs more "GeneC" to go along with FedDC and The Real Mad Max to tow the government's line.

"Stepping Stone for carry by all". Uh huh, and I got a great piece of waterfront property for sale.

Considering the factoid that cops shoot innocent people at a rate of five times non-police officers (10 percent vs. 2 percent), perhaps we would be safer with national ccw for non-LEO only.

atek3

 

[lostone1413]

Think them white coats are for people who think that a LEO is more law abiding then they other 95% of non-leos out their Let them pass a law making it illegal for non-leos to have guns and see how many of them good leos come in your home to take your guns away. As I said this is a first step to a police state. As I said before true their is danger in their jobs but allot of jobs are a heck of allot more dangerous. I Phoenix about a week ago watching a story about a LEO in Boston who was training and his horse fell on him and he got hurt. Couldn't help but wonder how many of us peons just in the Phoenix area in the last 24hr got hurt way worst but it won't even be in the local paper.

 

[EricOKC]

The Real Mad Max,

you said:

Sadly, it just sounds more and more like a case of sour grapes...

Well yes, it is sour grapes. We are quite irritated that people like you, who are supposed to be public servants, see nothing wrong with the general public being disarmed while you carry anywhere you damn well please, simply by virtue of the fact that you wear, or once wore, a badge.

 

[The Real Mad Max]

We are quite irritated that people like you, who are supposed to be public servants, see nothing wrong with the general public being disarmed while you carry anywhere you damn well please, simply by virtue of the fact that you wear, or once wore, a badge.

Either you CAN'T read or WON'T read. Either way, its shows you to be intellectually challenged. And that is something I can't do anything about.

I suggest you <Art Edit> go back and reread my posts. If you are capable.

 

[The Real Mad Max]

cordex said:

As I said in my first reply to you, I support police being given national CCW. I don't care for the special class of people being created through the law.

Whatever.

 

[cordex]

Whatever.

Speaking of pedantic ...

 

[WonderNine]

I can't see how this will help national CCW for us peons as FedDC is already making excuses as to why police organizations won't help with it. "Because a small number of people were against LEO ONLY national CCW, the police organizations won't push for national CCW for all citizens." It's enough to make you hurl.

That's why the government slavemasters always win though. They turn us citizens against each other everytime.

 

[Muzzleflash]

Remember guys- just because CCW legislation isn't "perfect" or doesn't satisfy you by covering everything at once doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen.

It's called incrementalism, and it's how we lost most of our rights- and it's the surest way to retake them.

 

[cordex]

It's called incrementalism, and it's how we lost most of our rights- and it's the surest way to retake them.

I don't know that I can agree here.
Police departments have nearly always been exempt to some extent from just about every gun law. I note that their ability to obtain tax-exempt NFA weapons and post '86 machine guns have done nothing to change those laws for the better. Assuming the AWB sunsets in September, I don't see it's sunset as the result of incrementalism by giving police the ability to obtain post '94 Semi-automatic Assault Weapons. What's more, police lobbying organizations (including many of which lobbied for LEO carry exemption) have long supported anti-gun laws for everyone else.

I hope that it does turn out to be useful, but I don't see it yet.

 

[The Real Mad Max]

cordex

Speaking of pedantic ...

Well, I had to put it in terms that you would understand.

 

[mrapathy2000]

 

[The Real Mad Max]

So true!